Thanks, I appreciate the comments. We worked hard to make this a balanced race, so it is nice to see that for the most part, other people feel that it is balanced.
As I said, I've played the drylf druid for over two years now (she's still only level 7) and her druid abilities are the only balance problem we've seen. Her racial attributes have been great role playing opportunities, but rarely even factor into a battle. And when they do, they are usually negative. By far the most common racial factor to come into play is the con penalty for being underground or indoors. She's just been in nothing but underground campaigns since she started.... sigh. She's in one now in fact.
can someone point me to a pdf of this?
I don't think there is one, but it would definitely be a nice addition to the Pathfinder family...
Especially a pdf with a bunch of abilities and the points they add to the race build right in there... Maybe a couple of example races built with the rules... I'd be more than happy to build one for addition... Not that that's a huge incentive... :p
Just a thought for all those more pdf technically inclined... ;)
I think this is a great resource. I'd love to see it pdfed and published as a PF addon.
|
Reach is mostly a pain to deal with when you have tactics-savvy players. Getting an attack of opportunity on anything that tries to get adjacent to you that isn't a Cirque de Soleil performer is a pretty big benefit, since they can't free-action 5' step in any turn they move. Opponents who do manage to close but for some reason want to leave can't Withdraw, as they don't leave a threatened space for a non-threatened space. Stand Still becomes a pain there... though wisely, Stand Still specifies that it only works on attacks of opportunity in adjacent squares, so it doesn't prevent charging foes from actually closing in on you.
Cleave and Whirlwind Attack get more complex. Also, not a lot of monsters or NPCs invest in the Strike Back feat.
So basically; making it more manageable would mean a change to the way AoOs are provoked.
Admittedly, this does hose opposing spellcasters more than anyone else, and that may not be a bad thing from your perspective. It's just a level of complexity that probably doesn't need to be added at level 1; by level 10 (or maybe even 6), magic items, spell effects and feats can muddy the waters to the point where it's probably more manageable.
I think I'd dislike the change at low levels, and like it at about level 5 or 7.
Yeah reach is a really big deal for melee characters, especially if you don't have to spend a feat to get it and can use it with a one-handed weapon. It doubles the area a medium/small character threatens with a one-handed weapon. If they pick up a reach weapon and use spiked armor they then go up to 15ft reach which triples the area they threaten.
If small races only had 2.5 ft reach they would need some serious boosts in other areas to be balanced with medium characters who have a 5ft reach. They'd provoke AoOs every time they tried to attack most creatures.I suppose if small creatures had higher bonuses to AC (maybe specifically vs AoOs) or something like that then it might be worth it. Or even make it so that if they move close enough to attack another creature, then that creature can only use natural or light weapons to attack them back.
Hmm. It's still something that I think is worth pursuing; as it's always bugged me how the small medium difference isn't consistent with the other size differences, and I frankly really like the big size races like minotaurs and dragonkin (not dragonborn) and trolls. Though this lets me know it would be a bigger change than I thought it would to make this both more consistent and less of a power gap. It basically answers my question about size. Only the reach is a powerful factor in size modifiers.
So if you remove the reach from what you get when you go up in size, It's little to no power boost. (unless it comes with big stat mods)
Reach is mostly a pain to deal with when you have tactics-savvy players. Getting an attack of opportunity on anything that tries to get adjacent to you that isn't a Cirque de Soleil performer is a pretty big benefit, since they can't free-action 5' step in any turn they move. Opponents who do manage to close but for some reason want to leave can't Withdraw, as they don't leave a threatened space for a non-threatened space. Stand Still becomes a pain there... though wisely, Stand Still specifies that it only works on attacks of opportunity in adjacent squares, so it doesn't prevent charging foes from actually closing in on you.
Cleave and Whirlwind Attack get more complex. Also, not a lot of monsters or NPCs invest in the Strike Back feat.
So basically; making it more manageable would mean a change to the way AoOs are provoked.
Admittedly, this does hose opposing spellcasters more than anyone else, and that may not be a bad thing from your perspective. It's just a level of complexity that probably doesn't need to be added at level 1; by level 10 (or maybe even 6), magic items, spell effects and feats can muddy the waters to the point where it's probably more manageable.I think I'd dislike the change at low levels, and like it at about level 5 or 7.
...Yeah reach is a really big deal for melee characters, especially if you don't have to spend a feat to get it and can use it with a one-handed weapon. It doubles the area a medium/small character threatens with a one-handed weapon. If they pick up a reach weapon and use spiked armor they then go up to 15ft reach which triples the area they threaten.
