Cheating player...

[frustratedDM]

I run an online game using voice chat and a game table. I suspect one of my players, a good friend of mine, of cheating. Specifically I think he figured out which module I'm running them through and has downloaded it.

The past few sessions he's made some very specific guesses and discoveries that lead me to believe that he is cheating.

-Wanting to go back to search a room 2 more times after already thoroughly searching it. I decided to cut out the secret panels in that room to avoid the encounter they triggered and I put the magic items in them else where in the module, so they never found the panels because they didn't exist.

-Deciding that the main monster they're hunting is residing down from a ledge they walked out on. By itself it's not a stretch because it's a good clue, but then he correctly decides there must be a secret passage it travels through to get in and out of the lair, since the ledge is high up. Not too much of a stretch either, but until the past few sessions the group has only slowly been putting things together. And then the FIRST place he searches for a secret door is the exact spot that the module has the passage located. I had moved it though, and he seemed pretty confused when he didn't find anything there.

There are a few other things he's picked up on just a little too quickly as well. This kind of thing is hard to prove, but it's to the extent that I would be surprised if he wasn't cheating.

I used to be hesitant about running modules, while we grew up playing 1st and 2nd edition, for this reason, among some others, but we're much older now and I like running modules now because it takes a lot less time to prepare, and you get introduced to some cool things you might not have thought of on your own.

This module is almost done, so there's not much else I can do to thwart this cheating. For the next modules I'm planning I've thought about changing names of NPCs and locations and such, but it might get a little more problematic if player handouts are involved or not, plus I could slip up and read something using original names. Also I thought about altering a lot of things in the module, but this would take time I'm not sure I want to take.

Anyways, I'm open to advice. More specifically about this kind of cheating, and not the kind involving dice fudging and bad math, which is more common. Our online game table takes removes the ability to cheat that way.

[0gre]

Don't tell them what module you are running or tell him the name of one module and run a similar one. If it's a long running adventure (like an AP) then you just have to alter it or deviate into an entirely different module. You can also just pick wholesale encounters from other modules as long as they are roughly the same CR.

I don't think it has much to do with online gaming, you can do the same thing just reading ahead and memorizing an in person game. Shy of booting him from the group there isn't much you can do.

[M P 433]

I had the same thing happen my tabletop game years ago. After one session of watching the cheating, I went to the other players to discuss their feelings, my concerns, and what to do. The other players agreed to "play dumb" and not take advantage of the player's cheating (group therapy?) In return, I moved certain treasures to other locales. It became pretty obvious when he insisted on searching the "west wall" the next session (supposed to have been a secret door with some good loot) and voila, empty. The players helped out by reading a book (that summoned a demon if read). The cheater, who was playing a barbarian at the time, yelled out to not read the book. When he couldn't explain why he had such a gut feeling, our player read the book. After the battle, this player confronted the cheater and gave his suspicions, and the other players backed him up.

Long story short, I let the group gradually call him out that he was ruining their fun by having gotten a copy of the adventure and that the game wasn't so much about "winning" as it was about the unexpected, the unpredictable, and adjusting to it all for excitement. You may not be able to rehabilitate your player, but it's worth a try if the rest of the group helps. If you can't succeed, it's best to boot them rather than ruin everyone's fun and waste their time.

[hogarth]

If he's your good friend, I'd flat out ask him -- in a friendly manner -- if he's reading ahead.

[fray]

Change things up... like what you have been doing. Move secret doors/passages to other rooms. Change the monsters around, instead of zombies, make them gnolls or fairies.
Go for fun changes too... like adding 6 more rooms to the 2nd story of that mansion.
If he starts to be whiny about it, tell him why you are doing all these things...
It's a tough situation to be in. I hope it turns out alright in the end.

[KaeYoss]

Put a deadly, but easy to spot, trap in a place where none was - some really big treasure chest, for example.

If he doesn't even bother to check for traps and is transfixed by wounding souldrinker spears that were basically hanging over him but he never looked for, you know.

[DeathQuaker]

hogarth wrote:

If he's your good friend, I'd flat out ask him -- in a friendly manner -- if he's reading ahead.

