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We started Curse of the Crimson Throne in September 2008. We finished last night. One of our players from the start, Josh, quit and another, my own wife, made it clear that she wishes she had too.
For the most part I enjoyed it. Skeletons of Acarwall was the worst of it. (Not much into dungeon crawls I guess) I was ready to quit because of all of the complaining. We had one of our players drop out then. Supposedly school got to busy. But we got to the last module and I was truly excited. I guess I was the only one. I wanted to see how the story we've been a part of ended. But Josh quit. Kristi's big bad fighter got even more cowardly. People just didn't care I guess.
I'm done DMing for a while. Don't ask me to. I already told Scott I would do 2 sessions at SEIGE. (An upcoming convention in Chatanooga TN) Then I am done. Obviously people don't enjoy themselves when I DM. OK, maybe its not so obvious. I get it, it was a long campaign, but its was pretty selfish of people to bail at the end and to whine and complain when your character, easily the most powerful in the group and the one using the one artifact who could truly defeat the evil, gets targeted the most. Oh, byt the way, your character also has the most hit points, the highest AC and some of the best saving throws of the party.
I guess in today's world of video games and MMOs and maybe even 4e players expect their characters to not be challenged or even threatened. Sorry but there are no godmode cheats in D&D. You players go after and gang up on the toughest baddest monster in the room, why shouldn't the monsters do the same thing huh?
My thanks to Paizo for putting out such a great product. Other than a few editing/proofreading and layout issues, each and every module in this adventure path was well written and intriguing. As a DM I wanted to make Korvosa come alive. I guess I didn't do such a good job. It would help if people role played more and didn't leave it all up to me. Too many people played this like they were playing a video game. I wanted players to hate Ileosa, be charmed by Trinia, and dazzled by Blackjack. I tried to get them to redeem Cinnabar and get creeped out by the doctors. I was terrible at using it, but the Harrow deck was just an awesome accessory. Alas, it didn't happen.
We're starting Kingmaker next. Me and my wife and the DM. Maybe Josh will join us, I dunno. He seems to enjoy WoW more than D&D nowadays. We'll see.
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I'm sorry it didn't work out so well for you and your group. :(
My party is about half way through Scarwall, and yes, they're getting tired. It's been a long trek. We started with PF Beta back in Aug '08 and we played twice a month in the early days and it's been once a week since PF Final came out.
Damn, I'm sorry for you that the campaign didn't work out as you intended. I just begun my campaign and, to be honest, I am already a bit scared of the last third, since it seems like a constant dungeon crawl.
How did the first two thirds work out? Could your players connect to the NPCs and Korvosa? That might explain why they didn't like the rest very much.
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It's a shame your campaign didn't work out Orcsmasher. I tried to run Curse of the Crimson Throne for two groups. I'm still running it for one, but it didn't work out so well for the other.
Sometimes gaming loses its focus, which is primarily to socialize and have fun. If you accomplished those two things, then take it for the success it was. If not, then I hope your next game goes better.
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First, thank you to everyone for listening to me whine. It's not my nature to do so, but I needed to vent to a group of people who aren't in my normal circle of friends.
Damn, I'm sorry for you that the campaign didn't work out as you intended. I just begun my campaign and, to be honest, I am already a bit scared of the last third, since it seems like a constant dungeon crawl.
How did the first two thirds work out? Could your players connect to the NPCs and Korvosa? That might explain why they didn't like the rest very much.
Crown of Fangs actually wan't really a dungeon crawl at all. It would have gone quickly if outside things hadn't gotten in the way. Like Scott getting laid off etc. The hardest part I had was figuring out how the PCs got into the Sunken Queen.
I was able to pull off Sabine's redemption but like I said no one really wanted to play things out. Its a shame, a well written plot that can't be executed. Maybe Paizo should write novels based on the adventure paths starring the Iconics -hint hint!-
They connected early one, but by the end I think they just wanted to get done. Especically my wife. I think a majority of the problem was we started during the beta and did a hybrid switch and it made the PCs waaaay to powerful. That and my wife is a big coward when it comes to threatening her characters.
"Look at me! I got the artifact sword. It even changes to become a 2 handed sword like I normally use! What? You mean Serenthtial makes me a target? Why? Just because its the one weapon that can defeat Kazavon doesn't mean Ileosa and her miniosn should pick on me? That's not fair!"
OK, she's not quite that bad. But close. And her doing 100+ damage with a single hit (via a crit) is crazy. But I allowed it. I let Pandora open the box.
