Bolas are ranged trip. In 3.5, far shot doubles range, which means max range for a bola becomes 100 ft. In PF, no, bonuses halved, so max range is 50 ft. Also, it used to be 'ranged touch, then resolve trip.' Now it's just a trip, at range, so it's A) harder to do, and B) the range penalty goes to the trip
It used to be you could probably just skip the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, because that's all of -4 on a touch attack.
Now, you need EWP and your chance of success is lower because range penalties apply to the trip attempt.
Am I missing something?
Granted, most people overlook the bola completely so I'm not sure how many people CARE...
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Bolas are ranged trip. In 3.5, far shot doubles range, which means max range for a bola becomes 100 ft. In PF, no, bonuses halved, so max range is 50 ft. Also, it used to be 'ranged touch, then resolve trip.' Now it's just a trip, at range, so it's A) harder to do, and B) the range penalty goes to the trip
It used to be you could probably just skip the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, because that's all of -4 on a touch attack.
Now, you need EWP and your chance of success is lower because range penalties apply to the trip attempt.Am I missing something?
Granted, most people overlook the bola completely so I'm not sure how many people CARE...
Well, first of all, the idea of someone using bolas without EWP is a little ridiculous to begin with, so I'm totally fine with requiring it to make functional use of the weapon. The very idea of hurling a bola over 50' or so is similarly hard to believe, so the range isn't really a problem for me either. Far Shot lets you maximize your effectiveness within that 50' range, though, and trip attacks target CMD now, not AC, so they're not actually that hard to pull off except against foes with beefy BABs and/or high STR scores.
Interesting. Yes, it looks like it's much harder to trip with bolas if you're not proficient.
It's also harder to trip even if you are, due to range and maneuvers in general.
It's also harder to trip even if you are, due to range and maneuvers in general.
I disagree that "maneuvers in general" are necessarily harder. You can stack all kinds of attack bonuses on your trip check now (e.g. bless, bardic music, haste, prayer, weapon focus, etc.).
I guess the range modifiers make a difference, too.
I've been curious about the bolas, too.
Am I correct that RAW, you would have to take Agile Maneuvers to use your DEX bonus instead of your STR bonus as part of your CMB even though it is a ranged attack?
It seems odd not to factor in DEX for a ranged attack even if you don't have the Agile Maneuvers feat.
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As is the case with Weapon Finesse, if you're using an attack form that allows you to substitute DEX for STR on your attack roll and you use that attack form to perform a combat maneuver, you can make the same substitution to CMB. I'd extend this to ranged attacks (thus ranged combat maneuvers use DEX, not STR, to calculate CMB).
It seems odd not to factor in DEX for a ranged attack even if you don't have the Agile Maneuvers feat.
Yes, I agree it seems odd that bodybuilders make the best gauchos. ;-)
I'd probably say to use Dex by default with bolas, if it ever came up.
Am I missing something?
Since bolas are a trip weapon, you can apply any feats/abilities that increase attack rolls to your CMB when tripping with the weapon (Weapon Focus: Bolas, Weapon Training: Thrown, Favored Enemy, etc.). Also, you apply any enhancement bonus given to the bolas to your CMB when tripping. Finally, you apply any other bonuses you get to attack rolls with the weapon -- from, say, heroism, bardic music, haste, etc. -- on your CMB to trip.
Good points... though weapon focus (bola) would be a little, er, odd.
Tom> Ok, I get what your saying.
If you're using a rapier to Disarm someone and you have the Weapon Finesse feat, you can use DEX instead of STR for your CMB. I 100% agree that's how the rules work in that case.(Although I can't actually find where that rule is in the rulebook.)I hope that people will see using a ranged CMB attack should work the same way.
I am trying to avoid someone crying foul, if I create a bola-throwing character, don't give him the Agile Maneuvers feat, and use his DEX bonus instead of his STR bonus to calculate his CMB.
Anyone get this weird weapon figured out yet? I am playing a bounty hunter that uses them and my entire gaming group is scratching their heads on how they are intended to work.
Official input would be great. I've come across a large number of threads asking the same thing, but none with any real answers.
Anyone get this weird weapon figured out yet? I am playing a bounty hunter that uses them and my entire gaming group is scratching their heads on how they are intended to work.