If small races only had 2.5 ft reach they would need some serious boosts in other areas to be balanced with medium characters who have a 5ft reach. They'd provoke AoOs every time they tried to attack most creatures.I suppose if small creatures had higher bonuses to AC (maybe specifically vs AoOs) or something like that then it might be worth it. Or
Also keep in mind the extra damage large characters get to do with their bigger weapons. The difference between a greatsword doing 1d10(S) vs 2d6(M) vs 3d6(L) gets to be a big disparity and makes small characters even less attractive as fighters.
Although, I guess the tradeoff is a difference of +2AC, +2Atk though. It's a 52% increase in base damage versus a boost to AC and better chance to hit. It may still be balanced if it's enough of a boost for the small character to hit more often and take less damage.
so how does this race sound to you guys:
+2dex +2 cha -2 str -2 wis
medium size
base speed 40ft
aberation type augmented humanoid
darkvision 60ft
scent
-2 to bluff, diplomacy, disguise, and intimidate
-8 handle animal
+2 survival and perception
I was going for an artificial humanoid solider. I see them having issues with interacting with people but having a fierce personality. also they are meant to be unnatural hence the hefty handle animal penalty
so here is the point break down i have
base stats start at
+2 dex +2 cha -2 str
-2 wis -4 points
base speed 40ft 8pts
aberration type augmented humanoid don't know on this one so +1 for fairly basic protection stuff aka no "blank" humanoid spells
darkvision 6oft 2 points
scent 4 pts
-2 to social skills -2 pts
-8 handle animal -2pts
+2 to sur. and per. +2 pts
which brings us to 9 point race
so what do you guys think is it balanced or is it to minmaxy?
btw, if some one could tell me how to put bulletins in my post that would be awesome
Please help me classify the following "drawback":
You only heal half the normal hitpoints from healing spells (including potions). Likewise Regeneration requires double the normale time (e.g. 2 minutes instead of 1).
Option a) Natural regeneration remains unchanged.
Option b) Natural regeneration takes double the normal time, but regenration is very good (no scars etc.).
|
|
Except when you go from 2d6 to 3d6, the bonus damage from size equates to being a +2 in potential damage, or +1 average damage. Monkeygrip in 3.5 looked beastly, but having seen some threads on ENWorld with some number crunching, it's a much crappier feat than 3.x Power Attack (which I found to be pretty terrible in 3.x).
|
|
Also, it's worth noting that the odds of you getting the extreme highs or lows go down substantially with 3d6 than with 2d6.
It shifts the average damage from 7 to 10.5, and weights it more heavily toward the middle (but gives a larger number of possibilities)
Here's one with all the die types before you go into ridiculous sizes.
Pathfinder Die Progression
Average Damage:
1d2: 1.5
1d3: 2
1d4: 2.5
1d6: 3.5
1d8: 4.5
1d10: 5.5
1d12: 6.5 / 2d6: 7
*1d14: 7.5 / 1d6+1d8: 8
*1d16: 8.5 / 2d8: 9
3d6: 10.5 / 1d8+1d10: 10
One with these new numbers
Unless you were using a d12 or 2d6 weapon, you're either looking at 1 average extra damage per hit (excluding the d3). If you're a Minotaur with a Greataxe, you're getting 3 extra damage each hit, over the human with a greataxe. that human is getting 1.5 extra damage over the gnome with a greataxe and the minotaur vs the gnome is getting a full 4.5 extra damage.
2d6->3d6 is the roadbump. and really, the next step after 2d6 shouldn't be 3d6 (keeping with the other pattern), logically it should go 1d12, 1d14, 1d16 (but few people have d14s or d16s) or at least 2d6 -> 1d6+1d8 -> 2d8 -> 1d8+1d10 -> 2d10.
I dont see it being changed. It may even be a sacred cow. Just realized why the numbers are so wonky at the upper end while I was in the shower. 2d6 -> 3d6 is really about 3 jumps up, not one (in terms of damage difference).
If the damage increase followed this more consistent pattern, I don't think it would be a big deal to have large creatures in your party. The only *Problem* would be reach.
I think this will be making its way into my houserules document for my next campaign.
VoodooMike.
I have a Question, how many points would Damage Reduction 1/cold iron cost, or is Damage reduction of any kind for balanced races a no no?
I have been using it to retool races from DragonStar for my Pathfinder game, and it's been going smoothly.
