I think the best way to promote Pathfinder is to produce a low cost entry level product. Which is the same way most people found the game many years ago, with a relative buying them a red box set. Then Pathfinder fans can give them away to young relatives etc.
The second difficulty is finding other players. The gamer connection thread on these boards is great(and I found 2 players to add to my local group there). But with an overall decrease in the number of FLGS, something even more dedicated to helping players find a group would be useful.
I removed some bicketing and personal attacks.
Seriously, folks, this thread has been warned more than once. Play nice and leave the edition war stuff at the door.
OK, I have some updates on the status 'round my parts.
I hail from Indianapolis, the home of Gen-Con. However, it's generally a terrible place to find a FLGS. The one nearest to me, Games To Die For, specializes in board games, miniatures, and card games, and has only a tiny three-foot wire bookshelf with a dozen or so 4E books and three discounted Quintessential-line books from Mongoose Publishing.
I asked the proprietor what he thought of Pathfinder months ago, and he told me then that I was the first person ever to ask him about it (this was when Pathfinder was being released and had quite a bit of hubbub about it). I went in last night to talk to him again, and he told me again that nobody had asked about Pathfinder since then, and he stated that he thought that the PDF sales would bite into his brick-and-mortar business.
Although I'm mad that he doesn't stock PF, I understand that his core demographic is people who come in on Friday nights and play 6-hour Magic the Gathering tournaments, consuming $2-per-can Mountain Dew and $5-per-can Ramune. Selling gaming books just isn't part of the core business model.
The only other gaming store I'm aware of in town, The Game Preserve, has a fairly serviceable two bookshelf section for tabletop RPGs, but again the main seller is board games and Magic the Gathering. Pathfinder takes up about the same space as 4E, but the vast majority of the shelf is devoted to other roleplaying systems (Call of Cthulhu, White Wolf, Serenity, Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy, Conan, et al.)
What convinced me to buy Pathfinder, however, was being able to thumb through it in hard-copy beforehand. I ended up buying it as a PDF, but being able to look through it cinched the sale for me. Since then, I've been telling all my friends about Pathfinder, and at least one of them has gone out and bought it just because it carried on with the 3.5 tradition. Once I get the others who hate 4E, I'm sure Pathfinder will take root in our local gamer node.
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Once I get the others who hate 4E, I'm sure Pathfinder will take root in our local gamer node.
This is something I hope people will avoid on this thread... using words that carry a lot of emotional weight, such as 'hate' or 'disgust' and so on. I understand if someone says he prefers/like/doesn't like edition X or Y, but that's a matter of preference and choice. I like PF RPG, and although I prefer it to 4E, 4E does in my opinion have some mechanics that work better than their counterparts in 3E and PF RPG (hopefully some of them will end up eventually in PF RPG 2nd Edition).
Just went to a local book/music/movie store here in town, and did a quick pass through on the RPG section of the book store. There were about 2 bookcases dedicated to RPGs. On the one dedicated to D&D and derivatives, I saw:
Here in Lakeland, Florida I've noticed in retail book stores that the 4E books they stock sit there for quite a while (dusty books, I checked) while they are having some trouble keeping Pathfinder products stocked.
Of course, now a lot of really good 3PP are out of print because of the whole 4E "fiasco", so Paizo has the market cornered for those of us who just felt that 3.5 needed another facelift.
I just noticed, while searching Ebay for some 3.5 D&D stuff I still wanted, that the prices for those books seems to be climbing. I should have purchased them when others were ditching their books. Oh, well.
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Well I can only speak for SE and SW corners of Vermont and New Hampshire. I’m in two games, on in a home and another in a game store. The one at home has stuck with 3.5, and I’m trying to nudge them to Pathfiner. In the game in the gaming store, we tried 4.0 when it first came out. After two months of frustration, we went back to 3.5 then to pathfinder. Unfortunately our experiment with 4.0 cost us two players to Wow.
As for the local FLGS, I think the pathfinder materiel is selling better then the 4.0 stuff.
