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Hello Everyone and thanks for taking the time to read this post and lend a helping hand!
I will be rolling my paladin tomorrow and I have the type of character I want him to be in mind. so I will outline him and his purpose and I want you guys to help me fill in the Blanks..
Using only PFRPG Books and PF supplements by paizo
we will be rolling our stats tomorrow.
I will be playing a human Paladin of Iomedae
filling the tank/fighter/secondary healer? role..
I want to use Longsword and shield and use medium armor to start maybe move on to something heavy? I would like to deal an impressive amount of damage and be able to take it too.
this campaign will take place in Varisia.
I am trying to decide which route to go for Divine Bond
and I really need to know which feats would best suit this character
2 traits can be taken
What should my stats rank in order of most important to least? CHA #1?
for you guys that will recommend the search function, I read Thallins guide and some other posts but didnt exactly find what I was looking for..
Thats all I can think of right now.. looking forward to your posts!
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I should also note that I am requesting this help because as it stands I am not 100% with all the rules, feats, abilities and such.. and also not being very familiar with designing my own builds.. I have only played some 3.5, and 1 game of PF Societies 2 weeks ago to freshen up and get the rust off :D
and I know you guys helped me with a build recently, and I am grateful but as things turn out this character will be the one I am rolling come tomorrow :D
I want to use Longsword and shield and use medium armor to start maybe move on to something heavy? I would like to deal an impressive amount of damage and be able to take it too.
Heavy armor -- despite initial movement limitations -- is kind of necessary if you expect to play later levels. Your mount can fix movement problems later. Longsword is fine. Be sure to carry around a two-handed weapon (I prefer one with reach) to deal some bigger damage, a light weapon, and a ranged weapon.
I am trying to decide which route to go for Divine Bond
Take the horse. It's almost always better, and it fixes your movement problems.
I really need to know which feats would best suit this character
Power Attack is pretty much always a good choice for a melee-focused build. I like the Power Attack -> Cleave -> Great Cleave line. Weapon Focus is alright, but I like mixing up different kinds of weapons and feats are scarce. Dexterity is usually kind of low, so Improved Initiative is a good feat. Enhancing lay on hands is kind of blah, but taking Extra Channel later on isn't a horrible option if you don't have a cleric on hand. When you get a horse, Mounted Combat + Ride-By Attack + Spirited Charge is a good feat chain. Toughness isn't bad either -- especially since you mention tanking.
2 traits can be taken
I personally like Deft Dodger and Reactionary.
What should my stats rank in order of most important to least? CHA #1
Depends on what you like. I prefer Strength heavy paladins with Charisma as a strong secondary stat -- but reversing those isn't a bad choice. Constitution makes a nice tertiary stat. I usually skimp on Dexterity/Intelligence and flat-out dump Wisdom.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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If you are wedded to sword and shield AND you have good stats, I would go TWF. Your stating feats would be TWF and Double Slice.
If you don't have great stats (i.e. enough to toss 15 in Dex without it hurting) really consider one of the following: archery (which is unreasonably good), using a lance, or using a 2H weapon.
In any case, I would go Str > Cha > Con > Int = Dex > Wis, unless you need 15 dex for TWF.
Bond depends on if the adventure is indoor or outdoors. If you are small, get a mount regardless. If you are medium, only get the mount if the adventure is outdoors OR the DM allows you to get mounts that are on the druid list but not the paladin list (like big cat).
For traits: if you have a good int (i.e. you roll really well) look at adding class skills...my favorite is UMD if you grab Dangerously Curious (it works with your big Cha). If you start at 1st level, Rich Parents is nice. It does nothing for you after level 1, but it starts you off with much, much better equipment.
I like the TWF with the shield as well, but I'm not sold on double slice being worth it, especially early on. Lets say you have 18 Str and take double slice. Now that gives you +2 damage to your offhand attack, that you can only use once a round, and then only if you full attack. Meh. I just don't think thats worth it. Theres lots of other feats that would have a more significant impact, especially for feat hungry paladins. Maybe later on if you are able to take 2nd and 3rd off hand attacks, but how many paladins get 19 dex and Greater TWF?
Benefits of double slice by Strength score:
10-11 Str -- +0 damage
12-15 Str -- +1 damage
16-19 Str -- +2 damage
20-23 Str -- +3 damage
etc...