How did you do the 'ooze' race and the mage touched(phesthani?) ?
VoodooMike.
I have a Question, how many points would Damage Reduction 1/cold iron cost, or is Damage reduction of any kind for balanced races a no no?
I'm not VoodooMike, however I was just looking over something on the first page and he mentions that DR 1 / Anything is worth 4 pts. He cites several feats that the do something similiar to this and anything that duplicates a feat should be worth 4 pts.
Bumped for my own selfish reasons.
Adjusting/Pathfinderizing a few things from Dawnforge, and elsewhere.
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex (4 pts for two physical bonuses)
Medium
Base land speed 30 ft, move 2.5x land speed when charging (1 pt, ad hoc trivial)
Low-light vision (1 pt)
+2 on Perception checks (1 pt)
Can never be lost, never flat-footed, immune to Maze (2-4 pts, depending on judgment of value)So depending on whether that last ability (the main advantage of which is the never flat-footed part, so basically Uncanny Dodge) is half a feat or a full feat, it looks like 9-11 points. Then again, if we're back and forth between 9 and 11, maybe that means it's perfectly fine and I can let it be?
I'm ok with 4 points to grant them uncanny dodge but never flat-footed is more powerful than uncanny dodge.(...cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.)
Plus, as Uncanny Dodge, it gives synergy with Rogue and Barbarian levels.As far as never lost and immune to Maze, I'd call that 1 pt probably.
12 point race IMO.
Lizardfolk (10 total)+2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Land Speed 30 ft, Swim Speed 40 ft. (4 pts)
+2 Knowledge (Nature) and Survival (2 points)
+1 natural armor to AC (4 pts)
Hold Breath (1 pt)
Low-light Vision (1 pt)
No Heavy Armor (-2 pt)Lizardfolk Variant (10 total)
No Heavy Armor is at best a -1pt. It's trivial. It's also unclear. What happens when they wear heavy armor? Take damage, become fatigued/exhausted, can't move?
11pt race
Small
Land Speed 30
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
+2 Acrobatics, Swim, Stealth(3 pts)
+1 Natural Armor (4 pts)
Hold Breath (1 pt)
Low-light Vision (1 pt)
Poison Use (1 pt)
This one looks good to me.
Not sure what you mean by +1 average damage on all weapons. If you just mean +1 damage then I think this is basically balanced.Does anyone think an ability that basically grants all bonuses AND penalties except for the space and reach increase of a large creature to a medium sized creature would work within the boundaries of these guidelines, and should it cost something?That has been talked about quite a bit (powerful build). I believe that many cane to the conclusion that it is worth 10,000 points, in other words, never without a level adjustment.Isn't powerful build only the advantages of large size (bigger weapons, better CMD and CMB, etc.)?
I'm talking about having both the advantages AND disadvantages, sans reach. So that would be:
+4 CMB/CMD
-1 AC
-1 Attack
+1 average damage on all weapons
-4 to stealth checks
5 foot reach/5 space
Kind of a delayed response, but yeah I mean +1 on the average die-roll for weapon damage, as these creatures use larger size weapons.
I'm talking about having both the advantages AND disadvantages, sans reach. So that would be:
+4 CMB/CMD
-1 AC
-1 Attack
+1 average damage on all weapons
-4 to stealth checks
5 foot reach/5 spaceMake the space 10 feet, the reach remains 5 feet, their armor costs more/weighs more (they can carry it thanks to Large's carrying capacity multiplier), THEY weigh more, and they have to squeeze (i.e. take penalties) in order to fit in normal passages (a side effect of a 10' space). Then they might start feeling the sting... Think of it this way, it's just like being under Enlarge Person all the time, minus the reach. Which would generally still be awesome, because, well, you could still drink an Enlarging potion.
BTW, Large says it's simply +1 to CMB/CMD, not +4.
Relevant Section
Yeah the CMB/D thing is my bad.
I find 10 feet space to be quite an advantage in a lot of combat situations as you can basically block an entire 10 foot corridor or make it hard for enemies to pass you even in a 20 foot corridor without taking AoOs so I think I will go with this
+1 CMB/CMD
-1 AC
-1 Attack
+1 average damage on all weapons
-4 to stealth checks
-2 to fly checks
5 foot reach/5 space
Both races already have the drawback that they can't wear armour that is not specifically crafted to fit their race.
lots of good thingsThanks for the feedback,I just wanted to doublecheck a couple things though.