Once I get the others who hate 4E, I'm sure Pathfinder will take root in our local gamer node.This is something I hope people will avoid on this thread... using words that carry a lot of emotional weight, such as 'hate' or 'disgust' and so on. I understand if someone says he prefers/like/doesn't like edition X or Y, but that's a matter of preference and choice. I like PF RPG, and although I prefer it to 4E, 4E does in my opinion have some mechanics that work better than their counterparts in 3E and PF RPG (hopefully some of them will end up eventually in PF RPG 2nd Edition).
Quite right. I like some things that 4E did, and heck, if you include all the optional rules from the various 3.5, it's not that far of a stretch from 4E.
Let me rephrase: all my friends are extremely displeased by the stylistic and mechanical choices of 4E, and prefer 3.5 instead by a large margin. Personally, I say more power to the people who prefer 4E.
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I just noticed, while searching Ebay for some 3.5 D&D stuff I still wanted, that the prices for those books seems to be climbing. I should have purchased them when others were ditching their books. Oh, well.
Tell me about it... I did order a lot of AD&D and 3E stuff just before 4E came out, but now I deeply regret that I didn't order everything I missed/ignored over the years (for example, MM4, MM5 and some Volo's Guides). :(
I, for one, will use the word "hate". I tried to play 4e. I tried to give it a shot. I really did. But it didn't take long before I was wondering if clawing my eyeballs out with rusty spoons would provide a pleasant distraction.
This is not a place to bash 4E. (That is a different thread. :))
This is more about how the two products (D&D 4E and Pathfinder RPG) happend to be doing in your area. Just a reminder to stay on point. ;D
This is more about how the two products (D&D 4E and Pathfinder RPG) happend to be doing in your area. Just a reminder to stay on point. ;D
We might have better luck if the thread were comparing the performance of game systems/products in general, not exclusively 4e and PF. The fact is, the thread premise is sort of trollbaiting, even if the sales information is useful. AFAIC, selecting two systems to compare is actually making a statement of preference.
So, I'll put the question out there — in addition to PF and 4e, how are other game systems selling relative to those? Let's throw World of Darkness stuff in the mix, they must be getting a push from the Twilight Tweenies (not a judgment, just a fact). By getting info on the hobby as a whole, maybe we can keep the fanboys from each other's throats.
I'm not looking to bash 4e. But I'm not looking to hide my opinions either.
I, for one, will use the word "hate". I tried to play 4e. I tried to give it a shot. I really did. But it didn't take long before I was wondering if clawing my eyeballs out with rusty spoons would provide a pleasant distraction.This is not a place to bash 4E. (That is a different thread. :))
This is more about how the two products (D&D 4E and Pathfinder RPG) happend to be doing in your area. Just a reminder to stay on point. ;D
Umm... saying you hate something IS bashing it.
But either way, your post about hatred for 4th edition didn't have anything to do with how 4th edition (or Pathfinder) are selling in your area.
I'm not looking to bash 4e. But I'm not looking to hide my opinions either.
I, for one, will use the word "hate". I tried to play 4e. I tried to give it a shot. I really did. But it didn't take long before I was wondering if clawing my eyeballs out with rusty spoons would provide a pleasant distraction.This is not a place to bash 4E. (That is a different thread. :))
This is more about how the two products (D&D 4E and Pathfinder RPG) happend to be doing in your area. Just a reminder to stay on point. ;D
Umm... saying you hate something IS bashing it.
But either way, your post about hatred for 4th edition didn't have anything to do with how 4th edition (or Pathfinder) are selling in your area.
Saying that I hate something isn't bashing it. Saying "noone who knows anything about gaming could like it" is bashing it.
Maybe you and I have a different definition of hate. To me, when you say you hate something, then you are saying that you personally believe it shouldn't exist. If you hate someone, you want to kill them, wipe them off. If you dislike, or don't like someone, then you just don't want to deal with them or have them affect your life. If you hate a game, you think it shouldn't have ever been made.
That's just the way I see "hate." I know I've been loose in my use of the word at times in my life, and maybe even here on these boards, but when I catch myself, I at least try to remind myself of what that word really means.
