I count 45 bonus feats by 20th level. That seems like a little bit much.
I don't know that I could even find 45 feats to take, unless I scoured every 3.5 book I could get my hands on. And even then, I'm not sure.
Okay, you are right. There are a lot of Combat Feats, but let's take a look at their requirements.
In order to take every combat feat, your stats have to be (at minimum) Str 13 Dex 19 Con X Int 13 Wis 13 Cha X, where X can be any number as there are no combat feats requiring those stats. This fighter must also take seven levels of an arcane class to make use of the arcane armor and arcane strike feats. This also lets him make use of the otherwise useless Defensive Combat Training feat, as a straight class fighter already applies his full hit dice as his BAB. Another of the feats is outright wasted, as the fighter already has proficiency in the tower shield.
Just a quick glance through the list, I found 3 that require arcane casting (up to 7th level), a whopping 24 with Dex requirements (between 13 and 19), 7 with intelligence requirements (13), 10 with strength requirements (13), 1 with a wisdom requirement (13), 6 that require a skill investment (ride), and 1 that was entirely useless (tower shield proficiency). This means that there are really only about 50 feats that every fighter can take plus two or three of those feat trees, due to not meeting requirements. I'm often hard pressed to find 21-22 feats I want and qualify for over the 20 levels I might build a fighter. I don't want a fighter who sunders and disarms. Unless I've taken rogue levels, improved feint is just an occasional bonus to attack. I can get that constantly with other feats. If I am playing a dungeon crawl and don't want to be a halfling or gnome, those mounted feats are pretty well useless. Do you see where I am going with this?
Even if I get my 45 feats and iterative attacks and nifty class features and talents, you still have to deal with the fact that fighters can't match the versatility of spell casters in this system. Maybe they can match spontaneous casters, who have a set spells known list (similar to a set feat list), but a wizard can, on a whim, change his "spells known" list (that is, his spellbook) with the expenditure of some cash or the dropping of some loot. Clerics are even worse. They don't even have to bother with finding gold or waiting for loot drops, they already know every spell. This would be akin to there only being level/alignment prerequisites on every combat feat, the fighter can choose any of them he wants and change them all for something else tomorrow.
This doesn't even take into account the fact that (even with you talents) fighters basically just do damage. High level critters have a lot of hit points. It takes some time to slice those away. A caster can, with a single spell, kill (potentially) any creature except the terrasque. For combat control, a single fighter can grapple one creature. A wizard can grapple everyone in a 20-foot radius with the 4th level spell black tentacles. The wizard can also turn people into dragons or giants or elementals. She can teleport across the planet and between planes. She can speed up herself so much that time seems to stand still. She can alter the fabric of reality with a few words and a sack of coins. You can just hit stuff. You may be very good at hitting stuff, but hitting stuff is all you do.
I like what you are trying to do, honestly, but the only way to assure balance between casters and non-casters is to go the way of 4e and make everyone run off the same mechanics. Or attempt a Tome of Battle and start using maneuvers and stances. Or, do like we do at my table, don't play casters like jerks. Ultimately, my wizard and my friend's fighter (or vice versa) are friends, just as my friend and I are friends. Neither I nor my wizard are there to upstage my friend or his fighter. If that means not preparing the uber spells, so be it. If that means that Fighter McStabby recognizes that he saved my ass back when I had two spell slots and a crossbow I couldn't hit with and now it's my turn to return the favor, so be it. I've honestly never seen the huge disparity that the forums would lead you to believe. That or the disparity isn't as big an issue as people want it to be.
Another thing you have to keep in mind is that, with this redesign of the fighter (who was already the king of martial combat) the paladin, ranger, rogue and barbarian would need complete redesigns too, in order to bring them back to their respective places. You might even need to redo the bard, as martial combat is part of her schtick too.
The Pathfinder Fighter is already more capable than the Wizard in his area of expertise. You cannot deal as much damage in a round with a Wizard as you can with a Fighter. EDIT: To a single target.
The problem with Fighters is that they do not have any role aside from dealing damage. Adding extra combat feats really does nothing to solve that problem.
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The problem with Fighters is that they do not have any role aside from dealing damage. Adding extra combat feats really does nothing to solve that problem.
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This is another 'give them bigger numbers' fix, which has been done quite a lot. The problem with 'moar feats!' is that feats mostly only give you '+1 to X', instead of 'do Y'. No matter how big his bonus to X is, if it is all he can do he is boring.
It won't give them a lot of options other than damage (though I can think of a few), and it will give them a lot of different options while dealing damage.