I'm not sure how "never flat-footed" is better than uncanny dodge. After all, never flat-footed doesn't mean never loses dex to AC, just in the specific situation of being caught before their first action in the first round. They're still vulnerable to invisibility (unlike Uncanny Dodge, and weaker) and the whole host of other ways to still deny someone their dex bonus to AC.
As for the heavy armor, they're just unable to wear it. Unable to put it on at all, not even custom-tailored. I'll admit it's a bit odd but that's part of what comes with me adapting instead of working from scratch. I gauged it at -2 based on an earlier post gauging custom, increased price heavy armor at -1, but you may be right that this is trivial as well. That said, for the specific game I run, I'm okay with 11 pt races. YMMV. Thanks again.
That first one is supposed to be minotaur, by the way, I just mixed it up in editing.
Went back and re-read uncanny dodge after your comments. You're right. Never flat-footed is not as powerful as uncanny dodge. Thinking about it, Uncanny Dodge gives more than most feats so it's probably more like a 6-8pt ability. Never flat-footed still feels like an ability of a power level about equal to a feat though.
Anybody else have an opinion on that?Nothing wrong with 11pt races IMO. Close enough to be a negligible difference.
Too good of a resource to let it fall off the page. *bump*
|
|
I just went through and did the Halfling and... well I'm hoping I missed something, either in the race itself or in this thread (I did check before posting but I still could've missed it.)
Halfling
+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str (0 pts)
Small Size(0 pts)
Base Speed 20 ft (-4 pts)
+1 to All Saves (4 pts)
+2 on Saves vs. Fear (1 pt)
Weapon Familiarity (1 pt, and barely worth that)
+2 Climb, Acrobatics, Stealth (3 pts)And... that's it. Halflings are a 5 pt race? They seem relatively popular with my players and I haven't seen them as underbalanced before. Is this just an instance where the math isn't 100% accurate and sometimes judgment calls have to be made, they come out better than they look, or do halflings seriously deserve a feat and then a little extra worth of extra abilities?
Personally, I give them back the +1 on attack rolls with thrown weapons from 3.5
I gave Halflings +1 Atk and Dmg with slings and thrown weapons in my campaign.
I just went through and did the Halfling and... well I'm hoping I missed something, either in the race itself or in this thread (I did check before posting but I still could've missed it.)
Halfling
+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Str (0 pts)
Small Size(0 pts)
Base Speed 20 ft (-4 pts)
+1 to All Saves (4 pts)
+2 on Saves vs. Fear (1 pt)
Weapon Familiarity (1 pt, and barely worth that)
+2 Climb, Acrobatics, Stealth (3 pts)And... that's it. Halflings are a 5 pt race? They seem relatively popular with my players and I haven't seen them as underbalanced before. Is this just an instance where the math isn't 100% accurate and sometimes judgment calls have to be made, they come out better than they look, or do halflings seriously deserve a feat and then a little extra worth of extra abilities?
It is a lot of Judgement calls and there are many people who have devoted threads to the idea that the Halfling is underpowered.
Also, I would count a +1 to thrown weapons as 2 points. The race's Weapon Familiarity trait is worth 0 or 1 at most and they grant 4 Feats sometimes.
My friend wants to make rules for a Pathfinder Changeling. I don't quite know how to go about this, given these guidelines, as there are many things to do with this...
Starting point: +2 to any one stat
Small or Medium (chosen at creation, 0 pts)
And then: the stat that gains a +2 must be physical (-1 or -2 penalty?)
+ 2 to charisma (4 pts)
disguise self 3/day (4 pts?)
So that's 6 or 7 points...
Skill focus (player's choice) or something like that?
Brings it to either 10 or 11 points, depending.
So +2 to one physical, +2 Charisma
Disguise self 3/day
Skill focus (whatever)
How's that look?
Trying to alter Hobgoblins slightly to be a valid PC race.
+2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Wis (4 pts)
Darkvision 60 ft (2 pts)
Weapon Familiarity (Longsword, Longbow, Flail, Heavy Flail) (1 pt)And... something? I never especially liked their skill bonuses so those are gone. I was considering Shield Focus as a bonus feat for a martial culture focused on phalanx-style fighting but it seems like it locks the race into one style waaaaaaay too strongly. I'm perfectly happy with them hitting 11 pts, so long as they don't go to 12, so... any ideas, folks?
+2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Wis is actually 6 pts because you have +2 to two stats in the same category (8pts) and -2 to a stat with no bonuses in the category (-2pts).