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So, I'll put the question out there — in addition to PF and 4e, how are other game systems selling relative to those? Let's throw World of Darkness stuff in the mix, they must be getting a push from the Twilight Tweenies (not a judgment, just a fact). By getting info on the hobby as a whole, maybe we can keep the fanboys from each other's throats.
Well White Wolf has some changes coming up, it is not very detailed, but hints of the changes are announced here. Looks like they want to get back to working closely with the fans like they used to, which is good news, I drifted away from them when they drifted away from the fans.
Well White Wolf has some changes coming up, it is not very detailed, but hints of the changes are announced here. Looks like they want to get back to working closely with the fans like they used to, which is good news, I drifted away from them when they drifted away from the fans.
So, I'll put the question out there — in addition to PF and 4e, how are other game systems selling relative to those? Let's throw World of Darkness stuff in the mix, they must be getting a push from the Twilight Tweenies (not a judgment, just a fact). By getting info on the hobby as a whole, maybe we can keep the fanboys from each other's throats.
I left White Wolf when they came out with nWoD, so I haven't been paying attention to how it sells. Everyone I've talked to didn't like the direction, so they haven't bought anything either. I'll ask my FLGS owner next time I'm there though.
I have seen a resurgence in interest in D6 stuff though and have joined in. I downloaded the free books the other day, and if any of them strike me as particularly good I'm gonna go buy the actual book.
Maybe you and I have a different definition of hate. To me, when you say you hate something, then you are saying that you personally believe it shouldn't exist. If you hate someone, you want to kill them, wipe them off. If you dislike, or don't like someone, then you just don't want to deal with them or have them affect your life. If you hate a game, you think it shouldn't have ever been made.
That's just the way I see "hate." I know I've been loose in my use of the word at times in my life, and maybe even here on these boards, but when I catch myself, I at least try to remind myself of what that word really means.
I HATE mushrooms. Despise them. However, I couldn't care less if you like them. In fact, I hope you do because you can have mine. Just because I hate something doesn't mean I want to see that something destroyed, I just want NO part of that something. Others can eat all the mushrooms they like.
I HATE mushrooms. Despise them. However, I couldn't care less if you like them. In fact, I hope you do because you can have mine. Just because I hate something doesn't mean I want to see that something destroyed, I just want NO part of that something. Others can eat all the mushrooms they like.Maybe you and I have a different definition of hate. To me, when you say you hate something, then you are saying that you personally believe it shouldn't exist. If you hate someone, you want to kill them, wipe them off. If you dislike, or don't like someone, then you just don't want to deal with them or have them affect your life. If you hate a game, you think it shouldn't have ever been made.
That's just the way I see "hate." I know I've been loose in my use of the word at times in my life, and maybe even here on these boards, but when I catch myself, I at least try to remind myself of what that word really means.
Eh. As I said, different definitions.
I'd say I don't like mushrooms at all (though I do, just using your example).
Same topic, sans the flamebait title. I hope that the people who were interested in eyewitness reports will relocate there, and leave this one to the dogs.
Same topic, sans the flamebait title. I hope that the people who were interested in eyewitness reports will relocate there, and leave this one to the dogs.
Thank You for the new, more inclusive thread. :)
But, do keep a couple of things in mind
So a market performance compairison between the two products is not intentional "troll-baiting," but just a natural outgrowth of circumestances.
I at least try to remind myself of what that word really means.Nothing about the word 'hate' means 'to wipe from the face of the planet'. The word 'hate' means 'intense dislike'.
Except ... you didn't stop there. Your full qote was:
I, for one, will use the word "hate". I tried to play 4e. I tried to give it a shot. I really did. But it didn't take long before I was wondering if clawing my eyeballs out with rusty spoons would provide a pleasant distraction.
I hate 4e. I, also, hate broccoli and Clay Aiken music. People need to learn to deal with the fact that there are strong differences of opinion on these points and many others. The idea that we shouldn't say what we hate because it might hurt someone's feelings is offensive to me.
That is pretty much "trolling" as far as I can tell.