Agreed. If he's a friend, and heck, even if he's not, you should be able to talk to him about this.

I really, really dislike the advice to be passive aggressive about it--"just punish him in game to see if he notices." NO. He's doing something wrong, and you need to call him out on it directly. That's the only way to make sure your message to him is clear. (Otherwise, he'll probably assume you're "attacking" him--you have to set yourself up as the good guy, and part of that means doing the mature thing and talking to him openly about it.)

Ask him if he's played or read the adventure before. Ask him to please avoid metagaming, as it ruins your fun and the other players' fun. Tell him you're going to be changing some of the details of the adventure around so it'll be new and exciting for everyone.

Also give him a chance to explain himself. Allow for the possibility that it really is coincidence, or that he realized he was metagaming/cheating but he's sorry.

If he's your friend, he will respect you. He might be upset at first, but in the end, he's your friend, and he'll respect you.

If he gets completely angry, blows things out of proportion, accuses you of being unfair, etc. etc. etc. even after given some time to process the discussion, then he's not your friend, and he's a poor player you don't want in your group to begin with. Better be rid of him now than ruin your whole campaign later.

[Dark_Mistress]

I agree talking to him should be tried first. The only problem with that is if he is cheating he very well might lie about it and you lack any proof. I would lay out why you felt the need to ask and if he still denies it.

Accept that he isn't and then change things up in the adventure. I would especially do something then that like. If a spot where there is a secret door their is a trap instead. Nothing deadly just enough to hurt his character. See how he reacts then.

In the end all you can really do short of proof is change things in the adventure. But then that is something I do anyways and I tell my player before hand.

[Valegrim]

well, change things up; take your map to a mirror; photograph it so everything is backwards directionswise; then change a few mobs; if you get complaints about direction; then you know for sure.

[CourtFool]

Dark_Mistress wrote:

I agree talking to him should be tried first.

+2 Cheater Slayer

[Valegrim]

well, its just a suspicion by you now right; am suggesting you confirm it somehow is all. I dont think it is right to convict someone without any proof.

[Dennis Harry]

I agree with all the earlier posters. Especially the point that this player is playing to win like its monopoly.

I would approach the player (especially if it is a friend) and call them out on your belief. Not accusing them just stating what you think and the evidence which leads you to feel this way. Explain to them that the surprise is the fun of the game not "winning". Try to find out what that players motivation in playing is and why they feel the need to "read ahead".

Hopefully that will prevent further cheating.

I have had cheaters in my group before (mostly of the dice rolling kind). I solved that by watching key roles. As we have gotten older I have found that the cheating stopped, players are fascinated about what I am going to do when they fail as much as when they succeed.

This may be extreme but I would recommend you allow the player to stay and (1) follow above suggestions and just switch certain aspects of modules around while (2) not announcing what you are running to prevent players from getting a hold of modules. Personally I hate to kick anyone out unless they are disruptive to the point where no one is having fun anymore.

[sanwah68]

Funny, I actually do the exact opposite to what most people have suggested. I tell my players what I am planning on running. Mainly because that with a group of experienced players/DMs that play outside of the group I run, odds are someone may have played, or even run, the module before. I have had occasions where I have had to go with my third choice because of this.

I have had a player deliberately read ahead (pretty obvious when he argued with me that the magic sword didn't do I said it did). So I and the rest of the group had a long talk to him about how we wished to play the game and, to my knowledge, he hasn't done it again.

[Stewart Perkins]

I've had my fair share of all of the above. I have a friend who is an avid Paizo fan and has a good selection of the aps and modules, and I have ran games with him where he didn't let it show even though I knew he had read it because he's cool like that. Then I have players who always "misread" spells and rules skewing them in odd ways until I start to look up the rule then they quickly remember the proper wording, and they roll VERY well, including stats when I'm not paying attention and the like. It isn't a huge deal and if I catch them, I call them on it and that usually settles it. Hey if you have to cheat at make believe be my guest.

Now an important note: If you're cheating is causing trouble for other players or hampering their fun then we have a problem, also rules mongering and arguing are big no-no's.