+2 to any physical, +2 Charisma is more like negating a stat penalty, since your standard set-up would be +2 Physical +2 Mental -2 Any, really.I'd do something like
+2 Charisma (Weirdly, that actually COSTS more than +2 to Any Stat would, sooo I'd ad hoc it at say -2 points)
Disguise Self 3/day (6 pts)
Skill Focus (Player's Choice) (4 pts)
+2 Bluff and Disguise (2 pts)
Vurr cool. It fits the feel of it and I'd say is pretty well balanced (enough for casual play, at any rate. After all, even the Paizo core races aren't perfectly balanced.)
Only thing is, though, do we feel like this pigeonholes into rogue, bard, or w/e? Because it's important for races not to pigeonhole, IMO.
Right. They at least have potential to branch out. Of course...with the new "Eldritch Heritage" feats in Ultimate Magic, they could use their charisma bonus and free skill focus to qualify without pumping Cha, and then make a much weirder, more magick'ed version of whatever class they are.
This is suitable. I guess I'll see if he thinks so. Hah.
Only thing is, though, do we feel like this pigeonholes into rogue, bard, or w/e? Because it's important for races not to pigeonhole, IMO.ihmo, yes it's to focussed around disguise. 3 out of 4 traits focus on it with the 4th being optional.
I would change the skill bonuses to something not social related.
Thanks for the input. Dunno what skills I would use though. That's kind of the problem with the Changeling. They're reaally good at disguise. So it's easy to focus primarily on that, while I'm sure there's something else they could get...
Looking at this again, anyone know what page has the most up-to date guide?
Thanks
I didn't see any other chart other than the OP.
What do you think of this?
Beast Blooded Human
+2 to any one physical stat (-2)
-2 to Int (-4)
bonus feat of choice (8 pts)
+1 skill point per level (2 pts)
Lycan Conditions (-2)
-Silver Vulnerability: x2 damage (+100%)
-Sickened Carrying Silver (Includes coins, excludes mithral)
-Sickened when struck by silver: Fort Save DC 5 + 1/2 damage dealt (rounded down).
-When sickened, nauseated, fatigued, or exhausted dispell spell-like ability Beast Shift.
-Lycan Blooded: Count as a lycanthropic whenever it is to their disadvantage, which includes things like favored enemies, bane weapons, etc.
(Sp) Beast Shift: (8)
Indefinably take on a form that is slightly more beast like in nature. It is a move action to activate this power, but can be dismissed, at any time, with no action.
Can be dispelled as a magical effect. Its spell level is equal to 1+ 1/4 of the character's hit die. Caster level is equal to hit die.
+2 to one other physical score; excluding one that already has a racial bonus.
+4 Circumstance bonus to Disguise
Low Light Vision
I think you're being a bit opportunistic when applying negative point values to the stats. You're using the human +2 to a stat of choice as base, and then declaring negative values to turn it into the non-human stat distribution, when in reality what you have is the non-human stat distribution with the *benefit* of being able to choose the physical stat that gets the bonus, and the loss of the bonus to the mental stat.
While I would personally be opposed to playing halfsies on the stat system, my point value for the stat system (+2 to a physical stat of choice, and -2 to int) would be 0 not -6 - I'd treat it as the non-human stat setup, and trade the +2 to the mental stat for the benefit of choosing the physical stat that you get a bonus to.
Again, I'd avoid mix-and-match with the stat system altogether. Static stat bonuses and penalties don't have any place in the human stat bonus paradigm, only the non-human distribution of adjustments.
As for "Beast Shift" it doesn't make much sense to have it a spell-like ability if its a natural part of what they are, rather than a magical effect. The changeling's disguise-self ability was, for example, an Ex not Sp or Su ability. Since the idea behind the race is that its semi-lycanthropic, it seems strange that their ability to change form is magical, but their vulnerabilities are not.
Shape changing should be a full-round action, or a standard action at the very quickest. Reversion should be some sort of action.. making it a non-action removes the necessity of thinking about which form you're in at any given time.
Does "Beast Shift" give a bonus to a stat chosen at character creation, or chosen each time they use it? If its an "at use" decision then its more powerful than if its static.
My suggestion is to look at the Eberron Shifter race as a template for what you're trying to do, and accept that you're not going to be fitting the "feat of your choice" in with any sort of impressive racial abilities if you want to make an LA0 race that is actually balanced against the existing races.