Please, please don't get me wrong. CotCT had a great story and interesting characters. But by the time we got to Scarwall people were just tired. We're about to start Kingmaker. Hopefully we can get another player. (If anyone in or near Athens TN wants to join let me know. Or if you know anybody let them know) If we experience more burnout then I'll have some suggestions for Paizo. I'll make one now though. The stories in the back of the module would be more interesting it 1) the chracters were the iconics and 2) they were the story of the adventure being played. Not so much of it needs to be played like this but that we we players can get a feel of the NPCs we interact with. Just an idea.
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It's a shame your campaign didn't work out Orcsmasher. I tried to run Curse of the Crimson Throne for two groups. I'm still running it for one, but it didn't work out so well for the other.
Sometimes gaming loses its focus, which is primarily to socialize and have fun. If you accomplished those two things, then take it for the success it was. If not, then I hope your next game goes better.
We definitely got the socializing part down. (LOL) We accomplished the goals of getting together and enjoying ourselves.
The next game will definitely go better for me since I am not DMing.
The next game will definitely go better for me since I am not DMing.
Having just come off a game from behind the screen DMing for a few whiney players, you'll be well-positioned to set a good example too as a model player. Keep your gripes in mind so you can help yourself and the other players avoid them from the player's side of the screen. I'm sure your DM will appreciate it even if he doesn't realize you're doing it or why.
I was one of the ones who said it at the time, so I'll say it again here: skip !$%!#$% Scarwall and just give the sword to the PCs as a result of fitting in with the Indians. Seriously, Scarwall's a great module, but it's a lot of grind for not a lot of reward, especially since the dungeon set-up requires doing almost the entire thing. If fatigue's an issue, pay attention to it and see what you can skip.
Well, to be fair to the module, it sounds a bit more like Orcsmashers group was simply tired of the entire campaign, rather than the dungeon grind. Or did I read that wrong?
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Having just come off a game from behind the screen DMing for a few whiney players, [...]
Yeah, that can definitely make for a very long campaign! I've got one in my group who likes to accidentally misinterpret the rules in her favor. Like combining natural attacks with flurry of blows to get 5 attacks per round at L10 or so. Sigh.
As a player, if I think the GM may be forgetting something or judging a rule wrong, I will speak up once -- and only once. It's just a reminder, and the GM decides one way or the other. But there are so many players who prefer to hash it out to the Nth degree -- during the game session! :(
Have fun as a player!
I like Scarwall and will probably run it.
It seems cool. Living dungeon! Gigantic maps!
But players who don't understand how the game works (I'm a fighter! ...why is everyone trying to fight me!?) are generally annoying. I'm sorry!
I guess the best you can do is play for a while and hope the new GM sucks so your old players will want to come back to you :P
I kid.
I like Scarwall and will probably run it.
It seems cool. Living dungeon! Gigantic maps!
But players who don't understand how the game works (I'm a fighter! ...why is everyone trying to fight me!?) are generally annoying. I'm sorry!
I guess the best you can do is play for a while and hope the new GM sucks so your old players will want to come back to you :P
I kid.
Scarwall was a lot of fun to GM. Sloppy characters can wake up with a case of zombie-itus, for example ... The "oh sh*t" moments that crop up are definitely worth being very patient for.
But players who don't understand how the game works (I'm a fighter! ...why is everyone trying to fight me!?) are generally annoying.
LOL! And that pretty much wins the thread, right there.
(The OP really needs to have a talk with his wife. What the heck is she thinking?)
I think in general, playing anything can get to be a drag regardless of how "interesting" a chapter is. All previous AP's got very sluggish towards the last 2 chapters. It might be the battle fatigue of having a character past the "sweet spot," or feeling like if it says to do something in a chapter, then the party must be forced to encounter it, but every group can get struck by ennui, and I'm sorry it turned out as it did. Outside problems can also be a challenge, as it was for you. Life creeps in and can kill the mood to game quickly.
I solved some chronic problems in my game with the following changes:
1) I roll dice to see who attacks what randomly unless it makes obvious sense: (Dumb Orc will try to bash that PC right in front of it in stead of another PC out of reach. I'll roll a die, though if two or more PC's are next to the Orc.)
2) We've done away with experience points. When the AP chapter says that a party should be at a certain level by a certain point, then there's just an automatic level up.
3) I try to talk or read body language to figure out if an upcoming scene or current one will be fun and why. Players who hate the spotlight but need to roleplay can just make a diplomacy check without talking...they just need to give me the general outcome the PC wants to happen. If something is turning into a slog, I try to find a way to make shortcuts pronto. Scarwall was a slog. If a party doesn't mind too much, maybe it means just cutting out some encounters. Perhaps 30 to 90% of the castle is empty as a result. The idea above to just "give" the party the sword after they join the Shoanti is an excellent emergency solution to a party wanting to wrap it up.