Well I'm playing a Human Paladin in my game aswell and decided on the tank spec, and here's what I got in terms of stats and feats that might be able to help you if you decide to roll that way
Str: 16
Dex: 19
Con: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 7
Cha: 17 (18)(19)(20)
Holy Defender Build Feat Progression
H: Improved Shield Bash
1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Combat Reflexs
5: Stand Still
7: Sheild Slam
9: Shield Focus
11: Shield Master
13: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
I haven't decided on the last 2 feats because I'm not that high yet, but this build while not most effective at low levels still provides you with a decent AC and depending on your gear the oppertunity to use shield bash with only a -2 on each hit, Combat Reflexs for if your going to tank to get in that extra attack if they pass you, and Stand still to prevent them from moving past you. Shield Master eliminates all penelties when using a shield for bashing which gives you extra attacks at no penenlties and bonus to hit and damage. Hope this helps
I'd lose Shield Focus. Its just not worth it. The bonus won't help with Shield Master (the designers have said this several times), so its just giving you a +1 to AC when you have your shield equipped. If you want the AC that bad just take dodge, which would actually apply to touch attacks and CMD as well.
If you are going shield slam then definitely consider the Power Attack/Imp Bull Rush/Grtr Bull Rush feats. Bull Rush isn't always the greatest thing, but the greater bull rush is pretty nice. The big thing is that it makes your opponenets movement from the bull rush provoke attacks of opportunities (from your allies but not you). You'd probably have to lose Combat Reflexes, Stand Still and Shield Focus to do that. But Combat Reflexes and Stand Still have much greater use for a reach weapon fighter than a shield fighter, unless you anticipate being enlarged often enough it the feats will probably be too situational too see a whole lot of use. And Power Attack would let you keep your damage output decent.
If you want the AC that bad just take dodge, which would actually apply to touch attacks and CMD as well.
Wait, what? Dodge applies to CMD??
Wait, what? Dodge applies to CMD??If you want the AC that bad just take dodge, which would actually apply to touch attacks and CMD as well.
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I like the TWF with the shield as well, but I'm not sold on double slice being worth it, especially early on. Lets say you have 18 Str and take double slice. Now that gives you +2 damage to your offhand attack, that you can only use once a round, and then only if you full attack. Meh. I just don't think thats worth it. Theres lots of other feats that would have a more significant impact, especially for feat hungry paladins. Maybe later on if you are able to take 2nd and 3rd off hand attacks, but how many paladins get 19 dex and Greater TWF?
Benefits of double slice by Strength score:
10-11 Str -- +0 damage
12-15 Str -- +1 damage
16-19 Str -- +2 damage
20-23 Str -- +3 damage
etc...
16 strength is pretty standard. Also, it means you have to do less math, especially when you get buffed, which even at low level isn't impossible (Enlarge Person is nice).
There are a lot of good paladin feats, but a lot of them are better on archers of 2H weapon users.
Here's the build I am considering for the Paladin i'm going to be playing if it helps (rolls are done and I did very very well!) Any comments are welcome.
Str: 19 (20)
Dex: 16 (17)
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 16
Feat Progression
H: Improved Shield Bash
1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Double Slice
5: Weapon Focus
7: Shield Slam
9: Improved TWF
11: Shield Master
Here's the build I am considering for the Paladin i'm going to be playing if it helps (rolls are done and I did very very well!) Any comments are welcome.
Str: 19 (20)
Dex: 16 (17)
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 16Feat Progression
H: Improved Shield Bash
1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Double Slice
5: Weapon Focus
7: Shield Slam
9: Improved TWF
11: Shield Master
I'm still of the opinion that Power Attack is necessary here. You just won't pose much threat to anything at all unless you are smiting it. And if you don't pose any threat, then enemies won't attack you and you lose your primary role as a tank.
Lets look and see:
11th level, with all masterwork but no magic gear for simplicity sake. I'll assume weapon focus longsword, as thats a common choice, and a light spiked shield to prevent taking the extra -2 to your primary attack with TWF.
You will attack with a longswrod at +16/+11/+6 (+11 BAB +5 Str +1 Weapon Focus +1 Mwk -2 TWF) and with the shield at +17/+12 (+11 BAB +5 Str +1 Shield Master). Damage with the longsword will be 1d8+5/19-20 and damage with the shield will be 1d4+6 (+5 Str +1 Shield Master).