I think you're being a bit opportunistic when applying negative point values to the stats. You're using the human +2 to a stat of choice as base, and then declaring negative values to turn it into the non-human stat distribution, when in reality what you have is the non-human stat distribution with the *benefit* of being able to choose the physical stat that gets the bonus, and the loss of the bonus to the mental stat.
While I would personally be opposed to playing halfsies on the stat system, my point value for the stat system (+2 to a physical stat of choice, and -2 to int) would be 0 not -6 - I'd treat it as the non-human stat setup, and trade the +2 to the mental stat for the benefit of choosing the physical stat that you get a bonus to.
Again, I'd avoid mix-and-match with the stat system altogether. Static stat bonuses and penalties don't have any place in the human stat bonus paradigm, only the non-human distribution of adjustments.
Sigh, so are you saying don't do what I want it to do, and that there are, and shouldn't be a minus to the points? In short I don't understand. If you are alright with the idea of a restriction to a stat of choice and it giving back some reduction in race trait costs, what would you suggest?
As for "Beast Shift" it doesn't make much sense to have it a spell-like ability if its a natural part of what they are, rather than a magical effect. The changeling's disguise-self ability was, for example, an Ex not Sp or Su ability. Since the idea behind the race is that its semi-lycanthropic, it seems strange that their ability to change form is magical, but their vulnerabilities are not.
The idea is that the magic behind their shape change is weaker, it has degraded from Su to Sp. In 3.5 there was a feat to make Sp abilities into Su, so the reverse I thought would be alright. Why would their vulnerabilities be magical in any form. Dragons vulnerablies? No other race has it?
Shape changing should be a full-round action, or a standard action at the very quickest. Reversion should be some sort of action.. making it a non-action removes the necessity of thinking about which form you're in at any given time.
Changing into the form as a standard action is fine, I don't think that is that much of an issue, however making changing back anything from instant causes problems. As the ability can be removed from other people and other means it can happen at any time it makes sense for simplicity as then you need to deal with what happens action wise when forced back. What's to stop someone from just tossing the silver piece to a beast blooded just so that they can transform back instantly so go back quicker. Perhaps immediate action would be fine, and just make it that they forcefully lost their next swift action, but then what happens if they already used an immediate action?
Does "Beast Shift" give a bonus to a stat chosen at character creation, or chosen each time they use it? If its an "at use" decision then its more powerful than if its static.
The bonuses are static from creation.
How would you score beast shape and lycan conditions?
A quick check has found that changelings shape-changing is (Su) not (Ex), which I assume is to keep it in line with the doppleganger special ability which remains (Su) in pathfinder. I find either to be clunky, personally, since it means that these natural shape-shifters lose their form in an anti-magic field.
Spell-like abilities provoke attacks of opportunity, meaning your race will be making concentration checks to "shift defensively". It just seems like a bad choice of mechanics. Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.
As to my objection on the stats, I'm saying this: the choice of a stat for the +2 bonus is a human thing. Only humans and races that are largely human (direct half-breeds, for example) have this, and it is never paired with any other sort of stat changing, even if the other half of that race (orcs or elves) normally have adjustments. If you want to play up the human aspect, go with "+2 to any stat", and if you're trying to play up the non-human aspect, specify the stats that get adjusted... don't try to mix and match to get bonus points to spend elsewhere.
If, however, you insist on doing so (its your game) then you should start from the non-human stat system and work from there, and in that case I see it being 0 points total, rather than -6 as you have scored it.
I think permanent shape-changing that actually gives benefits is probably an overall bad idea. If you look at the Shifter race from eberron, it was limited in the number of times/rounds it could maintain its shifted form, but the shifted form gave specific benefits to the player. Your design begs the question: "why would you ever NOT be shifted?" since the shifted form last as long as the player wants and gives a bonus to stats, but no penalty. Also, why is it imperative that they can shift back as a free action?
Additionally, Shifters were considered to be a powerful and popular race in the eberron setting, but they had LIMITED shifting ability, and none of the benefits of being human (no feat choice, no bonus skill points).
As for vulnerabilities... if the lycanthropic blood has weakened, as you've said, why have the vulnerabilities become so much worse? Pathfinder lycanthropes aren't especially vulnerable to silver beyond it being what overcomes their damage resistance. Your race treats silver like kryptonite. That said, silver does not represent a huge vulnerability as the only people who HAVE silver weapons are people who are specifically hunting lycanthropes and the rare creature where such things are needed to overcome DR. Alchemical silver weapons are WORSE than normal weapons, so unlike most special materials there's never any reason to use that material on your favourite weapons "just in case". It's also far more likely that adventurers would have such weapons as an "in case" thing, than the enemies adventurers will face, making it extra unlikely for a character to face them.
