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Since word seems to be getting out about this release, I thought I'd put up a central thread for questions and comments.
Here's the official scoop: Tricky Owlbear Publishing, Inc. is producing a monster book called Forgotten Foes which features between 110 and 120 monsters for your Pathfinder game. At first, the project started with just the classic monsters Paizo couldn't fit into its Bestiary but it has since filled out a bit with other interesting creatures the writers felt needed the PF treatment. This means you'll not only get old-school monsters like the aerial servant, flail snail, and slaad (which we renamed "chaosiic") but also newer favorites like the multiple types of inevitables, formians, and sin dragons! Each monster will be illustrated and come with its own Lore table.
Forgotten Foes is being written by Mark Gedak (OGL Wiki) and Stefen Styrsky (Kobold Quarterly/Open Design) with some additional tweaking by yours truly. Artwork is being handled by Axel Carlsson and his company, Headless Hydra Games. Axel is already out pimping his end of things HERE.
This book promises to be the next big thing for your PF monster needs and we plan on its release this summer in both pdf and print forms (the latter through Lulu and OBS' new POD program which starts next month).
Bret Boyd
President
Tricky Owlbear Publishing, Inc.
I am definitely interested in this book.
I'm somewhat curious about your monster selection. It will be in the unique position of coming out between Bestiary I and II. While I don't mind if there is some overlap, what went into your monster selection process? Are you making sure that a good portion of the book is unlikely to become "invalid" in some customers minds when official versions come out in Paizo's BII?
Can you give us a hint as to what primary sources you'll be using? Will there be any original monsters? I'm guessing Tome of Horrors and the remainder of the SRD monsters are likely.
I am definitely interested in this book.
I'm somewhat curious about your monster selection. It will be in the unique position of coming out between Bestiary I and II. While I don't mind if there is some overlap, what went into your monster selection process? Are you making sure that a good portion of the book is unlikely to become "invalid" in some customers minds when official versions come out in Paizo's BII?
Can you give us a hint as to what primary sources you'll be using? Will there be any original monsters? I'm guessing Tome of Horrors and the remainder of the SRD monsters are likely.
I think this is a great point as obviously a little overlap isn't too big of a deal, but I would think most people upon seeing 50 monsters in a 3PP book and those same 50 monsters in the Paizo Bestiary II are going to go for the "official" content.
I would guess you guys have that worked out, just like to hear that from you :)
The subject of monster overlap is, honestly, something we've discussed amongst ourselves. But let's look at it this way--have you seen an official announcement of a monster list or a publication date for Bestiary II? Me neither (but maybe I've just missed it somewhere along the line). We're not content to wait to see the PF treatment given to some of our favorite "forgotten" creatures.
We also believe that, since Paizo was once a 3PP itself, that the Pathfinder fans have a more enlightened attitude towards the whole "official" vs. "3rd party" debate. If a product for your game is good, it is deserving of praise and acceptance. Forgotten Foes will be such a product and we're hopeful that gamers will see that. Take Necro's Tome of Horrors for example. A great book which later saw some overlap from WotC monster books. Did that diminish the appeal which gamers still hold for it? Not that I've seen!
Okay, back to the overlap question. Since there's obviously going to be some creature redundancy, at least in concept, no two writers will likely approach a conversion the same way. We've got some tweaks to our creatures (a little more flavor, for one) that we believe will make them sufficiently different to justify what some people will note as repetition. There's enough room on the playground for two monster books with a few similar players, is what I'm trying to say.
As the release date draws nearer, we'll throw some previews up so you folks can judge for yourselves if FF will be worth your gaming dollars. We're confident that it will be. :)
Edit: Apologies if this post rambled on a bit, I'm heading out the door to my day job.
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Guys, I have to same I'm really hesitant about this one, at least if you're hellbent on publishing before Bestiary II's contents are announced. Now as an addition to the second bestiary it'll be a no-brainer addition to my library, but if half the darn book is just going to be obsoleted in a few months, then why should I and the rest of the PF gamer market even bother? I mean, if the PDF price is like $10, then ok, maybe I can understand publishing now, but if I'm supposed to be paying $30 or $40 for a book that'll be half obsolete by August then honestly just forget the whole idea. I won't be buying.
Will there be a dead tree version of this?
edit - Never mind. Lulu POD. Thanks for informing us on this.
Congrats to Mark Gedak and Stefen Styrsky
Also contrats to Headless Hyrda and Tricky Owlbear on the the colaboration I know how hard it is to get 120 pieces of art together. I assume the art will be all black and white?
I love Slaad
I will buy the FIRE out of this product, the second you guys will let me. :) Tricky Owlbear has become a name I trust in this industry, and this is one of the products that is just aimed directly at my soft spot... great work.
Thank you very much! I can't tell you how good this is to see. It's tough sometimes for 3PPs to get noticed (see below).