4) If someone doesn't understand the usual party roles (tank, medic, sneak, spell-slinger, etc.), maybe a refresher? Maybe make it very clear before making a character or accepting the item that paints the "kill-me" sign on their torso, that they get a straight-to-the-point warning? (If you make a fighter, I will have "most" enemies go after you always. If you accept this sword, then "all" enemies will forsake all else to attack only your character.)
*edit*
5) Before a character is made. Ask what role and how the player sees the character, so the DM can suggest steering clear of a bad fit towards a better fit.
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Orcsmasher:
Maybe your group finds a full six issue Pathfinder campaign arc a bit fatiguing...
Have you thought about running a shorter arc, such as the one which starts with 'Crypt of the Everflame'?
Here is why we played it:
1. The story seemed (and was) very good.
2. One of our players subscribes here and really wanted to play it. We were like, if you're going to go to the effort to pay for this we're happy to accomodate you.
3. Pathfinder was new to us at the time, well most of us, Scott, the guy who subscribes, was onbiously familar with it.
4. We had no idea of the grind. Keep in mind the grind was more real world stuff than the adventures themselves. The only problems I had with the adventures themselves were layout issues. Maps 5 pages away from the locations describing them, info on NPCs in totally different locations, stuff like that. "I know I read this somewhere, now where was it?" If I ran this 10 years ago, before I was married and had a kid, this woulda been a breeze. Stupid adult responsibilities.
Also Scott had just gotten home from a year tour in Iraq and we wanted to play a good game with our friend. What made it immesurably better was the fact that it wasn't the blasphemy to role playing known as D&D MMO, er, I mean D&D 4e.
Yeah, that can definitely make for a very long campaign! I've got one in my group who likes to accidentally misinterpret the rules in her favor. Like combining natural attacks with flurry of blows to get 5 attacks per round at L10 or so. Sigh.
Might really be an accident. That WAS the rule in 3 and 3.5, illustrated in WotC's FAQ with the Centaur Monk as an example. In 3.5 the centaur monk was one of the most munchkin monster race/class combo I could find. Pathfinder nerfed both centaur and flurry, so it's not so bad now.
As a player, if I think the GM may be forgetting something or judging a rule wrong, I will speak up once -- and only once. It's just a reminder, and the GM decides one way or the other. But there are so many players who prefer to hash it out to the Nth degree -- during the game session! :(
As a player, I generally only correct the GM if asked. I usually know the rules, but as a GM, there's one player that generally knows the rules a little better than I do, so if I want to know on the spot without looking it up, I ask him. Sometimes he rules-lawyers on me, but he's usually generally right but wrong in the case I'm using. Like when a monster has a special ability that gives him a second attack after a full move. He'll question it, but I'll assure him, I'm doing it right.
EDIT: Misstated my first point.
Orcsmasher:
It's just that if real-life issues keep sneak attacking, I'm concerned you'll find Kingmaker as much of a grind by the end as Curse of the Crimson Throne was, given that it has approximately the same page count. :-?
What will reduce the "grind" is the open decision-path in Kingmaker. Players decide to go poking around in the Decaying Forest, rumored for centuries to be the lair of a dragon ... well, what dragon a GM has placed there (or what ever else has taken its place) is what is there.
As early as 3rd level characters can glean basic "good / bad / meh" clues from the GM via augury.
My interpretation of Kingmaker is that it is very open and driven more by the players than the background. If they decide to grow crops and cart them into civilization for a few years, by all means let them.
The ability to decide what to and it what order should greatly alleviate any feeling of 'grind'. Kingmaker inspires me as well, which normally does not happen often with the APs, in terms of NPC personalities.
So Turin what casualty rate are you planning for in Kingmaker?
I'm always a bit shocked that people just plow right trough these.
I came from a background where we started with multiple DMs in Jr-high / high school. We'd run an adventure then hand the reigns over to the next DM that wanted to run something. When the other DMs eventually stopped gaming and it was just me, I still kept that sort of feel going by juggling multiple campaigns (a Ravenloft adventure, followed by a Al-Qadim adventure, followed by a Nordic adventure, repeat). I'm still doing that now: running the end of SCAP with another GM running Second Darkness. I know the high-level finale of SCAP is a bit of a slog, and we're hanging in there. I can't imagine doing it without some breaks provided by the other game. To my ADD style of gaming, running the same characters for so long without running out of steam is nearly unimaginable hurdle.
All of which I'm saying not to imply that people are doing it wrong, but to suggest an alternate approach. Orcsmasher, perhaps you'd be aided next time if you switched it up; run an adventure in your campaign and then trade off to that other GM for a bit, then repeat?
I'm always a bit shocked that people just plow right trough these.