Look at the stats from the standpoint of non-human:
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int = +4 points (to swap the mental bonus to a physical stat)
+2 to choice of physical, +2 to choice of physical, -2 Int = +2 points by your estimate (-6 stats, +8 "shifting")
Regardless of whether it can be dispelled temporarily (since it lasts indefinitely and can be done any number of times with a move action in your original design) its basically an all-the-time stat bonus. I'm not even tossing in the +4 disguise bonus in the calculation.
When held up against a normal human, your beast-blooded human seems more powerful, and the point weighting on the stats doesn't fly for me. As always, its your game - do whatever you want.
A quick check has found that changelings shape-changing is (Su) not (Ex), which I assume is to keep it in line with the doppleganger special ability which remains (Su) in pathfinder. I find either to be clunky, personally, since it means that these natural shape-shifters lose their form in an anti-magic field.
Spell-like abilities provoke attacks of opportunity, meaning your race will be making concentration checks to "shift defensively". It just seems like a bad choice of mechanics. Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.
As to my objection on the stats, I'm saying this: the choice of a stat for the +2 bonus is a human thing. Only humans and races that are largely human (direct half-breeds, for example) have this, and it is never paired with any other sort of stat changing, even if the other half of that race (orcs or elves) normally have adjustments. If you want to play up the human aspect, go with "+2 to any stat", and if you're trying to play up the non-human aspect, specify the stats that get adjusted... don't try to mix and match to get bonus points to spend elsewhere.
If, however, you insist on doing so (its your game) then you should start from the non-human stat system and work from there, and in that case I see it being 0 points total, rather than -6 as you have scored it.
I think permanent shape-changing that actually gives benefits is probably an overall bad idea. If you look at the Shifter race from eberron, it was limited in the number of times/rounds it could maintain its shifted form, but the shifted form gave specific benefits to the player. Your design begs the question: "why would you ever NOT be shifted?" since the shifted form last as long as the player wants and gives a bonus to stats, but no penalty. Also, why is it imperative that they can shift back as a free action?
Additionally, Shifters were considered to be a powerful and popular race in the eberron setting, but they had LIMITED shifting ability, and none of the benefits of being human (no feat choice, no bonus...
Thanks for your feedback. I did forget to add a duration to the sickened effects and time to change back after being forced out of beast shift, it should be an hour but I am open to suggestions.
All lycanthropes lose the ability to change shape, as the ability is Su and all Su abilities do not function in an anti-magic field.
As to your objection to a "+2 to any one physical stat" that seems more like a personal restriction. Yeah it has not been done, yet. I see this likely happening in the future once Paizo starts making a few more standard races. Lycanthropics are very divers and have favored physical stats that change between types.
I do understand that this race is stronger against non-intelligent and non civilized enemies, that is fine, thus why I added in the flat list of four conditions that could be caused by other means. However I can understand this point. However I am very aware of eberon shifters and others re-makes.
As to beast shift again, the way if figured it the ability to dispell the effect incurs a -2 cost here. As to the circumstance bonus to disguise, it is very circumstantial. It is by far weaker than a flat racial bonus to +2 to one skill. It is like wearing a custom mask, yeah it might hide your face a little, but if they know the owner that mask doesn't work to well, especially if no one else can use it. The low light yeah is 1 point, the +2 to same stat is a 8 point here.
P.S. Standing as is, with an hour having to wait to re-gain their spell like ability how would you price Lycan Conditions?
P.P.S. Nvm the P.S. just got an idea on addition of Wolfsbane to the list of effects. Beast Blooded are weaker, and thus have less resistances things that bother lycanthropes, while their powers are weaker, their negatives are still predominate.
Again, thank you very much for your help. I will count it as a 4 point cost to move bonus racial stat to to other category of same type. Taking that into account, how would you price these please.
I am most curious about the large capability to lost the +2 stat point, +4 circumstance bonus to disguise, and low light vision.
Lycan Conditions
-Silver Vulnerability: x2 (+100% damage)
-Sickened Carrying Silver: until dropped (Includes coins, excludes mithral)
-Sickened when struck by silver: Fort Save DC 5 + 1/2 damage dealt (rounded down). Sickened effect last for 1 hour. The effect is not accumulative.
