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For those of you that have read the six new classes, I was wondering about the Oracle Mystery Lore and its revelation Sidestep Secret. Sidestep Secret: Add your Charisma Modifier (instead of your Dexterity Modifier) to your AC and Reflex saving throws.
Since you are adding your Charisma modifier as your Dexterity modifier, do you also use it for the Combat Modifier Defense? CMD says to use your Dex mod and you are using your Cha mod instead. What do you all think?
I would say yes since it is a replacement of thing... same for the Duelist's canny defense I think actually (if slightly different in mechanical approach).
Would you also lose Chr to AC in the same way as you would lose Dex to AC, i.e. would you not add in your Chr if you were caught Flat-Footed, Balancing, or Climbing?
--Vrockabilly
When this was in the playtest thread JB said no at one point, though I'm not sure where, or fully versed in the why of it.
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When this was in the playtest thread JB said no at one point, though I'm not sure where, or fully versed in the why of it.Would you also lose Chr to AC in the same way as you would lose Dex to AC, i.e. would you not add in your Chr if you were caught Flat-Footed, Balancing, or Climbing?
--Vrockabilly
Hmmm, that means that it isn't subject to Max Dex from Armor either. Wow, that's a good revelation!
--Vrock Candy
Now that was in the playtest threads, so I won't say it's going to stay that way, but that was the last I had seen, and yes it is a good one.
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Now that was in the playtest threads, so I won't say it's going to stay that way, but that was the last I had seen, and yes it is a good one.
Wow, you don't lose dex to being flat footed, and when you normally would lose your dex you don't. Not only that it belongs in the CMD. What would you recommend in the search engines to find this playtest thread. It is fairly important.
Now that was in the playtest threads, so I won't say it's going to stay that way, but that was the last I had seen, and yes it is a good one.Wow, you don't lose dex to being flat footed, and when you normally would lose your dex you don't. Not only that it belongs in the CMD. What would you recommend in the search engines to find this playtest thread. It is fairly important.
Um... Oracle Revelations I think... I'll be honest my search Fu here at piazo is fairly weak... usually I mention something and someone else follows up with a link a little bit later...
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The thread is HERE but there's no real answer by the powers that be about it. Still looking for the similar thread about the Duelist's Int bonus to AC where James Jacobs commented...
--Vrocket Science
I've talked to Jason about this, and we're leaning toward a general rule of "if an ability lets you swap your Dex modifier for another ability score modifier to AC, that also affects your CMD." If we decided to do this after reviewing some examples, it'll be FAQ'd online and updated in the next printing of the book (whenever that is).
Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.
Would you also lose Chr to AC in the same way as you would lose Dex to AC,
i.e. would you not add in your Chr if you were caught Flat-Footed, Balancing, or Climbing?
The ability lets you add CHA to AC/Reflex Saves ¨instead of your DEX mod¨, i.e. REPLACING usage of DEX mod with CHA.
That means it should only work when you could normally be using your DEX mod (i.e. not Flat-Footed, etc), because if Sidestep Secret applied when DEX didn`t apply, that wouldn`t really be ´instead of your Dexterity modifier´ any more.This ability DOES seem to bypass Armor Max DEX restriction, because you are now explicitly using your CHA modifier to AC (rather than using the value of the CHA mod AS your DEX modifier, which WOULD still be subject to limits of DEX mod).
What`s curious is comparing Sidestep Secret to the Nature Mystery´s VERY similar ability:
Nature’s Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger. You may add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class. Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class.
The difference being that Nature´s Whispers doesn`t apply to Reflex Saves, and has specific wording which says when you lose DEX mod to AC that you also lose the CHA to AC. Personally, I feel that my explanation still stands as to why Sidestep Secret should also be lost when Flat-Footed/etc, but you do have to ask: If it was deemed important enough to include this wording in Nature´s Whispers, why isn`t equivalent wording included in Sidestep Secret? I`m not really sure why ´innate understanding of the universe´ boosts your Reflex Saves but ´nature whispering warnings to you´ doesn`t, but that`s what the rules say.
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As to CMD (which unfortunately still doesn`t use Untyped AC bonuses¨per RAW), I think one COULD argue that the current RAW does support that Sidestep Secret/Nature´s Whispers would apply to CMD: Your ´Dexterity modifier to Armor Class´ is a Dodge Bonus (which applies to CMD), and simply allowing CHA instead (in the place) of DEX wouldn`t seem to change the typing... Though I don`t think that is an argument against clarifying the rules. This also reinforces that Side-Step Secret is lost when Flat-Footed, since ¨Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. ¨