I came from a background where we started with multiple DMs in Jr-high / high school. We'd run an adventure then hand the reigns over to the next DM that wanted to run something. When the other DMs eventually stopped gaming and it was just me, I still kept that sort of feel going by juggling multiple campaigns (a Ravenloft adventure, followed by a Al-Qadim adventure, followed by a Nordic adventure, repeat). I'm still doing that now: running the end of SCAP with another GM running Second Darkness. I know the high-level finale of SCAP is a bit of a slog, and we're hanging in there. I can't imagine doing it without some breaks provided by the other game. To my ADD style of gaming, running the same characters for so long without running out of steam is nearly unimaginable hurdle.
All of which I'm saying not to imply that people are doing it wrong, but to suggest an alternate approach. Orcsmasher, perhaps you'd be aided next time if you switched it up; run an adventure in your campaign and then trade off to that other GM for a bit, then repeat?
In higschool and over summers we would do this a lot. Often times switching games durring the same day. For some groups this works really well, for others not so much. I guess it's more an issue of people, not groups. Myself, I like reading four or five books at the same time, and I enjoy playing several games back to back, especially if those games are wildly different (one night play ravenloft, another play starwars, another play shadowrun). In one of the bigger groups I was in (a nine player Arcana Evolved campaign) we talked about doing this for the reasons already mentioned, and ALOT of the people were horrified. The thought of having to keep track of not only two entierly seperate characters, but to follow along two entierly seperate plots was...monumental. *shrugs* Same people could tell you all that nonsensical football score crap from memory, knowing what team has what quarterback, who used to play for which college in which year.
So Turin what casualty rate are you planning for in Kingmaker?
As high as I can make it without being a total 'bag. Especially since my group is going into Kingmaker post-CoT. :)
Orcsmasher:
It's just that if real-life issues keep sneak attacking, I'm concerned you'll find Kingmaker as much of a grind by the end as Curse of the Crimson Throne was, given that it has approximately the same page count. :-?
What will reduce the "grind" is the open decision-path in Kingmaker. Players decide to go poking around in the Decaying Forest, rumored for centuries to be the lair of a dragon ... well, what dragon a GM has placed there (or what ever else has taken its place) is what is there.
As early as 3rd level characters can glean basic "good / bad / meh" clues from the GM via augury.
My interpretation of Kingmaker is that it is very open and driven more by the players than the background. If they decide to grow crops and cart them into civilization for a few years, by all means let them.
The ability to decide what to and it what order should greatly alleviate any feeling of 'grind'. Kingmaker inspires me as well, which normally does not happen often with the APs, in terms of NPC personalities.
Sir Turin:
To use a metaphor, if walks which are a dozen miles at the most are your preferred form of leisure exercise, a fifty mile walk is going to seem a grind at some point irrespective of scenery or going underfoot.
I'm expressing concern regarding endurance capacity/stamina, not the flexibility of route.
A good point, Sir Charles, one I sadly missed. :(
We finished Scarwall and then took a break for someone else to GM Legacy of Fire. Its take a minute to pick back up on the old Campaign, we should be starting Crown of fangs in about a month, but it helps to keep it fresh for me GM'ing Crimson throne as well.
We are low level in the the other campaign so things move a little faster in that Campaign and then back to Crown for the big finally. It gives me more time to think through the module and come up with a few custom things to get the party members more into the setting, city, and adventure!
We are alsways running 2 campaigns at the same time to keep things fresh, we play pretty much every week!
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Definitely sucks, dude. But our group just decided to can that one and move to PF for good. I really wanted to see what happened...so I went through some forums around here for the story. My DM told me the other day that another reason he didn't want to finish besides going the PF route was because he didn't think it was at all possible for us to survive, let alone win, the final encounter. He mentioned some details, and I know the Paizo guys like throwing challenging things out, but it seems kinda strange that they would make something unbeatable. What are your thoughts on it? And anyone else's, for that matter.
Also, I ran Crypt. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I will say, though, that pretty much the whole thing is a crawl, but it's a crawl with a reason, not a go level up here thing. My 2 cp.
Definitely sucks, dude. But our group just decided to can that one and move to PF for good. I really wanted to see what happened...so I went through some forums around here for the story. My DM told me the other day that another reason he didn't want to finish besides going the PF route was because he didn't think it was at all possible for us to survive, let alone win, the final encounter. He mentioned some details, and I know the Paizo guys like throwing challenging things out, but it seems kinda strange that they would make something unbeatable. What are your thoughts on it? And anyone else's, for that matter.
Also, I ran Crypt. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I will say, though, that pretty much the whole thing is a crawl, but it's a crawl with a reason, not a go level up here thing. My 2 cp.
<Looks at various campaign journals.> Seems like it was beat allright, by various groups.
