let's say tenth level half orc rogue wielding a falchion is flanking an enemy. rogue has minor magic (acid splash) and took quicken spell like ability as tenth level talent.
rogue does full attack, all falchion strikes count as sneak attacks. if she also casts quickened acid splash, would that count as sneak attack?
As long as the target does not have improved uncanny dodge, it will count, but I think the rogue opens up an attack of opportunity on herself if she is able to even cast acid splash, because the quicken spell feat requires you to use 4 higher slots for the spell you are casting.
Unless they're using the feat Sudden Quicken from Complete Arcana. In that case yes, you could cast it in that same round and it would get the Sneak Attack damage as acid splash is a ranged touch attack that deals damage.
Do look out for the AoO though, casting defensively would probably be tricky for the rogue.
Touchy!
I would say no as a ranged attack cannot cause, or benefit from, flanking.
Touchy!
I would say no as a ranged attack cannot cause, or benefit from, flanking.
This is correct as I understand it. It would work with a Range: Touch quickened spell though.
Or if they're...you know....flat footed.
This is correct as I understand it. It would work with a Range: Touch quickened spell though.Touchy!
I would say no as a ranged attack cannot cause, or benefit from, flanking.
If it's a range, it cannot benefit from flanking right? If you had other conditional modifiers that granted sneak attack (flat-footed, etc.) then you could get it from this spell, or a melee touch attack, but not from a ranged touch attack. Even using a ranged touch attack in melee.
Not a ranged touch attack, he said "Range: Touch"... so just an actual touch attack.
"Range:" being the entry in the spell description for what range it has. You know.. personal, touch, close, medium, long, etc.
the quicken spell-like ability feat from the beastiary does work, it is even pathfinder core ;)
anyway, yes you need to catch your opponent flatfooted, greater feint might help with that though, can even get a normal sneak attack in.
swift spells do not provoke attack of opportunity, technically it is a ranged attack I suppose, but I dont think it is supposed to.
Not a ranged touch attack, he said "Range: Touch"... so just an actual touch attack.
"Range:" being the entry in the spell description for what range it has. You know.. personal, touch, close, medium, long, etc.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry if I confused things.
the quicken spell-like ability feat from the beastiary does work, it is even pathfinder core ;)
anyway, yes you need to catch your opponent flatfooted, greater feint might help with that though, can even get a normal sneak attack in.
swift spells do not provoke attack of opportunity, technically it is a ranged attack I suppose, but I dont think it is supposed to.
Doesn't it evoke an AoO from being a ranged attack or is that only with ranged weapons?
Flanking works with all melee attacks only. p. 197 CRB
This would include melee touch attacks such as shocking grasp but not ranged touch attacks such as acid splash.
A rogue's attacks will do extra sneak attack damage if the rogue is flanking the target or if the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC against the rogue's attack. Note the very fine distinction between "flat-footed" and "denied Dexterity to AC." A creature can be flat-footed but not denied its dex bonus to AC, such as a barbarian with uncanny dodge. A creature can be denied its Dexterity bonus for a number of other reasons aside from just being flat-footed: being paralyzed, helpless, stunned, running without the run feat, balancing with the Acrobatics skill, climbing (unless the target has a climb speed), cowering, unable to see the attacker (unless the target has uncanny dodge or blind-fight), pinned in a grapple, and probably a few more I haven't thought of. If the target is denied its dex bonus to AC, then any of the rogues attacks that do damage will do sneak attack damage so long as the target is within 30' of the rogue. This would include damage from spells that require attack rolls, such as vampiric touch, scorching ray, and even Enervation and the Poison spell (but not spells that impose a penalty instead of doing damage such as Ray of Enfeeblement). Also, splash weapons such as an acid flask cannot be used to deal sneak attack damage. p. 202 CRB.
Doesn't it evoke an AoO from being a ranged attack or is that only with ranged weapons?the quicken spell-like ability feat from the beastiary does work, it is even pathfinder core ;)
anyway, yes you need to catch your opponent flatfooted, greater feint might help with that though, can even get a normal sneak attack in.
swift spells do not provoke attack of opportunity, technically it is a ranged attack I suppose, but I dont think it is supposed to.
Yes, it provokes, even when quickened. Which is silly. But true.
I thought sneak attack spells weren't allowed for rogues. That's why Arcane Tricksters get the ability to sneak attack with spells at, I think, 10th level. Why would they have this if rogues already did?
Not exactly. The ability Arcane Trixters get at 10 allows sneakattack dice with any spell that deals damage as long as the target is flatfooted. Think of an invisible AT casting fireball into a crowd of enemies. Ouch.
Any rogue can sneak attack with damage dealing spells that require an attack roll.
Doesn't it evoke an AoO from being a ranged attack or is that only with ranged weapons?Yes, it provokes, even when quickened. Which is silly. But true.No, no, no. According to the Quicken Spell metamagic feat you dont provoke AoO from Quickened spells. I'll assume that quickened spell-like abilities work the exact same way.
Yes, yes, yes. While I agree with you that they shouldn't, I'm afraid you're wrong about that. In PF all ranged attacks provoke, no matter what their source.
From Email exchange with Paizo:
Question: The Pathfinder ruleset very clearly states that making a Ranged Touch Attack triggers an Attack of Opportunity even if the spell that grants the attack is successfully cast defensively. Does the same apply if the spell is Quickened?
Answer: The Quicken Spell feat changes the casting time, but has no other effect on the casting of the spell.
Hope that helps,
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Again, I think it's silly that a spell can be cast so quickly that an opponent can't react to it, but that part of the spell, the targeting, can still trigger an AoO. But that's the rule.
if she also casts quickened acid splash, would that count as sneak attack?
No, as acid splash is a ranged touch spell. Ranged weapons do not threaten any squares, thus do not flank. No flank = no sneak attack.
Also: Quickening it makes it a swift action that does not provoke AoO, as it specifically states in both the Quicken Spell and Quicken Spell-like Ability feats.
@angry: Last month.
if she also casts quickened acid splash, would that count as sneak attack?No, as acid splash is a ranged touch spell. Ranged weapons do not threaten any squares, thus do not flank. No flank = no sneak attack.
Also: Quickening it makes it a swift action that does not provoke AoO, as it specifically states in both the Quicken Spell and Quicken Spell-like Ability feats.
Casting doesn't provoke. Making a ranged attack does. Always.
Hey, I don't like it either, so I house ruled it. But it's still a house rule. Officially, any ranged attack, no matter what the source, even a quickened spell, provokes.
FWIW, Quicken's non-provocation clause isn't wasted if the opponent has Combat Reflexes. Normally, a ranged touch spell provokes twice.
Well, I've never agreed with ranged touch attacks provoking at all.
But what the rules seem to be indicating is that the targeting of the spell takes the same amount of time whether the spell is quickened or not. It's the casting of the spell that is shortened. Instead of mumble, mumble, mumble point, it's mum-point. Which I can live with.
Originally, I house ruled that quickened doesn't provoke. It makes things move a little smoother in my opinion, but I may go back to the RAW for a few sessions to see how things go. Getting two spells off in the same round is a pretty big benefit, so risking an AoO may be an appropriate limitation.
The two AoO situation is one of the reasons I don't like the ranged touch attack provokes rule. In 3.5 I played that a concentration check avoided an AoO, which was one roll, then maybe a second if the concentration check failed. With the new rules you need con check, optional AoO, then mandatory AoO. Not a big slow down, but every little bit hurts.