Currently there are no rules for riding an eidolon. In the final APG, there will be an evolution that allows your eidolon to be ridden as a mount.
For OP, I'd likely also stipulate (once that evolution is legal for play) that you have to choose quadruped in order to ride your eidolon.
An eidolon is not an animal companion. It's a called creature. Ranger, druid, paladin, etc. all have animal companions--the summoner does not. So if you were a Summoner 1/Druid 1 you would have an eidolon and a druid animal companion.
As for mounted combat rules, if you were to ride your eidolon (again, once it becomes legal for play) you would be subject to the mounted combat rules in their entirety.
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For OP, I'd likely also stipulate (once that evolution is legal for play) that you have to choose quadruped in order to ride your eidolon.
You realize that a biped base eidolon can easily have 4 legs right? I don't see any reason why you couldn't ride a serpentine ediolon anyway, get some nice dune vibes out of it. Also in the Song of Fire and Ice series (to use a more fantasy example) one of the characters rides on the back of an exceptionally large guy for much of the third book.
Down with arbitrary restrictions!
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For OP, I'd likely also stipulate (once that evolution is legal for play) that you have to choose quadruped in order to ride your eidolon.
You realize that a biped base eidolon can easily have 4 legs right? I don't see any reason why you couldn't ride a serpentine ediolon anyway, get some nice dune vibes out of it. Also in the Song of Fire and Ice series (to use a more fantasy example) one of the characters rides on the back of an exceptionally large guy for much of the third book.
Down with arbitrary restrictions!
Then take the evolution. But it is a creature shaped by your summon; and it isn't going to understand how to bear a rider automatically, even if it is willing. Thus the evolution cost.
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Then take the evolution. But it is a creature shaped by your summon; and it isn't going to understand how to bear a rider automatically, even if it is willing. Thus the evolution cost.
You misunderstand friend. I was voicing an objection to an additional requirement that eidolon mounts must begin as a quadruped.
I have no objection to requiring the mount evolution and whatever prerequisites that entails. I simply don't think that rules for the sake of conforming to preconceived notions of what a mounted character should look like are a good idea. Hence my citing of examples in the fantasy/sf genre of oddball mounts.
I'd honestly expect most ediloion mounts to have more than two legs for greater battlefield movement powers.
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I have not done the math, but I suppose mount restrictions is made for balance reasons more than 'what is and what is not possible and/or cool'. In a home campaign coolness and character-flavor is key, and a summoner riding a worm or a paladin riding a velociraptor is possible if it fits the setting. In OP though it is all about balance and eliminating possible loopholes. (Though coolness is a key factor, if it does not create balance issues).
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I have not done the math
Math:
Base Form Diffrences:
Biped - Bad Save (Ref), Str 16, Dex 12
Quadruped - Bad Save (Will), Str 14, Dex 14
Serpentine - Bad Save (Fort), Str 12, Dex 16
This is per the latest APG playtest. The only other differences are which 5 evolution points come built in. Exactly which loophole are you restricting by limiting the riding evolution to quadruped forms?
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I have not done the mathMath:
Base Form Diffrences:
Biped - Bad Save (Ref), Str 16, Dex 12
Quadruped - Bad Save (Will), Str 14, Dex 14
Serpentine - Bad Save (Fort), Str 12, Dex 16This is per the latest APG playtest. The only other differences are which 5 evolution points come built in. Exactly which loophole are you restricting by limiting the riding evolution to quadruped forms?
It is a good point, the differences does not seem to be that much of an issue. It does however have some impact on the cavalier/paladin suitable mount debate. If their mounts are limited to quadruped animal companions, then how come the summoner are not? I know the paladin/cavalier mount debate is not settled yet, but it will be in the next OP update. I the case of the paladin/cavalier debate mount options are fewer than druid animal companions although you could probably ride all of them. I for one though want fewer restrictions on mounts, but there have to be some.
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Personally I don't think that ediolons should be ridden period, but thats neither here nor there. Also I think if you want to do mounted combat than you should just be a Caviler. Wolves, Boars, and Dogs make plenty cool mounts.
That said it does seem like a cool choice for mounted mage style of playing to ride on the ediolon occasionally, so I don't see any problem with the evolution (when it is finalized).