<Looks at various campaign journals.> Seems like it was beat allright, by various groups.Definitely sucks, dude. But our group just decided to can that one and move to PF for good. I really wanted to see what happened...so I went through some forums around here for the story. My DM told me the other day that another reason he didn't want to finish besides going the PF route was because he didn't think it was at all possible for us to survive, let alone win, the final encounter. He mentioned some details, and I know the Paizo guys like throwing challenging things out, but it seems kinda strange that they would make something unbeatable. What are your thoughts on it? And anyone else's, for that matter.
Also, I ran Crypt. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I will say, though, that pretty much the whole thing is a crawl, but it's a crawl with a reason, not a go level up here thing. My 2 cp.
Oh yes, CotCT is beatable - and I "cheated" with a re-statted BBEG for the end-boss. Same CR, much tougher foe, still got stomped into toe jam, just took them longer to do.
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<Looks at various campaign journals.> Seems like it was beat allright, by various groups.Definitely sucks, dude. But our group just decided to can that one and move to PF for good. I really wanted to see what happened...so I went through some forums around here for the story. My DM told me the other day that another reason he didn't want to finish besides going the PF route was because he didn't think it was at all possible for us to survive, let alone win, the final encounter. He mentioned some details, and I know the Paizo guys like throwing challenging things out, but it seems kinda strange that they would make something unbeatable. What are your thoughts on it? And anyone else's, for that matter.
Also, I ran Crypt. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I will say, though, that pretty much the whole thing is a crawl, but it's a crawl with a reason, not a go level up here thing. My 2 cp.
The ones I saw looked that way also, but I just figured I'd ask around. I thought it was more of an "I don't want to run this anymore" thing, and that was just post-justification, whether valid or not. Oh well.
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Oh yes, CotCT is beatable - and I "cheated" with a re-statted BBEG for the end-boss. Same CR, much tougher foe, still got stomped into toe jam, just took them longer to do.<Looks at various campaign journals.> Seems like it was beat allright, by various groups.Definitely sucks, dude. But our group just decided to can that one and move to PF for good. I really wanted to see what happened...so I went through some forums around here for the story. My DM told me the other day that another reason he didn't want to finish besides going the PF route was because he didn't think it was at all possible for us to survive, let alone win, the final encounter. He mentioned some details, and I know the Paizo guys like throwing challenging things out, but it seems kinda strange that they would make something unbeatable. What are your thoughts on it? And anyone else's, for that matter.
Also, I ran Crypt. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I will say, though, that pretty much the whole thing is a crawl, but it's a crawl with a reason, not a go level up here thing. My 2 cp.
Yeah, like I said ^ there, figured it was. I don't think Paizo would keep customers around too long if no one could complete an adventure, no matter how well they were written.
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Orcsmasher, you have my sympathy.
My group is getting ready to start Crown of Fangs soon. They groaned their way through Scarwall, but ended up doing things a little backwards as they got the sword after taking out one anchor and then proceeded to trounce their way through the rest with out so much as a sweat. Then again I am running it with Pathfinder rules vs. 3.5, and they have a paladin.
Add to it they didn't convince the Shoanti to stop their invasion, oh no they want to be at the forefront of this army. So I am retooling the last part a little to give a better back drop, and the fact I am busting out Bahor as well as he lived at the end of the Escape... thank you Turin!
In the end this will be my last AP that I run for awhile as my wife and I convinced another player to run Kingmaker for us, just so we can run rip shod over the game. She is doing priestess of Erastil with the plant Domain and I a paladin of Erastil. Should be fun.
Orcsmasher, you have my sympathy.
My group is getting ready to start Crown of Fangs soon. They groaned their way through Scarwall, but ended up doing things a little backwards as they got the sword after taking out one anchor and then proceeded to trounce their way through the rest with out so much as a sweat. Then again I am running it with Pathfinder rules vs. 3.5, and they have a paladin.
Add to it they didn't convince the Shoanti to stop their invasion, oh no they want to be at the forefront of this army. So I am retooling the last part a little to give a better back drop, and the fact I am busting out Bahor as well as he lived at the end of the Escape... thank you Turin!
In the end this will be my last AP that I run for awhile as my wife and I convinced another player to run Kingmaker for us, just so we can run rip shod over the game. She is doing priestess of Erastil with the plant Domain and I a paladin of Erastil. Should be fun.