[Dragonborn3]

Valegrim wrote:

well, change things up; take your map to a mirror; photograph it so everything is backwards directionswise; then change a few mobs; if you get complaints about direction; then you know for sure.

I like this idea. Reverse the map, and put a trap where the secret door was originally, for a bit of added torme- I mean, evidence gathering.

>.>
<.<

[frustratedDM]

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone. It's still a tough call about what to do. I asked another player about the suspected cheaters actions, and he didn't mention that he thought the player was acting out of the ordinary, and then I expressed my concern that our friend may be reading the module. And he said the only way to prove it is to set up a trap.

I know my friend would probably deny it to the grave, not that he's generally a tricky or deceptive person, I just think he doesn't like others to think negatively of him, and generally he's a good guy anyway. So if I talk to him about it, I know he'll deny it, but maybe it will also get him to stop. Or maybe it'll have the reverse effect and just have him be more careful about it.

The module is almost finished anyway, just 2 combats and no more secrets left, so planning any kind of traps for proof won't really work. I think the best thing for now is to let them finish this module. Looking at the next module I'll take them through, Masks of the Living God, it looks like it's very heavy in the roleplaying aspect of things, so cheating might not be so helpful, we'll see... I'll make sure to change around proper nouns and such as well. I'd hate to take credit away from the author, but might try telling them it's my own adventure, so he won't go looking for the module.

[Rezdave]

frustratedDM wrote:

might try telling them it's my own adventure, so he won't go looking for the module.

Until you pull out a book for reference, unless you're using a PDF and never let them see your screen.

Mirroring should be fun, but he'll catch onto that.

Another idea might be to take the plot of one module and combine it with the maps from others. Just because the plot says there has to be a keep with a dungeon-crypt below doesn't mean it has to be that one.

I routinely run adventures that are mash-ups of 2-3 modules plus a little (or a lot) of my own stuff. I do it for different reasons, fortunately, and expel the rare cheaters.

FWIW,

Rez

[Magicdealer]

I kind of like using the classical conditioning method of training players not to cheat.

It works like this:

Once you have determined that a player is cheating, spring the question:

"Has anyone read this module before? I don't remember if I asked this earlier, so I should probably do so now."

Easy question, and right there he can get himself off the hook.

It also tells him that you're suspicious.

If the player in question does not speak up, wait and see if the problem continues. If it doesn't, then good. If it does, then you get to have fun.

Start replacing switches and levers with traps that grant one permanent negative level.

Killing the character just means he has to reroll. Sucking a level (or a couple con points if level 1) means that he has to keep playing it at a disadvantage to the other players.

Watch for a repeat of the suspicious behavior. If it continues, whack him with another one. See what he does.

After all, you can do this all day, until you knock his con down to a 2, and then leave him alone to suffer the repercussions of playing through an entire module as a significantly underpowered character who just happens to not get hit hard enough to be killed.

I've had this process work successfully with two different players. But only use this technique if you're really sure that the player is cheating. It's really, really rotten to do to someone who doesn't deserve it. But it can really help against those long-term cheaters. After all, when the next module starts up, and they start doing it again, and get hit with another negative level, things will really click.

Yeah, I know I'm cold-hearted, but cheating is one of those things that really ticks me off. Your mileage may vary.

[hogarth]

frustratedDM wrote:

So if I talk to him about it, I know he'll deny it, but maybe it will also get him to stop. Or maybe it'll have the reverse effect and just have him be more careful about it.

Either of those would be a reasonable solution, in my book. As long as it's not affecting anyone else's fun.

[W E Ray]

Two things I want to add, one is to remind you of why you're running a module instead of designing one -- it takes a long time to design one and there's lots of good stuff out there.

If you have to take the time to redesign rooms, maps, NPC names, etc., then the accused Player is hampering your gaming experience -- even if it's not bothering the other Players.

Mention this to the Players as agroup -- that you're running a published adventure because it's high quality and, frankly, you don't have time to design one yourself. Ask them not to read the adventure and, as mentioned, if any of them already have.