What annoys me is an additional limitation on it. I think fighter types who just want to dip into summoner are not only being cheese monkeys, they're being bad ones by gimping themselves with the loss of a BAB.
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An eidolon is not an animal companion. It's a called creature. Ranger, druid, paladin, etc. all have animal companions--the summoner does not.
Based on this interpretation will the application of the Boon Companion feat out of Seekers of Secrets be reconsidered in regards to using it with eilodons?
Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is
unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or
familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels
higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level.
If you have more than one animal companion or familiar,
choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an
animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the
replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The
effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a
different animal companion or familiar.
That feat will have no application to the summoner class as the eidolon is neither an animal companion or a familiar (on purpose for both).
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Currently there are no rules for riding an eidolon. In the final APG, there will be an evolution that allows your eidolon to be ridden as a mount.
Are there any real reasons you can't do it now? Riding a winged serpent is one of my character's whole concept. Mounted Archery from the sky.
Bipeds I can understand not being able to ride(all jokes aside).
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I think there's something we're not very clear about and that we should be much, much more clear about and that's this:
Your eidolon isn't an animal, it's not an animal companion, it's not a pet, it's not a familiar, it's not, in essence, a thing with a perfect predictable form that shows up the exact same way every single time. It's a malleable called creature that can't accurately mimic any other creature and is slightly different every time you call it. It's because of its malleable nature that you can frequently re-shape it by re-spending your evolution points. It can't be ridden, because it's not the exact same creature every time. Adding a ride evolution allows us to say, "Okay, you've chosen in the creation of your eidolon for it to show up similar enough each time that you're capable of learning to ride its current form."
I hope I'm making sense here. :-)
I should also point out that there's a vast difference between "my eidolon can carry me" and "I can ride my eidolon into combat and use the mounted combat rules while riding my eidolon." If you want your eidolon to carry you, great! If you want your eidolon to be ridden into combat and use the mounted combat rules, you'll need to buy the ride evolution.
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Currently there are no rules for riding an eidolon. In the final APG, there will be an evolution that allows your eidolon to be ridden as a mount.
For OP, I'd likely also stipulate (once that evolution is legal for play) that you have to choose quadruped in order to ride your eidolon.
An eidolon is not an animal companion. It's a called creature. Ranger, druid, paladin, etc. all have animal companions--the summoner does not. So if you were a Summoner 1/Druid 1 you would have an eidolon and a druid animal companion.
As for mounted combat rules, if you were to ride your eidolon (again, once it becomes legal for play) you would be subject to the mounted combat rules in their entirety.
I realize who I am talking to here, and I don't mean to be confrontational, but I am going to ask you to reconsider this posting.
A) There were no suggestions in the rules that an eidolon could not be used as a mount.
B) The summoner has ride as a class skill. Other casters without a companion that could be ridden do not have ride as a class skill. And casters that do have companions that can be ridden do have the class skill.
C) For the purposes of the Boon Companion feat, we were told the eidolon is to be treated the same as a companion. (Joshua said in Dec: I only said that boon companion could work for the eidolons in Pathfinder Society.) and in the same thread (Russ Taylor said: Pitching in my 2 cents, if the summoner had existed when I wrote the feat, it would have been included in the list.) So, with those two comments, I had taken that eidolons qualify for the Boon Companion feat for multiclass characters. If this is being officially negated, a couple of us need to rewrite characters before going in front of Doug Doug next Sunday.
D) The non-solid "can a creature be ridden" rules have seemed to be a minimum of four legs, and one size category larger than the rider, helpful attitude of the creature towards the rider, and training if their INT was 2. That, or they were fliers forms like dire bat, roc, wyvrns or dragons.
And then, the final issue is that your posting creates a "Joshua said" rule that now prohibits something that to me and others did not seem prohibited before, and that ruling is already scheduled to be reversed in August. It invalidates many character designs for five months before restoring them. I will be the first to to fall to one knee and ask "Sire, How much does the mounted training evolution cost? And may we have it now?"
I realize who I am talking to here, and I don't mean to be confrontational, but I am going to ask you to reconsider this posting.