Old One Eye's an interesting Gawd that's for sure. Druid of Erastil by any chance for Missus Deathboy? Or are you both going Lawful Good and having a good time as a married couple in-game? ;)
Glad your Bahor is breaking out his not-inconsiderable resources in thwarting your players' assault on Korvosa whilst Ileosa goes and becomes all immortal and stuff. ^_^
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stuff I saidOld One Eye's an interesting Gawd that's for sure. Druid of Erastil by any chance for Missus Deathboy? Or are you both going Lawful Good and having a good time as a married couple in-game? ;)
Glad your Bahor is breaking out his not-inconsiderable resources in thwarting your players' assault on Korvosa whilst Ileosa goes and becomes all immortal and stuff. ^_^
Actually she is doing a priestess, and no we actually tend to play characters that get along well with each other, but never romantic, or characters that just dislike each other. Weird huh?
Oh yeah they have Bahor on the list of people whom need to die a horrible death, besides he thinks he should be King, and he has a network to help him get there.
stuff I saidOld One Eye's an interesting Gawd that's for sure. Druid of Erastil by any chance for Missus Deathboy? Or are you both going Lawful Good and having a good time as a married couple in-game? ;)
Glad your Bahor is breaking out his not-inconsiderable resources in thwarting your players' assault on Korvosa whilst Ileosa goes and becomes all immortal and stuff. ^_^
Actually she is doing a priestess, and no we actually tend to play characters that get along well with each other, but never romantic, or characters that just dislike each other. Weird huh?
Oh yeah they have Bahor on the list of people whom need to die a horrible death, besides he thinks he should be King, and he has a network to help him get there.
A powerful one at that, one that in the characters' absence will have garnered fantastic popular support among the masses and the surviving members of the Griffon riders and the city guards.
I suspect that in your game the Arkonas are likely to acsend to the throne in the aftermath ... :)
Here's what I wrote at the time about the ending:
Mary complained during CotCT4 when the adventurers left the city. Basically, she thought it was a huge diversion from the central appeal of the adventure path: the urban setting. At the time, I disagreed, because I like the Shoanti adventure and thought it was a neat intro into a yoinkable culture.
But now I agree with her.
I just read Skeletons of Scarwall and Crown of Fangs back to back. And they are the same type of adventure. In Scarwall, you penetrate a fortress held by forces that defend themselves intelligently and are on the move. You also have a structure that requires killing or neutralizing four things before you get to the BBEG, which leads to the shiny. In Crown of Fangs, you've got to penetrate a fortress held by forces that defend themselves intelligently and are on the move. Again, you've got a laundry list of tasks to accomplish, albeit without the enforced order of Scarwall. Then you go to the Mushfens and you have to penetrate a fortress held by forces that defend themselves intelligently and are on the move.
In short, it's "Take the ruined castle" then we "Take the castle" then we "Take the partially submerged pyramid."
The problem isn't with the set pieces; they're great. They're always great. The problem is with the missed opportunity and the fact that having three similar set pieces in a row may lead to player fatigue.
My big issue is that you missed an opportunity. You set up an adventure path concept that excited me: be revolutionaries that take down a tyrant. The first three adventures set this up wonderfully and it's exciting to think about PCs growing up in this context.
Then most of the revolution occurs off screen! Cressida runs the revolution while you're with the Shoanti and at Scarwall. Sabina frees the ones that resisted Maiden training.
The PCs don't recruit revolutionaries, don't try to stop the forced blood donations at the Church of Asmodeus, don't try to politic the Church of Abadar into a different stance, don't secure food and water resources for the poor and your own units, don't find sources of weapons for the revolution, don't weed out traitors, don't recruit moles in the Queen's retinue, don't figure out ways to avoid physical and magical detection, don't commit acts of terrorism against the unjust powers that be, and don't storm the castle with their rag tag band of fugitives.
Instead, they get a cool sword that bypasses the regeneration capabilities of the Queen. Forget the trinket. Vive la Revolution!
[snip]
I just wish that you had released Skeletons of Scarwall as a Gamemastery module and kept to the implied theme. Heck, running a revolution is full of Wisdom-based conflicts anyway. It would have fit the Harrow deck just as well.
Has anyone done what roguerouge is proposing?
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Has anyone done what roguerouge is proposing?
Not yet, but this is similar to my plans for the campaign to come. My players are currently in EFOK after which they will still head out to the shoanti. They'll get their shiny trinket from the shoanti and return with a force of shoanti warriors who will declare war on the queen. The queen in response will send many of her forces against the shoanti giving the PCs the opportunity to stage an internal revolution in the city. (Since all this stuff replaces skeletons, the players should still hit the right levels). When they hit castle k, there shouldn't be the dungeon fatigue that seems to plague most groups. I'll probably borrow liberally from council of thieves to make it work.
Hey, let me know what you are going to use from CoT. I have all the books on my shelf, but haven't really read through them.
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Has anyone done what roguerouge is proposing?
My group is approaching the endgame of the AP as well and I have been thinking about how to restructure Crown of Fangs so as to avoid the dungeon-fatigue/doing the same schtick twice.