Official input would be great. I've come across a large number of threads asking the same thing, but none with any real answers.
Not sure what the issue is. You make a CMB for trip at range, using your regular CMB. It doesn't specify you use dex instead of strength, so it's a standard CMB check, only from 50' away.
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Not sure what the issue is. You make a CMB for trip at range, using your regular CMB. It doesn't specify you use dex instead of strength, so it's a standard CMB check, only from 50' away.Anyone get this weird weapon figured out yet? I am playing a bounty hunter that uses them and my entire gaming group is scratching their heads on how they are intended to work.
Official input would be great. I've come across a large number of threads asking the same thing, but none with any real answers.
Well, according to Jason Buhlman, all combat maneuvers are melee attacks.
Is using a bola a melee attack?
There are plenty of other questions in this thread and others that have not been answered.
- Can you use Dexterity on the CMB check rather than Strength since it is a ranged attack? If not, then why? Does Dex not make more sense?
- Do you have to hit with it before you can make the CMB check?
- Does it deal damage and trip, or do you have to choose one or the other?
- Is it made of wood or metal for the purposes of things like darkwood and adamantine?
- Does a small character really take a -1 size penalty to his CMB when using bolas?
- Do you take range increment penalties on your CMB check when using them to trip?
- Are you still limited to tripping a creature one size larger than you when throwing bolas? What if I were to use larger bolas?
- Does using bolas to trip provoke attacks of opportunity?
- Trip specifically says make a melee attack. How do I do that with bolas (a strictly ranged weapon)?
- If I fail the trip by 10 or more, do I get tangled up in my own bolas, tripping myself? Can I drop them to avoid that happening?
- I think we are all aware of what the RAW says on some of these, but what was the developer's intent? How are they meant to be used?
I really don't get the bolas.
Say a fighter is chasing a goblin. Both have 30 ft movement speed.
The fighter is 40 feet away from the goblin and throws the bolas, tripping the goblin as a standard action. He then uses his move action to move 30 feet closer to the goblin.
The goblin spends a move action standing up and then another move action to move 30 feet away, so at the end of the round the goblin is 40 feet away, so nothing has changed from the beginning of the round.
Shouldn't a bolas take an escape artist or strength check to untie or something? I just don't get this weapon.
I would probably house rule that bolas use dex, not str in the CMB. I would probably also rule it's a move action to unwrap the bolas from your legs. I wouldn't require an escape artist or str check to get loose since the bolas just wrap around the target, they don't magically tie themselves in a knot.
I really don't get the bolas.
Say a fighter is chasing a goblin. Both have 30 ft movement speed.
The fighter is 40 feet away from the goblin and throws the bolas, tripping the goblin as a standard action. He then uses his move action to move 30 feet closer to the goblin.
The goblin spends a move action standing up and then another move action to move 30 feet away, so at the end of the round the goblin is 40 feet away, so nothing has changed from the beginning of the round.
Shouldn't a bolas take an escape artist or strength check to untie or something? I just don't get this weapon.
Trip up a goblin when an allied fighter is already on top of him and he's meat.
Trip up a goblin when an allied fighter is already on top of him and he's meat.I really don't get the bolas.
Say a fighter is chasing a goblin. Both have 30 ft movement speed.
The fighter is 40 feet away from the goblin and throws the bolas, tripping the goblin as a standard action. He then uses his move action to move 30 feet closer to the goblin.
The goblin spends a move action standing up and then another move action to move 30 feet away, so at the end of the round the goblin is 40 feet away, so nothing has changed from the beginning of the round.
Shouldn't a bolas take an escape artist or strength check to untie or something? I just don't get this weapon.
That's not how it was traditionally used :(
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Am I correct that RAW, you would have to take Agile Maneuvers to use your DEX bonus instead of your STR bonus as part of your CMB even though it is a ranged attack?
No. RAW a combat maneuver roll is an attack roll, and all appropriate modifiers to that roll apply. In the case of using weapons to perform combat maneuvers all weapon-appropriate modifiers apply if the weapon has the related combat maneuver quality. A bolas, being a ranged weapon uses your Dexterity modifier on the attack roll, not your Strength modifier; since it has the trip quality (and uses it at range) that means you also use your Dexterity modifer instead of your Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check to trip someone with it.