And, you then made no mention of how the two games being discussed appeared to be selling at your FLGS. :(
So a market performance compairison between the two products is not intentional "troll-baiting," but just a natural outgrowth of circumestances.
Oh I know. But it occurred to me (as I move it OUT of the Pathfinder forum) that the larger conversation can include that point. All without drawing in those apt to have expectations from the thread title.
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I think the idea that people are getting at regarding the "edition bashing" is to encourage people to talk up what Pathfinder IS, instead of what it is not. If Pathfinder is the game for those who hate 4e, then it is doomed. The game will forever be considered the "un-4e" instead of standing on its own legs. Leave the hate out of it and talk about what you like about the game that you play.
Oh I know. But it occurred to me (as I move it OUT of the Pathfinder forum) that the larger conversation can include that point. All without drawing in those apt to have expectations from the thread title.
So a market performance compairison between the two products is not intentional "troll-baiting," but just a natural outgrowth of circumestances.
True.
(b.t.w, thank you for not pointing out that I mispelled "circumstances". :()
So, putting 4e in the same category as broccoli is, in your opinion, "trolling"?
Trolling means to jump in a thread and try to provoke flaming.
Going on and on about you hate is "trolling. Going into graphic detail about your feelings also is.
Saying that I hate something shouldn't provoke flaming. I notice known of you took umbrage at me saying that I hate broccoli.
That is mostly because this is not a cooking forum.
You could just create a comparison thread on the differences between 4E and pathfinder, and advocates from either side could have a no holds bar gudge match lol. I do see alot of comments made in regards to playing 4E when it was initially released, and based on that experience, I have stated before my reaction was unfavorable. However, I do not associated any strong dislike for any gaming company in particular, so I let the games stand on their own.
But, alot of 4E statememts made on past experience (how it failed), is really becoming harder to support (unless there is a specific mechanic you like in one sytem versus the other like spells). There is stuff about 4E I still don't like, but the benefits outweigh those. There is stuff I really like about pathfinder, but some of the baggage from 3.5 still remains.
Based on my experience if people like D&D they will gravitate towards a more detailed system, therefore if they try 4E then will most likely move on to try pathfinder or 3.5.
Therefore, this fear or dislike of 4E success, is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. However, I can understand these feelings especially if 4E is taking notice of pathfinders success, and re-incorporates some lost 3.5 elements; that made it hard to swallow for converts.
There is a bias on this board in regards to pathfinder (to be expected), so I will on occasion speak up in regards to 4E, even if people come marching with torches and pitchforks.
I also stated often, that a key to pathfinders success beyond rules, is a computer generated character tool. Honestly, the price of purchasing the core pathfinder books is not prohibitive; but a tool would really help!
I can't decide to laugh or cry when someone generates a post to discuss a general concept about any game, only to have people make comments like don't discuss a specific game (for comparison), or always include statement like I hate a specific game, I burned the books, etc. That serves no purpose. If you state you hate a specific game in regards to a mechanic then expect futher discussion.
Like it or not, there is a common ground all D&D game versions share.
I at least try to remind myself of what that word really means.Nothing about the word 'hate' means 'to wipe from the face of the planet'. The word 'hate' means 'intense dislike'.
You really are trying to start a fight here, aren't you? I already stated when I gave my definition of the word hate that it was mine and that yours differs. I'm fine with that and I'm not gonna sit here debating semantics with you. To me hate is beyond intense dislike, to you, it's not. Whatever.
Now I'm gonna leave and go to that other, more inclusive thread to continue the productive discussion we were all having about current sales trends of different RPG's and how Paizo might be able to increase those sales, because I for one want to see Pathfinder prosper as best as it can.
And, you then made no mention of how the two games being discussed appeared to be selling at your FLGS. :(
That was really my main point in the first place.
smurf
Creative Director
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Sigh.
The "who's trolling what" theme of this thread has become boring. There's a new thread now (see upthread here) for folks to carry on a discussion of how good sales are for RPGs... hopefully without pointless bickering in it. I'm locking this thread down since it's purpose has moved to the other thread.
Please play nice, and remember that no one's keeping score of who wins internet arguments.