Don't worry about that overmuch. If you're concerned, I want to hear it. :-)
A) There were no suggestions in the rules that an eidolon could not be used as a mount.
While this is true, I do want to point to Chapter 13 of the Guide where, under the APG Playtest section it says, "We reserve the right to change, alter, modify, or outright disallow various functions of these classes..." The fact that we didn't address how to ride (into combat using mounted combat feats) an eidolon given our written assumptions about the eidolon being a malleable called creature is an omission in our design of this class which will be rectified with the ride evolution in the final APG.
B) The summoner has ride as a class skill. Other casters without a companion that could be ridden do not have ride as a class skill. And casters that do have companions that can be ridden do have the class skill.
The summoner does not have a companion. It has a called creature that is vastly different from a companion or a familiar. Additionally, the eidolon is the primary class ability of the summoner (whereas the companions/familiars are not primary class abilities of the Core classes) and because it's significantly more powerful than a companion/familiar, it must be handled differently.
C) I had taken that eidolons qualify for the Boon Companion feat for multiclass characters. If this is being officially negated, a couple of us need to rewrite characters before going in front of Doug Doug next Sunday.
That answer in December was an error on my part and I will post to that thread to correct myself. The reason an eidolon cannot quality for that feat is that the eidolon is the primary class ability for the summoner. It's the equivalent of a feat for multi-class wizards that says "you still gain spells as if you were a wizard 4 levels or higher" or a feat for multi-class rogues that says "you gain sneak attack dice as if you were 4 levels higher." In essence, allowing this feat to apply to an eidolon is unbelievably broken and unbalancing and I shouldn't have posted that it was usable for the eidolon in the first place.
D) The non-solid "can a creature be ridden" rules have seemed to be a minimum of four legs, and one size category larger than the rider, helpful attitude of the creature towards the rider, and training if their INT was 2. That, or they were fliers forms like dire bat, roc, wyvrns or dragons.
And those rules are generally fine when applied to non-summoners. The eidolon is dramatically different from other creatures. Thus, we need a ride evolution.
And then, the final issue is that your posting creates a "Joshua said" rule that now prohibits something that to me and others did not seem prohibited before, and that ruling is already scheduled to be reversed in August. It invalidates many character designs for five months before restoring them. I will be the first to to fall to one knee and ask "Sire, How much does the mounted training evolution cost? And may we have it now?"
I appreciate your perspective here and here's what Jason and I have decided:
Ride (Ex): (2-point evolution) While an eidolon can normally carry its summoner should it have a high enough Strength to do so, eidolons, because of their malleable nature, are not normally able to be ridden into combat. This evolution allows an eidolon to be ridden without penalty by its summoner and allows the eidolon to use the normal mounted combat rules. The eidolon is only considered to be a suitable mount for its summoner and may not be ridden into combat by another creature. This evolution is only available to eidolons with four legs that are one size category larger than their summoner.
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Go ahead and rebuild your eidolon to include this rule if you've built your eidolon around being ridden. This evolution may changed in the final APG.
Hope that helps. :-)
Well phrased. :-)
You can't have them out for 24 hours in the early levels, so they're going to need to be summoned back eventually.
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like sharing magic item slots just get silly to me.
-James
On this, I agree. I think it was made so people wouldn't equip their Eidolons with the most powerful items they could buy, and then do the same for themselves.
But that means that the gold a Summoner has to spend is cut in half, one part for his Eidolon and one part for himself. This means the Summoner needs to be careful. If he gives to much stuff to his Eidolon, he becomes a prime target, and vice versa.
But you can always spend little extra gold and make something "slotless." I can't remember how much gold, but this has been suggested.
Of course, when the APG book goes on sale, there will probably be something in it saying an Eidolon can't use slotless gear...
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Of course, when the APG book goes on sale, there will probably be something in it saying an Eidolon can't use slotless gear...
My thoughts exactly! :)
The major issue with the Summoner, is that you have your character as well as the equivalent of another PC. The new rules are there to keep this from being true, while not just nerfing the whole Summoner class.
True, it's a little weird, and some rules don't make 'real world sense', but they need to be there to maintain balance. This is ESPECIALLY true in an OP setting :P
