Only if you wear the belt for more then 24 hours so it doesn't count as just a temporary bonus. If you lose the belt you can't use the feat though.
If you lose the belt you can't use the feat though.
That's a slipery slope though. Prerequisites there are for GETTING the feat, not using it. Not that I agree with that interpretation, but you see what I mean.
Just sayin' what I've seen said several times already. I checked the d20pfsrd FAQ but didn't see an official response even though I know there has been one. If I get time I might browse though the old posts.
edit: I'll just make my own argument for it.
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A temporary bonus does not allow you to qualify for feats, but after 24 hours it would.
If you lose the belt you can't use the feat though.That's a slipery slope though. Prerequisites there are for GETTING the feat, not using it. Not that I agree with that interpretation, but you see what I mean.
No slippery slope about it. That's actually been the ruling in 3.5 as well (see the FAQ), and I believe I saw James or Jason comment on it here as well with regards to INT.
It also fits in perfectly with the rules as exists. For example, if you are a wizard with a 16 str, you can't cast 7th level spells, even if you memorize the 7th level spells. However, as soon as you don a headband or get a spell buff that raises your int, you can cast those 7th level spells. If the buff goes away, or the magic item is taken off, you can't cast those spells. You still have those spell slots, you just can't cast them.
Same with feats, you have the feat, but if you can't meet the prerequisite for it, for any reason, you can't use that feat. Just like a class ability that has a prerequisite (such as light or no armor). You still have the ability, you just can't use it until the condition is resolved.
The only thing different here is you have to wear the item for more than 24 hours because temporary bonuses do not count for gaining the feat (something about you needing to learn it and can't learn it in the 8 minutes the buff lasts). However, bonuses from items are treated as permanent after 24 hours, and a feat requires a permanent stat of X level, so you qualify with the item. Lose the item, lose access to the feat until you remedy the situation.
Note that you can also lose a feat if you can't meet the requirements for it. For example, if you have a feat that requires 13 str, and you get poisoned or drained and lose Str to the point where your str is 12, you can't use that feat.
Prerequisites are more than just to gain a feat, they are also prerequisites to use a feat. This is one reason why any text that talks about changing a feat always has a requirement of 'you cannot change a feat if it is a prerequisite of another feat'. That's because to use feat 2, you have to have feat 1, which means you'd lose access to feat 2 if you lost feat 1.
Frankly, if I wanted to be a mean GM, I'd create a cursed item that changed 'Point Blank Shot' to 'Endurance'. That would kill any archer build until they could get rid of the item, or level up and get the feat again, since they'd lose that entire feat tree.
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I added in a quote from feat prerequisites that clears it up pretty plainly.
The next paragraph is actually what Scipion del Ferro probably meant to post.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
If, for any reason, you no longer qualify for a feat, you can't use it. When you regain the qualifications, you "regain full use of the feat".
thank the Gods. :)
Note that you can also lose a feat if you can't meet the requirements for it. For example, if you have a feat that requires 13 str, and you get poisoned or drained and lose Str to the point where your str is 12, you can't use that feat.
This is true, but please remember that now in Pathfinder only Ability Drain actually reduces ability scores (and so, can 'freeze' feats or spells until such scores are restored), while Ability Damage only impose serious penalties to such scores.
PRD -> Glossary:
"Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
(...)
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."
thank the Gods. :)
Thank the dynamic spreadsheet-based automated character sheets, too.
I have issues with a game where some actions lead to long computations in the middle of a fight.
"You are poisoned and, since you failed your save, you lose two points of Strength."
"Damn. I have 12 now. Let me recalculate my attack and damage bonuses. I should recalculate my encumberance, too."
"Don't forget the feat you no longer qualify for."
"No Power Attack anymore, which means no Bull Rush, Cleave (and thus Great Cleave), and Sunder. There go my tactical options. I feel like a level 1 again."
"Didn't you have a Cleave as prerequisite for your Prestige Class, too?"
(more rules-checking ensue)
As not everyone comes to the game with their laptop computer, I'd house-rule the following: for temporary losses like this, do not apply the recursive losses due to not qualifying for feats anymore. Do this at the end of the day if the character isn't healed, or if the loss is permanent for some reason (and in-between sessions, too). [EDIT: The Wraith ninja'ed me on this with the actual rule - thanks :-)]
Of course, you could argue that the player took a big risk in basing every feat he took on a stat that was barely above the prerequisite.
Additionally, I have a question about the fact that many (if not all) feats include in their prerequisites the prerequisites of the feats on which they depend (feat A has X as prereq, and feat B has A as prereq: feat B will also list X as its prereq). For instance, Great Cleave is based on BAB+4 and on Cleave, which is based on Power Attack, which requires Str 13; and Great Cleave lists BAB+4, Cleave, PA, and Str 13 as prereq. Why?