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The other thing you can try, not yet mentioned: let him "win" because of his inside info!

He's read (cheated) that the NPC merchant (or whatever) is really working for the BBEG as a spy, or is an imp in disguise and is trying to lure the PCs away and betray them (or somesuch).

When he makes his uncanny guess that the NPC is evil, have the NPC reveal himself and walk away, defeated. And, as a result the BBEG quits his whole plan because it's been discovered. And the Module is finished (or that chapter is finished).

That's not fun.

The "cheating" Player may act briefly that he sure is glad he guessed about the NPC but he won't be. Lack of challenge is not fun.

So let him ruin a good mystery. Let him walk through a dungeon like a cake walk. Let him even brag about how smart of a Player he is for figuring stuff out. It won't last.

[Kakarasa]

W E Ray wrote:

Two things I want to add, one is to remind you of why you're running a module instead of designing one -- it takes a long time to design one and there's lots of good stuff out there.

If you have to take the time to redesign rooms, maps, NPC names, etc., then the accused Player is hampering your gaming experience -- even if it's not bothering the other Players.

Mention this to the Players as agroup -- that you're running a published adventure because it's high quality and, frankly, you don't have time to design one yourself. Ask them not to read the adventure and, as mentioned, if any of them already have.

---------------------------------------------------------

The other thing you can try, not yet mentioned: let him "win" because of his inside info!

He's read (cheated) that the NPC merchant (or whatever) is really working for the BBEG as a spy, or is an imp in disguise and is trying to lure the PCs away and betray them (or somesuch).

When he makes his uncanny guess that the NPC is evil, have the NPC reveal himself and walk away, defeated. And, as a result the BBEG quits his whole plan because it's been discovered. And the Module is finished (or that chapter is finished).

That's not fun.

The "cheating" Player may act briefly that he sure is glad he guessed about the NPC but he won't be. Lack of challenge is not fun.

So let him ruin a good mystery. Let him walk through a dungeon like a cake walk. Let him even brag about how smart of a Player he is for figuring stuff out. It won't last.

First part - I agree that the player is stealing your fun as GM in a way. Magicdealer's idea of negative level levers goes well with this and the combination made me chuckle.

Second part - The only thing that sucks about this is if you have purchased an entire adventure path and there are limited players in your area. ESPECIALLY if they know you dropped cash on something for the enjoyment of the group. This is not the case for me, but my friend in Kansas has to drive an hour and a half for a decent game. I agree with using the psychology you're setting out, but I'd hate for the other players to suffer because Cheater McCheatiepants can't not 'winning'. It's a tough choice, but I guess it's better then telling the cheater to STFU and GTFO. lol

[Sir_Wulf]

I agree that it's best to approach things directly, but not in an accusatory fashion. Asking "Have any of you seen parts of this one?" as you pull out a new adventure is a reasonable way to gett hey guy to let himself off the hook.

Even though no one has seen the adventure (or admits to it), I'd still "tweak" it to suit the party and its play style. Perhaps they enjoy more roleplaying or more action: Adjust things to suit them. While you're at it, you can seek out whatever is most likely to tempt a cheater and "flip" it to reverse its impact. After you give the belt of uber-machismo the masculinity/femininity property or add a secret chamber of howling, mummified berserkers where the treasure cache "should" be, he'll get the point that such cheats are counterproductive.

[frustratedDM]

After another session and even more clues that he's cheating, I've decided to talk to my friend about his cheating. I have a list of 8 actions or things he has said which alone would just be a coincidence, but with 8 of them, it can only be cheating.

I thought they would be done with the module by now, but he spent the whole session searching for things that were not there because I've moved/removed them. This is the 3rd or 4th session spent searching. The whole time they've been a rope climb away from fighting the end bad guy.

I know he will deny it, and probably even become upset that I don't believe him. But maybe it will at least get him to stop. We'll see how it goes. Thanks everyone for the advice and suggestions!

[Luna eladrin]

Do the other players accept that he spends so much time searching? I guess they will be impatient by now...

Perhaps you can use this fact to your advantage.