I have a few things that my players have provided to help me. Firstly, one of the character's father was sent to Magnimar at the end of Seven Days to try to raise a force against Ileosa. Secondly, the party has gone out of their way to recruit Varisians and Shoanti to their side (even promising the Shoanti a return to the lowlands). Also, the Daughter of Urgathoa and a ressurected Rolth are still in play. That and Bahor. (yep lots of loose ends)
So what I've sketched out are a few things:
-Aware of the party's actions and the Shoanti threat Ileosa ordered the Gray Maidens to establish a garrison at Harse to protect Korvosa from an attack. In order to get the Shoanti army and clutch of Varisian sorcerors within striking distance to invade the city this outpost must be taken. However, aside from some Mantis assassins the Maidens also brought a secret weapon with them. Some very nasty creature. Something like a pit fiend but maybe not quite as high CR. The party doesn't know this but they will pick up some clues that something very nasty is waiting for their army. Investigate and defeat the pit fiend before it wipes out most of their force.
-Renedevous at the Boneyard; sneaking into the city to make contact with Cressida and the resistance. Arrive in time for a secret meeting with a priest of Asmodeus who opposes the Queen. Rather than forced blood donations I'm thinking that the 'cure' to Blood-veil was somehow tampered with so the Queen can use it as a sympathetic focus for the ritual. So basically everyone who received the inoculation is going to become an unwitting sacrifice. Additionally, the attack force in Magnimar was also inoculated with the Blood-veil vaccine. To complicate matters the priest brings another brother of his Church but this brother is actually under the control of the Daughter of Urgathoa. The Daughter (advanced to make her deadlier) teleports in with minions.
-Potential side-quest: Rolth (probably now a lich of some kind) was sent to Magnimar to ensure the army received the tampered Blood-veil vaccine. The party may go to Magnimar to root him out.
-Infiltrate the castle: The party will still infiltrate the castle but I'll cut it down quite a bit. Focus mainly on the party finding Togomor, discovering the false Ileosa and the location of the Sunken Pyramid (which I may just put as a dungeon complex underneath the Mastaba, not sure)
So the only other thing floating around is what to do with Bahor but the group is still in Scarwall so have a bit of time to figure that out. So that's my rough plan thus far. Thoughts, comments appreciated.
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Bahor = perfect "sub-boss". If the PC's left on a not so bad footing, he could be a valuable ally up until they off Queen Ileosa.
Then, he'll flip on them and attempt a coup.
Whether or not he's successful depends a lot on how fast the party kens to his betrayal.
Or....he becomes Blackjack and foments dissent against Ileosa, the PC's, and everyone else.
- In my campaign, Vimanda joined up with the PCs to take down Bahor. Afterwards, she double-crosses them and sides with the queen. They barely escape the Labyrinth on the rowboat before the Gray Maidens storm the complex. I think I will have Vimanda work as a spymaster/assassin for the queen; she will be replacing the efreet as Trifaccia in my campaign.
- Grau Soldado transformed into a vampire during 7 Days to the Grave and the party lost track of him. I might have the queen blackmail him into causing trouble at the boneyards. One of their end missions will be to deal with Grau -- I seem to recall a mission in CoT that dealt with eliminating an undead threat in the final book.
- Cressida was arrested at the end of 7 Days to the Grave and taken to the Longacre Lodge at the end of 7 Days to the Grave. The Queen managed to pin the blame for blood veil on Cressida and had Sabina blackmail the PCs into handing over the cure (which the cleric developed). She consequently received credit for curing blood veil and fomented a lot of good will in the process. Many new hospices were opened throughout the city. I will use your idea of having the inoculations be tampered with -- it definitely seems like something Ileosa would do.
One of their missions will be to rescue Cressida, who they really like. However, I am debating on whether they find her...different after months of torture and captivity.
- I am thinking about ditching the Sunken Queen altogether. I don't like the idea of the finale of the campaign occurring outside Korvosa. Someone mentioned that they used the dungeon in Mud Sorcerer's Tomb as the final dungeon crawl before facing the queen. I find this to be an intriguing idea.
- I really like how you are getting the Varisians and Shoanti involved in this. The PCs made friends with the Shoanti and will call upon them for aid when the time comes. I may borrow your idea of having the queen set up a little "surprise" for them in Harse. Maybe foreshadow Togomor before he teleports away?
- I want the PCs to actually get a chance to fight Sabina. In my campaign, she led a company of gray maidens and slaughtered the party's Sable Company Marine's entire graduating class at Endrin Academy. Furthermore, she blackmailed them into handing over the cure to blood veil. They really have a bone to pick with her.
In any case, I am retooling her as a blackguard (or anti-paladin) and she will be the dark opposite of the party's Serithiel-wielding female paladin.