In fact, unless you have some special ability to use Strength instead of Dexterity on ranged attacks, you don't even have the option of using your Strength on the combat maneuver roll to trip at range with a bolas.
(See 'Combat Maneuvers' on pages 198 to 199 of the Core Book)
Can you use Dexterity on the CMB check rather than Strength since it is a ranged attack? If not, then why? Does Dex not make more sense?
As noted above, you have to use your Dexterity because it's a ranged attack, and combat maneuver rolls are attack rolls.
Do you have to hit with it before you can make the CMB check?
No - combat maneuver rolls are attack rolls.
Does it deal damage and trip, or do you have to choose one or the other?
You choose, just like with any other weapon possessing the trip quality. Nothing in the text suggests otherwise.
Is it made of wood or metal for the purposes of things like darkwood and adamantine?
The GameMastery Guide (page 122) says neither.
Does a small character really take a -1 size penalty to his CMB when using bolas?
Nothing suggests otherwise.
Do you take range increment penalties on your CMB check when using them to trip?
Yes. Combat maneuver rolls are attack rolls.
Are you still limited to tripping a creature one size larger than you when throwing bolas? What if I were to use larger bolas?
Yes to the first - nothing suggests otherwise. The second is a bit more tricky, but the same question can apply to any weapon with the trip quality, in theory - does weapon size matter? RAW would suggest no, it's all based on the attacker's size.
Does using bolas to trip provoke attacks of opportunity?
Yes - but only versus the guy you're tripping (as per the usual combat manuever rules)... so he's bang out of luck unless you try to bolas him at point blank range, or he has a really long reach...
Trip specifically says make a melee attack. How do I do that with bolas (a strictly ranged weapon)?
Bolas is even more specific in saying that you can use it to make a ranged trip attack. Specifics trump generalities.
If I fail the trip by 10 or more, do I get tangled up in my own bolas, tripping myself? Can I drop them to avoid that happening?
Yes to both, as per the usual rules for tripping with a trip quality weapon. Nothing suggests otherwise.
Personally I see no problems here at all - the key is just remembering that all combat maneuver rolls are attack rolls, and going from there.
Seems weird that I'm more likely to trip myself with my own bolas, not because I rolled badly, but because many of my enemies will have an insane CMD.
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Weird... yes... but hardly alone in the rules as far as that quality goes! :)
EDIT: But I can't see it ever cropping up much - who wouldn't choose just to drop the thing instead? You're not likely to be threatened whilst using it (unless you make a habit of using ranged weapons whilst threatened), so it's not a big deal to drop it, then just pick it up and try again next round.
Am I missing something?
That what you were calling nerfs, were justified corrections to the weapon.
Seems weird that I'm more likely to trip myself with my own bolas, not because I rolled badly, but because many of my enemies will have an insane CMD.
Sorry?
You can't be tripped during your own trip attempt when using a bolas.
Seems weird that I'm more likely to trip myself with my own bolas, not because I rolled badly, but because many of my enemies will have an insane CMD.Sorry?
You can't be tripped during your own trip attempt when using a bolas.
Lol. Forgot all about that. :P
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As is the case with Weapon Finesse, if you're using an attack form that allows you to substitute DEX for STR on your attack roll and you use that attack form to perform a combat maneuver, you can make the same substitution to CMB. I'd extend this to ranged attacks (thus ranged combat maneuvers use DEX, not STR, to calculate CMB).
from the prd on performing a combat maneuver: When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
weapon finess' bonus is the normal bonus.
so if a finesse fighter were to use his rapier to disarm, he'd still use CMB calculated from bab + strength modifier, because this CMB replaces the normal bonus on the attack roll.
that's why the Agile Maneuvers feat exists, to replace your dexerity on all combat maneuvers. its weapon finesse for maneuvers. =/
And thus I'd think unless you do take agile maneuvers, you use your strength + bab on a trip attack with bolas from range. =/
You've obviously never done cowpunching. Hint: it's not a job for a delicate twinkletoes fencer.Yes, I agree it seems odd that bodybuilders make the best gauchos. ;-)
I don't suppose you have a Youtube link to a video of some weightlifter using bolas, do you? 'Cause that would be awesome. :-)