Additionally, I have a question about the fact that many (if not all) feats include in their prerequisites the prerequisites of the feats on which they depend (feat A has X as prereq, and feat B has A as prereq: feat B will also list X as its prereq). For instance, Great Cleave is based on BAB+4 and on Cleave, which is based on Power Attack, which requires Str 13; and Great Cleave lists BAB+4, Cleave, PA, and Str 13 as prereq. Why?
Off hand, I think it's a way of making it easier to keep track of what you lose if your stat drops. That way you don't have to trace forwards or backwards. Plus, it avoids the issue that goes like this :
Player : I take Great Cleave this level.
GM : You can't, Great Cleave is based on Cleave which is based on Power Attack, and you permanently lost 2 Str when the lich ripped the muscles out of your body, not even the heal could bring them all back, remember?
Player : Doesn't matter, I still have Power Attack, even if I can't use it any more. The prerequisites for Great Cleave are just Cleave, which I have.
That's why they list all the prerequisites of all the prerequisite feats too, to avoid that conversation above.
As to the additional question, I've thought about it to and the solution that I've come up with is because the writers (WotC or Paizo) didn't want someone to stumble across an odd bonus feat here or there and then otherwise qualify for a chain that they shouldn't have.
In your Great Cleave example, suppose I gain a level in a prestige class that, for some reason, gives me Cleave as a bonus feat, but I hadn't prepared my character for it and have a 10 strength. If Great Cleave didn't specify that I needed STR 13, I could just qualify.
An even more realistic example is putting feats into Ioun Stones. I believe that the going rate is 10k for a feat, plus 5k for each prerequisite the feat has. I'm not 100% clear on that, but I believe it comes from Complete Warrior.
Also, not all feat chains do this. For example, Improved Grapple requires Dex 13 and Improved Unarmed Strike as prereqs, but Greater Grapple just requires Improved Grapple and BAB+6. This, I think, is intentionally done so that the Monk (who gets the Improved Grapple as a bonus feat) can qualify for Greater Grapple without having to invest in Dex.
Not that I don't understand the last posts or the rules. My question was more to get the reasoning behind this decision. The whole game wouldn't be much different if we didn't have all those stacking prerequisites.
As a real-world parallel, let's imagine you got a Ph.D. in Biology. In order to get that, you spent 20 years in school/university, learning various subjects, not all of them related to biology. In the last exam of your PhD, nobody would ask you questions about the History lesson you had on February 19th of your 6th grade.
Another example: in order to get Medusa's Wrath, you ought to have Improved Unarmed Strike, Scorpion's Style, and Gorgon's Fist. But none of these is actually useful for MW.
the writers didn't want someone to stumble across an odd bonus feat here or there and then otherwise qualify for a chain that they shouldn't have
Again, I'm curious about this. Why shouldn't they have it? If an ability gives a feat, you have the feat. If you get Cleave without Power Attack, that's because your PrC/whatever gave you techniques that allow to bypass the need for PA. If you don't need PA to Cleave, I don't see why you wouldn't have access to Great Cleave later. I still don't see the reasoning behind this. Same goes for TWF-like abilities or the Greater/Improved manoeuvers.
I have no idea why they wanted it that way. Like I said, it confused me too and that was the best explanation that I could come up with.
Also, sidenote, Gorgon's Fist helps Medusa's Wrath because the target of a successful Gorgon's Fist is "hindered" for the purposes of Medusa's Wrath. Gorgon's Fist, in turn, benefits from the slowed speed from Scorpion Strike which, in turn, can be used only with (improved) unarmed strikes.
I have no idea why they wanted it that way. Like I said, it confused me too and that was the best explanation that I could come up with.
Also, sidenote, Gorgon's Fist helps Medusa's Wrath because the target of a successful Gorgon's Fist is "hindered" for the purposes of Medusa's Wrath. Gorgon's Fist, in turn, benefits from the slowed speed from Scorpion Strike which, in turn, can be used only with (improved) unarmed strikes.
Agreed. But Scorpion and Gorgon are manoeuvers designed (perhaps) to help for making a Medusa's Wrath... they are not to be used during the MW itself, and the condition (stunned, etc.) can be achieved by other means (Stunning Fist, for instance, or a Demoralize check with Shatter Defences). That's why I can totally see the usefulness of monks not having to select the prerequisites for their bonus feats (Rangers, too). However, still with the monks, they can't take the Greater version of the Improved manoeuvers without selecting a useless feat first. And they can't take any feat from the TWF tree despite having a class ability emulating TWF.
I'd house-rule the redundant prerequisites away, and I'd consider any feat-like ability as the feat itself (in the area where the ability applies: a monk could select TW Rend, but he'd use it only during his flurry). Note that I'm not advocating for raising the monks' power level compared with other classes. If there's an increase of power level, that'd be for everyone.
$0.02