That's all I can think of for now.
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Bahor = perfect "sub-boss". If the PC's left on a not so bad footing, he could be a valuable ally up until they off Queen Ileosa.
Then, he'll flip on them and attempt a coup.
Whether or not he's successful depends a lot on how fast the party kens to his betrayal.
That would fit Bahor's personality and goals. I've been toying with the idea that Glorio makes a public thing of leaving Korvosa vowing his return. He leaves the palace defended by magical wards and the like to deter any unwelcome guests. Secretly, Bahor and his rakshasa relatives take up residence in the Cerulean Society guildhall. This way they're no longer targets for Ileosa to pick off.
I think there will be more than enough elements in play until after Ileosa's defeat. I might have Bahor tip the party of about the surprise waiting for them in Harse but that would be the extent of his active involvement. If the group is interested in dealing with the aftermath I could have the Cerulean Society invovled in picking off nobles and targeting the PCs until Glorio is ready to return to Korvosa to pick up the pieces. Either that or the rakshasa puts the hooks into one of the houses so as to be a puppetmaster rather than rule openly. Lots of possibilities.
Nice ideas. I'd hack apart Crown and use those bad guys in your ideas. Perhaps the support the Grey Maidens have in Harsk are the Succubus. Meeting up with Cressida is complicated by the Red Mantis operatives who have finally tracked her and are moving in for the kill when the PCs arrive.
Nice ideas. I'd hack apart Crown and use those bad guys in your ideas. Perhaps the support the Grey Maidens have in Harsk are the Succubus. Meeting up with Cressida is complicated by the Red Mantis operatives who have finally tracked her and are moving in for the kill when the PCs arrive.
That's not a bad idea at all.
Would make it more interesting instead of three dungeon crawls in a row. I like the concept of CoF, but the execution is kind of poor. Giant castle, an actual location and not just another damp tomb, and the party is expected to dungeon crawl it. Boring.
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Yeah, I agree with the "Dungeon-Crawl-Blues" statements. If you pull the various encounters that are fun in CoF out of the castle, and scatter them around the "disestablishment" adventure you're talking about, it seems like it'd be more original and fresh.
Sabina can stay where she is...lose the whole " I don't want to fight on this dragon" bit and just play her nasty.
Red Mantis and the like can be infiltrators or looking to take out Cressidia & other NPC leaders (Vencarlo?)
Togomor and crew can be at the actual castle, but rather than playing hide and seek, he's at the head of an assault force, just ready to teleport in to cause some havoc.
And then, once that's all settled, head into the underground lair beneath the mostaba and take out Queeny and company.
-t
Yeah, I agree with the "Dungeon-Crawl-Blues" statements. If you pull the various encounters that are fun in CoF out of the castle, and scatter them around the "disestablishment" adventure you're talking about, it seems like it'd be more original and fresh.
Sabina can stay where she is...lose the whole " I don't want to fight on this dragon" bit and just play her nasty.
Red Mantis and the like can be infiltrators or looking to take out Cressidia & other NPC leaders (Vencarlo?)
Togomor and crew can be at the actual castle, but rather than playing hide and seek, he's at the head of an assault force, just ready to teleport in to cause some havoc.
And then, once that's all settled, head into the underground lair beneath the mostaba and take out Queeny and company.
-t
That'd cut out the Harrow Deck of Many Things. There is *some* need to storm the castle.
That'd cut out the Harrow Deck of Many Things. There is *some* need to storm the castle.Yeah, I agree with the "Dungeon-Crawl-Blues" statements. If you pull the various encounters that are fun in CoF out of the castle, and scatter them around the "disestablishment" adventure you're talking about, it seems like it'd be more original and fresh.
Sabina can stay where she is...lose the whole " I don't want to fight on this dragon" bit and just play her nasty.
Red Mantis and the like can be infiltrators or looking to take out Cressidia & other NPC leaders (Vencarlo?)
Togomor and crew can be at the actual castle, but rather than playing hide and seek, he's at the head of an assault force, just ready to teleport in to cause some havoc.
And then, once that's all settled, head into the underground lair beneath the mostaba and take out Queeny and company.
-t
The way I'm running it
The PCs are going to storm the castle while their assembled friends fight off the Grey Maidens. After they kill the remaining bad guys who won't be moving out of the castle (Togomor, Seramignatto and Illeosa), the PCs will probably end up staying in it. At night, the PCs will be visited by Eodred's brother's ghost, who will compel them to help get the creation of the deck started, and then when the PCs don't know where to go next, the Runelord of Lust's consort who had mysteriously disappeared will appear again to help them. I figure that he's probably pissed-- he was waiting for his lover's ressurection, and Illeosa probably fouled that up somehow.