I like to think that is true also...but you know me, I'm a TrickyOwlbear junky, so I'm in whichever way.
Your continued support is greatly appreciated, DF!
Guys, I have to same I'm really hesitant about this one, at least if you're hellbent on publishing before Bestiary II's contents are announced. Now as an addition to the second bestiary it'll be a no-brainer addition to my library, but if half the darn book is just going to be obsoleted in a few months, then why should I and the rest of the PF gamer market even bother? I mean, if the PDF price is like $10, then ok, maybe I can understand publishing now, but if I'm supposed to be paying $30 or $40 for a book that'll be half obsolete by August then honestly just forget the whole idea. I won't be buying.
Hmm, we're not "hellbent" but I don't see a reason to delay our schedule (strike while the iron's hot and all that). Our book should be rather wallet-friendly (at least in pdf form; base POD costs are pretty much out of our hands). As for some monsters being "obsolete" because Paizo produces them later, I just don't buy it.
How about this analogy? I go to the drug store and want to buy some Advil. Now, there's two different selections--brand name Advil and a generic brand next to it that says, "contains the same active ingredient as Advil". So, what's the deal here? I look at Advil and the active ingr. is "ibuprofen 200mg" Looking at the generic, I see it has the exact same thing. What's the difference in terms of effectiveness? Nothing, that's what. You then base your choice on personal preference. Brand Advil costs about twice as much as the generic but is in a much prettier box and is something you've heard of and probably taken before. And, you probably will buy the brand because you don't know anything about the generic and want to stay in your comfort zone.
Too bad, since you could have saved money and gotten the exact same product. You see where I'm going? Okay, it's not exactly the same thing but I believe the scenario is similar. A 3PP's monsters are no more going to be obsolete than that generic bottle of Advil (and in our case, you will undoubtedly find some new and exciting monsters to boot!). The only question you really have to ask yourself (for either scenario) is, "Do you trust the third party enough to buy their product and see if it has the same effectiveness?" Try us out, you might be surprised!
Will there be a dead tree version of this?
edit - Never mind. Lulu POD. Thanks for informing us on this.
You got it. :)
Congrats to Mark Gedak and Stefen Styrsky
Also congrats to Headless Hyrda and Tricky Owlbear on the the collaboration I know how hard it is to get 120 pieces of art together. I assume the art will be all black and white?
Axel is handling all of the art duties and is doing one heck of a job. Thanks for chiming in, Steve!
I love Slaad
Me too, especially with croutons. Oh, wait, you said slaad. :)
Me too, especially with croutons. Oh, wait, you said slaad. :)
croutons? who ruins perfectly good slaad with croutons? I just like raspberry vinagarette
oh wait, you thought I said salad
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Too bad, since you could have saved money and gotten the exact same product. You see where I'm going? Okay, it's not exactly the same thing but I believe the scenario is similar. A 3PP's monsters are no more going to be obsolete than that generic bottle of Advil (and in our case, you will undoubtedly find some new and exciting monsters to boot!).
There's one big difference between "generic" and "brand-name" monsters here - future use in products. I'd be shocked to see many Pathfinder-ized monsters getting used in other products, getting any future support at all if they're not the Paizo version. That possible future usage is definitely a thing that weighs in when I think about purchasing a monster book. Monster books are the one category of gaming books as a whole that I'm (and I'm assuming other Pf gamers are) still using in my games, 5, 6, 7 years after their print date.
Look at Book of Fiends - still seeing use 7 years after its publishing date. Probably going to see a Pathfinder revision soon (assuming the Freeport update sells decently). No duplication of what's in the core books, but well done expansions of the existing game. Duplicating what's in Bestiary 2 will be wasted space, especially in the long-term scheme that monster books live their lives. Fresh, new, original monsters (and/or some ones unlikely to ever be converted by Paizo) keep their value as long as this edition of the game lasts.
Yes, all the artwork in this monster book will be black and white, and greyscale. I'm a big fan of black and white artwork, but yes, you are right, it is also way cheaper than colour art.
As for duplicating monsters; how can we duplicate monsters from a book that hasn't yet been published? Yes, we are updating monsters from other sources, but the text and stats will very much be our own, as will the artwork! :)
- Axel (Headless Hydra Games)
There's one big difference between "generic" and "brand-name" monsters here - future use in products. I'd be shocked to see many Pathfinder-ized monsters getting used in other products, getting any future support at all if they're not the Paizo version. That possible future usage is definitely a thing that weighs in when I think about purchasing a monster book. Monster books are the one category of gaming books as a whole that I'm (and I'm assuming other Pf gamers are) still using in my games, 5, 6, 7 years after their print date.