Thats just not enough damage at 11th level to do anything, at least for a melee oriented character. Even adding bonuses for more Strength and magic weapon enhancements doesn't add up to a whole lot more. Say adding +5 to attack and damage with both sword and shield. Even then its still an average damage of 14.5 with the sword and 13.5 with the shield. Your attacks will be solid, but thats just not enough damage to pose much threat to most things, especially if theres DR you can't overcome. Smiting of course changes all that, but you can only smite so many things.
Personally I'd suggest the following feat selections.
H Improved Shield Bash
1 Two Weapon Fighting
3 Power Attack
5 Improved Bull Rush
7 Shield Slam
9 Greater Bull Rush
11 Shield Master
(13 Improved Two Weapon Fighting or Cleave)
This gives power attack for much needed damage boosts when those are called for, and greatly improves your shield slam ability. With this, when you successfully shield slam your opponents movement will provoke attacks of opportunities from your allies (but not you). You lose the second off-hand attack (for the time being), but thats probably worth it for the greater bull rush. Without the greater bull rush, shield slamming just isn't that attractive.
Thats just my opinion though.
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Yes. There is a difference between an innkeeper who charges ten times the normal price when Adventures walk in (because they are always trouble and can afford it, he says) and the Devourer of All Souls that the party is chasing after.
Both are evil. However, one deserves death, while the other just needs a lesson. Killing anything and everything that registers as evil is a quick way to lose your paladin status.
Mercy is perhaps a paladin's most important virtue, and Guilt is a perfectly valid weapon in Good's arsenal.
But you got to think of it this way, this isn't world of warcraft and its hard to 'taunt' the person to attack you. There is no right or wrong way to be a tank, either the target is going to attack you or he isn't, all you can do is make sure your taking most of the damage, however on the otherside of the coin you can take the two handed weapon approach>
Str: 19 (20)
Dex: 13
Con: 16
Int: 16
Wis: 7
Cha:17 (18)(19)
Now just because I like the Halbred doesn't mean everyone does, but it allows you to brace yourself against a charge, and trip, this also incorperates sunder, trip and Disarm, leaving you with a wide arrange of combat moves to perform to bring even the toughest fighter to his knees. Its a fun spec
Justice Bringer
H: Power Attack
1: Improved Sunder
3: Combat Expertise
5: Improved Trip
7: Improved Disarm
9: Greater Trip
11: Greater Sunder
13: Greater Disarm
15: Improved Initiative/Weapon Focus
power attack. that's pretty much all you need, which is nice. use the other feats to make your character have more options. lunge, step up, etc.what about feats like cleave / great cleave or bull rush and greater bull rush?
With a two-hander? Cleave/Great Cleave typically is the more commonly picked choice.
power attack. that's pretty much all you need, which is nice. use the other feats to make your character have more options. lunge, step up, etc.what about feats like cleave / great cleave or bull rush and greater bull rush?
I think his point is that if you are going the two handed weapon route, then aside from Power Attack, you don't really NEED any other feats. You're choices are pretty wide open.
So say you are looking at getting the mount instead of the divine bond. You could squeeze in a few mounted combat feats then. Or you could go for weapon feats like weapon focus and improved crit. Or defensive feats like toughness or dodge. Or even extra lay on hands or turn undead. Or you could go for combat maneuver things too like the bull rush or sunder feats. Cleave and Great cleave are good choices too, as is lunge and step up. Or possibly the vital strike feats.
Its pretty a pretty open field for you.
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Power Attack is a must for a two hander. Never been that big of a fan of the Cleave/Great Cleave feats for non-Fighters because they're so situational and everyone else has a limited feat selection.
I'm not a fan of Bull Rush for most classes. If you'd like a combat maneuver from the Power Attack tree, I'd take Overrun. Knocking someone prone is a great debuff for you and your melee buddies. With Greater Overrun they'll provoke AoO's for falling down and for getting back up.
Step Up is a great feat. Really causes problems against enemy archers and casters.
When you're using a two-handed weapon I'm a pretty big fan of a Divine Bond with your weapon. Adding enchantment yourself to the weapon lets you spend money otherwise spent on your sword to some AC buffing magical items/armor so you can still weather the worst that your opponents throw at you.