That's the point. Fighters don't really NEED to get any better at dealing damage. They're already the best class for that, against a generic enemy (Paladins beat them out against specific enemies, and Rangers might beat them against a highly favored foe). They need options other than "I deal damage".
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Interesting, Not the Quarters I would have chosen, but interesting.
the Talents are an interesting take, I think I like them.
But I think they need more talents which give them the flexibility to pull off some of the things which other classes can.
I think that the combat feats get too high to keep track of well.
Suggestions: Have a Pool of Daily Reassignable Feats to give the fighter some strong flexibility options.
Suggestion the 2nd, have Feats Double in their effect at level 10.
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I think that the combat feats get too high to keep track of well.
Suggestions: Have a Pool of Daily Reassignable Feats to give the fighter some strong flexibility options.
I had actually thought to make a Fighter's bonus feats change based on the weapon he was wielding at the time, up to a number of weapons equal to half his fighter level.
For instance, a 4th level fighter normally has 2 General feats (3 if human) and 3 bonus fighter feats. He picks Improved Initiative and Blind Fight for his general feats, and may choose two (4/2=2) specific weapon configurations to focus on, in this case Longsword/Heavy Shield and Shortbow. While in sword and board mode, he gains the benefit of Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting, and Shield Focus. When wielding the shortbow, those feats are replaced with Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Rapid Shot.
At 6th level, he has gained an additional general feat, fighter feat, and his level is high enough to choose another weapon configuration, Lance. His feats are now:
General Feats (always active): Improved Initiative, Blind Fight, Disruptive
Longsword/Heavy Shield: Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting, Shield Focus, Shield Slam
Shortbow: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Shortbow)
Lance: Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample
And so on. It would allow the Fighter to select the best weapon for the job, and be equally proficient.
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I had actually thought to make a Fighter's bonus feats change based on the weapon he was wielding at the time, up to a number of weapons equal to half his fighter level.For instance, a 4th level fighter normally has 2 General feats (3 if human) and 3 bonus fighter feats. He picks Improved Initiative and Blind Fight for his general feats, and may choose two (4/2=2) specific weapon configurations to focus on, in this case Longsword/Heavy Shield and Shortbow. While in sword and board mode, he gains the benefit of Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting, and Shield Focus. When wielding the shortbow, those feats are replaced with Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, and Rapid Shot.
At 6th level, he has gained an additional general feat, fighter feat, and his level is high enough to choose another weapon configuration, Lance. His feats are now:
General Feats (always active): Improved Initiative, Blind Fight, Disruptive
Longsword/Heavy Shield: Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting, Shield Focus, Shield Slam
Shortbow: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Shortbow)
Lance: Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, TrampleAnd so on. It would allow the Fighter to select the best weapon for the job, and be equally proficient.
This is actually less flexible not more.
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This is actually less flexible not more.
Care to elaborate?
Yes the fighter would have a set number of weapon chains, but he can switch weapons on the fly.Your fighter wakes up in the morning and asks himself what weapons is he going to be good at that day. If he expects melee, 'preps' Power Attack, the Spring Attack chain, or the TWF depending on what he expects to face. If he ends up fighting a flying dragon that day, he's SOL.
I gave 'em talents at every odd level. Things like Weapon Training and Armor Training become talent options; others have more varied effects (estimating an opponents' combat abilities, shrugging off fatigue, etc.). Starting at 11th level, they can get Advanced Talents that let 'em do more interesting stuff (anticipate blinking enemies' arrivals, increase their threat range, etc.). This, along with 4 skill points/level and all 3 good saves, makes the fighter a verstile, extremely valuable class all the way up into high levels.
I gave 'em talents at every odd level. Things like Weapon Training and Armor Training become talent options; others have more varied effects (estimating an opponents' combat abilities, shrugging off fatigue, etc.). Starting at 11th level, they can get Advanced Talents that let 'em do more interesting stuff (anticipate blinking enemies' arrivals, increase their threat range, etc.). This, along with 4 skill points/level and all 3 good saves, makes the fighter a verstile, extremely valuable class all the way up into high levels.
Fighter Levels! Wizard Levels! By their powers combined, I am....oh, wait, I hate that cartoon.
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My 2 domars on this one...
I think part of the problem is that the approach is wrong. Linear vs. quadratic is and isn't the problem. Fighters don't really need 45 feats that are all variations of the same theme, or those which merely increase raw damage output. Full casters improve exponentially due to versatility combined with increase damage output and effect due to SPELLS.