-Sickened by wolfsbane. Walking through this herb or having it tossed on them causes them to be sicken, requiring a full round action to be wiped off after they are not standing in it. They are also sickened if they are within 30ft radios of burning wolfsbane. Sickened effect last for 1 hour. The effect is not accumulative.
-When sickened, nauseated, fatigued, or exhausted deactivate the spell-like ability Beast Shift.
-Lycan Blooded: Count as a shapechanger whenever it is to their disadvantage, which includes things like favored enemies, bane weapons, etc.
(Sp) Beast Shift:
Indefinably take on a form that is slightly more beast like in nature. It is a full round to change forms, but can be dismissed as an immediate action. Dismissing as an immediate action or being forced to back to a normal humanoid form makes activating this ability impossible for 1 hour.
Can be dispelled as a magical effect. Its spell level is equal to 1+ 1/4 of the character's hit die. Caster level is equal to hit die.
– +2 to one other physical score; excluding one that already has a racial bonus. This bonus is chosen at character creation, once chosen it cannot be changed.
– +4 Circumstance bonus to Disguise
– Low-Light Vision
I look forward to your opinion.
Sorry if I bothered, annoyed, or insulted you. Thanks for you time. I have been working on this pet project of mine for a very long time, and I guess I get a little too heated about it.
Never mind.
VoodooMike, i would appreciate your thoughts about a race i'm adapting/altering/etc... It's the firbolg, adjusted to be a LA 0 race (i.e, playable at first level). I've made extensive use of your guide for this, and i hope i achieve my intent.
firbolg
Firbolg Racial Traits
+4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: Firbolgs are physically mighty and perceptive, but are less coordinate and socially clumsy, specially when dealing with other sentient races.
Giant: Firbolgs are humanoids with the giant subtype.
Medium: Firbolgs are medium-size creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size (but see mighty physique below).
Speed: Firbolgs have a base speed of 30 feet.
Low-light Vision (Ex): Firbolgs can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
Mighty Physique: Firbolgs add a +1 racial bonus on all Combat Maneuver Defenses, and an additional +1 to grapple, due to their powerful bodies. However, outfits and armor costs increase by 50%, otherwise armor bonus to AC is reduced by -1 (minimum 0).
Practiced Healer: Firbolgs receive +2 racial bonus to all Heal checks.
Wilderness Blessing (Su): Firbolgs are permanently under an endure elements (self only) effect.
I intended to "create" a race of shy, kind humanoid, with a taste of true giants. I anxiously await your comments. =)
Hexen - I'm not annoyed or anything, I just don't read the forum each day, or every thread each day that I do, so sometimes it takes a while for me to get back to a thread in order to reply. If a thread gets dropped off the main page, it can take extra long, and this one often does.
I'd suggest you put the penalty to intelligence, and possibly some sort of other major incentive not to ALWAYS be in beast form, into your beast form ability. Regardless of how something prices out in points, it comes down to eyeballing abilities to see if they end up being unbalanced - the point system *helps* balance, but you can easily come up with something that is unbalanced while staying inside the point system.
Beast Shape is all bonuses, and has no duration. Because of that, there's little or no point to ever NOT being in beast shape. Give players a reason not to do so or the bonuses might as well just be constant and unrealted to any spell-like ability.
I don't really see a point in estimating prices on what you have listed... the vulnerabilities are a slew of strange vulnerabilities all to the same thing (just pick one and go with that.. vulnerabilities in pathfinder... or even D20... tend to be a single effect, not a list of effects) and the beast shape thing is, as I said, just a "no" on merit of being over complicated for what amounts to just a stat and skill bonus.
Ricardo - I price your firbolg out like so:
Stats (6 pts) -- upgrade to +4 (10 pts) add a -2 penalty to a new category (-4 pts)
Low-Light Vision (1 pt)
Practiced Healer (1 pt)
Mighty Physique:
+1 CMD (2 pts) - its like a +1 AC (4pts) but limited to combat maneuvers, so half that.
+1 Grapple (1 pt) - priced like a bonus versus a creature, though that may be low.
50% more expensive (-1 at most) - things that increase base equipment costs are trivial in general, as base item cost becomes trivial quickly as you gain levels.. remove the "or -1 ac" downside, or its definitely a 0 point flaw.
Endure Elements (4 pt) - may not have combat value, but there are feats that improve nothing but cold or hot envirionment resistance... this gives effective immunity to all but the most extreme environments. That's at least worthy of a feat equivalent.
Which gives me a total of 15 in current form.. so its a little bit much for a LA0 race, I'd say.