Look at Book of Fiends - still seeing use 7 years after its publishing date. Probably going to see a Pathfinder revision soon (assuming the Freeport update sells decently). No duplication of what's in the core books, but well done expansions of the existing game. Duplicating what's in Bestiary 2 will be wasted space, especially in the long-term scheme that monster books live their lives. Fresh, new, original monsters (and/or some ones unlikely to ever be converted by Paizo) keep their value as long as this edition of the game lasts.
Ah, that reminds me that someone asked about what sources we'll be using. Tome of Horrors, Book of Dragons, and, yes, the Book of Fiends are three of them.
I do think 3PPPs (3rd party Pathfinder publishers) do well by consumers and just because these monsters are from Tricky Owlbear instead of Paizo will not mean too much in the long run. We're all using the same rules here but, that said, I'm certain that any duplicated monsters will not be 100% the same. Consumers will simply have to vote with their dollar. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens!
I'll take one. Can't ever have enough monster books.
It's not like everything in Bestiary II will be in Forgotten Foes, and vice versa (no Dhampir in FF I assume). My only concern is 'slaad with the serial numbers filed off' not quite being kosher.
Ah, well our chaosiic are more "we want something to fill the role of weird beasts from "Limbo" role" as opposed to "Limbo-origin powerful frog creatures". I assure you the difference in abilities (and appearance) is quite extreme. It's more our nod to the slaad than any direct derivative. And, no, I didn't see the dhampir on our list.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'd like folks to consider what this book is for, and how that impacts the "obsolescence" of the product when Paizo's own Bestiary II comes to print.
This product is not for Game Masters who want to run Pathfinder Society Organized Play modules, or who run Adventure Paths because they don't have time to design their own campaigns. PFS and Adventure Paths already have all their monsters, all statted out on the page, ready to go.
This book serves the GM who's looking for ingredients for a homebrew adventure, something custom-designed for her own players and their characters. And if that's the case, I'd be happy to see some overlap, and I'd be even happier if the Tricky Owlbear vision of, say, the Catoblepas is pretty different from the Bestiary II version, not just an extra couple of points of strength here, and an exchange of Feats there, and maybe dropping a hit die or something.
Because sooner or later, I'm going to have a player come sit at my table, secure in his out-of-character knowledge of how the Catoblepas works. And in that case, I'd appreciate having access to a version of the creature that puts his sense of wonder and caution back in the game.
Because sooner or later, I'm going to have a player come sit at my table, secure in his out-of-character knowledge of how the Catoblepas works. And in that case, I'd appreciate having access to a version of the creature that puts his sense of wonder and caution back in the game.
Exactly. Or as I would like to think of the various versions; genetic variants. Why would all catoblepas has to be alike? Otherwise, the predictability takes the fun out of the suspense. Got to keep those munchkins who memorized all the MMs off guard. ;)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Thirded,
It's always good to have different monster stats (assuming they're balanced, of course) i ran an adventure with what the party assumed was a doppleganger. They were shocked to fight a skin thief from creature collection II. They were more horrified when it grappled their psychic warrior and tore her face off. Now they had to catch it alive and force it to heal their companion and friends. So much for 'oh it's a doppleganger. Grab it!'
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ah, well our chaosiic are more "we want something to fill the role of weird beasts from "Limbo" role" as opposed to "Limbo-origin powerful frog creatures". I assure you the difference in abilities (and appearance) is quite extreme. It's more our nod to the slaad than any direct derivative. And, no, I didn't see the dhampir on our list.I'll take one. Can't ever have enough monster books.
It's not like everything in Bestiary II will be in Forgotten Foes, and vice versa (no Dhampir in FF I assume). My only concern is 'slaad with the serial numbers filed off' not quite being kosher.
Good and good. Just didn't want rabid packs of WotC lawyers attacking you.
I'd like folks to consider what this book is for, and how that impacts the "obsolescence" of the product when Paizo's own Bestiary II comes to print.
This product is not for Game Masters who want to run Pathfinder Society Organized Play modules, or who run Adventure Paths because they don't have time to design their own campaigns. PFS and Adventure Paths already have all their monsters, all statted out on the page, ready to go.
This book serves the GM who's looking for ingredients for a homebrew adventure, something custom-designed for her own players and their characters. And if that's the case, I'd be happy to see some overlap, and I'd be even happier if the Tricky Owlbear vision of, say, the Catoblepas is pretty different from the Bestiary II version, not just an extra couple of points of strength here, and an exchange of Feats there, and maybe dropping a hit die or something.
Because sooner or later, I'm going to have a player come sit at my table, secure in his out-of-character knowledge of how the Catoblepas works. And in that case, I'd appreciate having access to a version of the creature that puts his sense of wonder and caution back in the game.
Well said. And, because of the mention of the catoblepas, it looks like that's going in the book too. :)
I am so buying this book.
I am looking forward to it. Any release date yet?
I am so buying this book.
+1.
I am looking forward to it. Any release date yet?
We're hoping for May/June.