So giving a fighter an extra attack with his foot, or super-duper TWF isn't really the solution. Fighters need a few improvements:
A few more skill points for starters wouldn't hurt. Maybe 4 per level vs 2. What do fighters do outside of combat - lead, plan, control the situation. Fighters –before pallys or clerics are natural leaders. The rules do not reflect this.
They should probably have Diplomacy and either Knowledge (local) and or (History) as class skills. Assuming that the fighter was trained at an actual academy and not some back woods fighter. Maybe an either or on the last two skills depending on his background.
The other part of the problem – Fighters and most martial class abilities in D&D exist in a vacuum.
Rogues have the ability to defeat magical traps, rangers get bonuses vs. a variety of fantasy world beasties, pallys get a bonus to kill evil. Evil.
Fighters get-bupkis.
Much like the rogues excellent talent abilities fighters should also have access to a set of talents which reflect a little better that they live in a world where they are the front line against Dragons, Demons and evil wizards. They don't. The solution to an optimized fighter is a one-way path down a street of set feats. Don't get me wrong, I love the feats, and even feat chains, but it still doesn't help the fighter deal with what he has to.
Fighters (and barbs, and rangers) need abilities where they have an extra chance to shake off/reduce save or die, or be frozen, or trapped or whatever. Bypass prismatic barriers (at a check of some kind tied to a talent/training).
They need abilities at low level that may get them a few attacks to bypass DR requirements, melee or ranged attacks to screw up casters (and casting) feats or abilities that let them handle rampaging golems or undead without just counting on additional damage. In other words sort of an anti-caster approach to talents and abilities. Nothing that would shut down casters 100%, but a set of abilities which reflect the world in which these heroes live in.
If you make some of these abilities feats (like a Disrupting Shot -target must make caster check to maintain any transmutaion effects he has cast on his person or effect is suppressed for 2 rounds), all of a sudden you can get rogues, pallys, barbs and rangers dipping into these pool of abilities.
Anyway, that’s my take – it was very general so I hope you got the gist of what I was trying to get across. I wouldn't like to think that any of the general ideas were magical abilities unto themselves -just training to deal with real world (er...) threats.
I say give him that many feats as a feat pool, but still limit him to the normal amount of feats he can train in each day.
Basically, at 20th, he'd have 10 feats, like the normal fighter, but can pick and choose which feats he wants out of a pool of 40 or so.
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Then, to give more options outside of just combat, add the following feats as chooseable for that pool:
Skill Focus (any fighter class skill)
Endurance
Diehard
Fleet
Run
Any +2/+2 feat that has a fighter skill included
Toughness
Master Craftsman
Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Finally, add a few more skills to the Fighter's skill set (Perception, Sense Motive, Knowledge (nobility), and increase his skills to 4 + Int.
There. A Fighter than has something mechanically viable outside of combat. And able to respond to combat requirements better.
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This is actually less flexible not more.Care to elaborate?
Pardon Me, my initial response was unclear, partially due to post monster problems.
Weapon Chains are pretty cool of an idea, unless you end up with a sub-optimized chain. Or if a chain overlaps with existing Feats (what happens then?).
Feats, as was stated earlier, don't scale, and don't normally stack with themselves.
So a set of options which may or may not overlap is less then awesome. and can restrain options when it comes to what feats people actually choose.
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Also, I'm agreeing with the general vibe that the problem with fighters isn't how badass they are in combat in terms of DPR, It's a problem of flexability and other type options.
What kind of puzzles me about the notion behind this whole thread is that the fighter, alone among all the classes, is somehow vastly inferior to spellcasters. I certainly agree that they trade away a lot of versatility in order to deal lots of damage without any per-day limits on their abilities, but I don't think it necessarily follows that they're hugely underpowered. What they are is focused, moreso than any other core class, and people who choose to play fighters are *aware* of that when they make the decision.
If you want to be a more versatile fighter-type character, play a paladin, ranger, or barbarian. Or dip some rogue levels. It makes no sense to throw dozens of extra feats at the fighter, as though he's the victim of a big conspiracy to keep him down - he's already got the best single target DPR-to-AC ratio in the entire game by a substantial margin, which he can produce without limit (and no, I'm not inviting a debate on the topic).
If you give the fighter a dozen extra feats, you have to address why all the other classes that the fighter is even loosely proximate in power to *don't* get those feats. If you give the fighter non-feat abilities that make him more dangerous or versatile, you have to justify making the other combat classes obsolete. I honestly don't see how you can do either.
Wow, this seems like a pretty useful resource. Can I add it to my Dramatically Rewritten Fighter Thread?