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I'm not a fan of Bull Rush for most classes. If you'd like a combat maneuver from the Power Attack tree, I'd take Overrun. Knocking someone prone is a great debuff for you and your melee buddies. With Greater Overrun they'll provoke AoO's for falling down and for getting back up.
Step Up is a great feat. Really causes problems against enemy archers and casters.
at you.
Thanks I took a look at Improved Overrun/Greater Overrun looks nice
and step up looks like it would be handy quite often
Step up is amazing. Considering your huge saves, you may be a threat to any spellcaster in the general vicinity.
Remember them hands of yours are a swift action on yourself, a standard on others (I believe). That sweet, sweet healing will make you one tough cookie, I guarantee.
Holy weapon. It is amazing and you want it now.
The mount can get scary, especially if you are dirty and pick a camel. Command it to spit every round, it sickens for 1d4 rounds on a touch.
But Combat Reflexes and Stand Still have much greater use for a reach weapon fighter than a shield fighter
PRPG Stand Still only can apply to adjacent Squares, regardless of what weapon/ threat range you have.
Change from 3.5.Regarding the advice to carry an extra light weapon... I feel it's less crucial than in 3.5, now that 1-Handed weapons are just as usable in a Grapple as Light Weapons. That said, a Dagger in your boot/belt is pretty realistic image, so why not...
Dazzling Display, etc... I think should be left to Bards, or Fighters with Feats to spare.
(though if it really goes with your concept, say if you follow Sarenrae or something, go for it...)
Weapon Bond vs. Holy Mount... I say is up to you.
Both have great aspects, Weapon Bond helping your damage output even when not Smiting,
Holy Mount in combo with a good Ride Skill and some Feats letting you get off more Full Attacks, more powerful Charges, and make up for movement penalties from Armor (though you might want Skill Focus: Ride to keep your Mount out of harm's way if you prefer Adamantine to Mithril Armor...)
If you don't have the dex for it TWF is a non starter.
Then I think you have to use Power Attack etc....
Step up looks like a very cool feat.
Sigurd
do you think dazzling display > Shatter Defenses is useful?
These could be quite potent considering your Charisma score, plus you could add in Intimidating Prowess as well. Do note that you cannot qualify for the final feat in the chain (Deadly Stroke) - it requires Greater Weapon Focus.
Coming from the "you only need Power Attack" idea, if you have 13 Dex you could pick up Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot so you'd have a decent ranged assault when you need it (Dragon flying overhead, avoiding your smiteful sword swings).
Vital Strike and Cleave will both give you excellent options when you take a move and a standard action attack.
Nothing says Tank like Greater Bull Rush as well.
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These could be quite potent considering your Charisma score, plus you could add in Intimidating Prowess as well. Do note that you cannot qualify for the final feat in the chain (Deadly Stroke) - it requires Greater Weapon Focus.
It's true that you can fire off a pretty nasty intimidate. Since the Paladin is fairly feat starved, though, you'll need to decide between this and a combat maneuver like Overrun. The Paladin also has little in the way of skills so you'll be dumping a lot into Intimidate (and probably using the Bully trait to make it a class skill) if you want to be good at it as you progress.
Coming from the "you only need Power Attack" idea, if you have 13 Dex you could pick up Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot so you'd have a decent ranged assault when you need it (Dragon flying overhead, avoiding your smiteful sword swings).
Too many feats for a bit of flexibility. You should have a composite bow because it doesn't hurt to carry but by the time flying enemies is a mjor concern you should be able to pick up Winged Boots or get Fly cast on you by your friendly neighborhood caster.
Vital Strike and Cleave will both give you excellent options when you take a move and a standard action attack.
Both of these are good feats. Cleave, in my opinion, is just situational enough that I dislike it for those that don't get bonus feats. However, it has also been my experience that parties die more often from a bumrush of a couple dozen weaker enemies than a single BBEG. That's a situation where Smite is practically useless, though a mount or weapon bond will come in handy. I'd absolutely take Vital Strike with your lvl 7 feat. See if you can cram Cleave in but don't kill yourself over it.
Nothing says Tank like Greater Bull Rush as well.
Unless its Overrun. Yes, Bull Rush can get a pest away from a caster or something but knocking them over is a buff for you and a debuff for them, essentially. You won't get any opportunity attacks out of Bull Rush until you can get the improved version at lvl 9 (assuming Vital Strike at Level 7). Standing up always provokes opportunity attacks unless the enemy can tumble away.