Just wanted to let everyone know that I've posted my first real Behind the Art post over at the Headless Hydra Games blog!
You can find it here; Headless Hydra Games
The first monster to arrive under my microscope is none other than the... Grimlock! A beloved subterranean creature of mine.
- Axel
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Here's the official scoop: Tricky Owlbear Publishing, Inc. is producing a monster book called Forgotten Foes which features between 110 and 120 monsters for your Pathfinder game. At first, the project started with just the classic monsters Paizo couldn't fit into its Bestiary but it has since filled out a bit with other interesting creatures the writers felt needed the PF treatment. This means you'll not only get old-school monsters like the aerial servant, flail snail, and slaad (which we renamed "chaosiic") but also newer favorites like the multiple types of inevitables, formians, and sin dragons! Each monster will be illustrated and come with its own Lore table.
If you restrict the book to creatures based on non-SRD "classic" creatures such as the aerial servant, slaadi, beholders, mind flayers, etc. then it will fill a possibly useful niche, for people who want to run classic old modules in Pathfinder RPG.
Paizo has stated on many occasions that they have no interest in duplicating the closed content creature types.
If you restrict the book to creatures based on non-SRD "classic" creatures such as the aerial servant, slaadi, beholders, mind flayers, etc. then it will fill a possibly useful niche, for people who want to run classic old modules in Pathfinder RPG.Paizo has stated on many occasions that they have no interest in duplicating the closed content creature types.
As stated, that's part of what we're doing. But we won't pigeonhole the book to just those types of creatures. One experiment Axel will likely comment on further is that several artists are illustrating creatures off the top of their heads and then the writers will create stats for them.
Hello again,
This week starts with some thoughts concerning Forgotten Foes and a small experiment!
If you want to know more, please come on over to the Headless Hydra Games Design Blog!
Oh yeah, and there is a small preview of one of Forgotten Foes new (and not so forgotten) foes!
- Axel
Hello again,
This week starts with some thoughts concerning Forgotten Foes and a small experiment!
If you want to know more, please come on over to the Headless Hydra Games Design Blog!
Oh yeah, and there is a small preview of one of Forgotten Foes new (and not so forgotten) foes!
- Axel
I really like the new cat-demon-thing. The planar campaign I used to run had an empire of jaguar people that this thing would have been perfect for.
Well, sounds to me like you should think seriously about writing this creature... :)
Well, sounds to me like you should think seriously about writing this creature... :)
Bret needs to work on the introduction, tables and all that jazz. If he does the monsters what will Stefen and I work on.
- Mark
Sorry about the long silence!
The HHG Art Direction blog returns today with a look at some of the easier pieces of Forgotten Foes!
Please come on over and see what we are currently working on!
www.headlesshydragames.wordpress.com
- Axel
If there's overlap between some monsters, perhaps they're just variations, something you can throw at your players who OWN Bestiary II, so they see a [insert name here], and they think; Excellent, I know all about the [insert name here].
Then when the combat is over, they think Man I thought the [insert name here] was different, oops.
Good stuff, Axel! Thanks for posting these weekly previews and thanks to you all for the continued good vibes for this book. (And I wouldn't want to meet that killer frog in a dark alley!)
Sorry about the long silence!
The HHG Art Direction blog returns today with a look at some of the easier pieces of Forgotten Foes!
Please come on over and see what we are currently working on!
www.headlesshydragames.wordpress.com
- Axel
Best bunyip ever..
We put together our first ad for FF using the cover art. Have a look!
Thanks, guys, we think it looks good too! As for the tag line, I must give credit to my brother who came up with it (he's the technical half of the Owlbear).
Cool.
Although that reminds me I've still got another 16 statblocks and 3,000 words to do on my portion of Tome of Monsters, slated for this fall from 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming. I don't think there's gonna be much overlap between our two products.
Cool.
Although that reminds me I've still got another 16 statblocks and 3,000 words to do on my portion of Tome of Monsters, slated for this fall from 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming. I don't think there's gonna be much overlap between our two products.
I doubt it, too, on the overlap. But even if there is some, I think we hashed that out in the above posts. :)
I doubt it, too, on the overlap. But even if there is some, I think we hashed that out in the above posts. :)Cool.
Although that reminds me I've still got another 16 statblocks and 3,000 words to do on my portion of Tome of Monsters, slated for this fall from 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming. I don't think there's gonna be much overlap between our two products.
Yup. Genetic variation FTW!
Update?
The writing is 99% complete and it looks like much of the art has also come in (including a new image which will probably be the new cover). From there's it's triple-checking the stats, an editing pass by me, and then layout. I'm still confident for a summer release! Thanks for asking, DF.
Like Bret said, most of the art has come in... 80 pieces to be exact and a small number of filler illustrations, like a series of very cool environmental illustrations.
- Axel