If 0-level spells can now be cast At-Will, then why is Create Water still 0-level? I think it should now be delegated as a 1st-level spell. Because if even a simple 1st-level Adept can create water at will, no one will ever go thirsty and all desert-like environments just need to train a few adepts to create water all day.
Anyone else think this change is necessary for the Create Water spell?
Even if it does disappear in one hour, it's still a 0-lvl spell, so you can spam it how much you like. No one will ever be thirsty.
|
I have not yet encountered a situation where, as a DM, I've declared, "Curses! Those PCs have foiled me again with their ability to produce water from thin air!"
From a world-designing perspective, sure, making the spell an at-will ability solves alot of problems for creatures who will no longer need to rely on Survival checks to dowse for water, but it has opened the spell up to all sorts of other practical uses and I haven't found any of them to be game-breaking.
I actually agree. In my games, I always get rid of infinite anything, including decanters of endless water and unlimited ration bags.
Then again, I also get rid of bags of holding. I feel that most of these things would ruin a "normal" fantasy style economy.
Also, the more "answers" that exist, the fewer "problems" for a GM to form a plot around.
GM: There's a drought! You have to melt the northern glacier in order to restore the ecology!
PCs: Or we can go the Westville and hire a few acolytes to head over and take care of the water shortage.
Northern Guardian: *waiting* .... Where IS everybody?
I just wanted to point out that adepts can't cast it at will, although 1st level clerics and druids can.
I don't really see any big issues with infinite water.
When it comes to divine magic you can always say that the god doesn't like the way that the priest is using a spell and denies it to them. Technically a cleric is a conduit for someone/thing else’s power and so can't just toss spells around without thinking about their god's goals and desires--which allows a GM through role playing (instead of rules) to control things of this nature.
I feel that most of these things would ruin a "normal" fantasy style economy.
You know what else does that? Dragons. Citing LotR.
Never mind that bags of holding or decanters of endless water don't generate wealth (unless your PCs have decided to corner the market on providing water like some sort of fantasy Sicilian mafia)Also, the more "answers" that exist, the fewer "problems" for a GM to form a plot around.
GM: There's a drought! You have to melt the northern glacier in order to restore the ecology!
PCs: Or we can go the Westville and hire a few acolytes to head over and take care of the water shortage.
Northern Guardian: *waiting* .... Where IS everybody?
I am getting the impression that the "problems" with your "epic" campaigns arn't "basic magic solves basic problems." Sure, I can make up a story line where some epic level sorcerer king wants the 3rd level PCs to clean his castle to the point he could eat off the floor in 48 hours or he will destroy an entire village and then set limits on what Prestidigitation can do. Or I can make a challenge for the PCs that can't be foiled by a the n00bs in the Wizard's tower.
While druids and clerics can cast it at will, most gods will be a bit upset if a cleric spent 8 hours a days asking "Oh mighty one grant me water." Every 10 seconds or so
After a while even the best gods are gonna be like "Ya know what, fine! none for you" And then your doing atonement
You know what I envision? Medium to large communities having a lamplighter's guild.
Take some apprentices or first level wiz/sor guys, give them a handful of coppers to roam around at night casting Light on lampposts.
I suspect that might be cheaper than continual flame, at a practical level.
Heck, if there is a feat or possibility of having some commoner with ONLY Light, mending, or some other handy cantrip, I'd imagine hordes of 'em doing magic scut work.
You know what I envision? Medium to large communities having a lamplighter's guild.
Take some apprentices or first level wiz/sor guys, give them a handful of coppers to roam around at night casting Light on lampposts.
I suspect that might be cheaper than continual flame, at a practical level.
Heck, if there is a feat or possibility of having some commoner with ONLY Light, mending, or some other handy cantrip, I'd imagine hordes of 'em doing magic scut work.
Sounds like Eberron. There have been some interesting articles in Dragon (and probably other gaming mags) about the implications of magic (even cantrips and orisons) for a society.
With animate object cast on a cart or rowboat and made permanent with permanency, you have a magical car or motorboat (albeit one that only high-level adventurers or very wealthy consumers would have access to).
With a decanter of endless water lashed to anything buoyant enough to hold afloat a person, you have a magical seadoo. (A player in my group once did this after the galley the party had been crossing the ocean on was capsized by a dragon turtle, lashing his DoEW to a large piece of driftwood and activating the geyser, and riding home with little effort.)
Permanent illusions might provide something analogous to TV in the homes of the wealthy (although one would probably quickly tire of watching the same "show" over and over again).
I don't know why everyone gets so worked up about the spell Create Water. A decanted of endless water can pump out 432,000 gallons of water each day at the highest setting. After some brief googling, wikipedia tells me New York City consumed about 1.086 billion gallons of water per person in 2006. With a population of about 19 million, this comes out to 56 gallons per person per day. This is probably a high consumption rate for a ye olde fantasy setting, but even by these stats a single decanter can support a town of 7714 people. Realistically more considering all settlements will have some other source of water, unless said settlement was founded in the middle of the desert (in which case the decanter will give you water, but food will still be a problem). What's more water from a Decanter does not vanish, allowing you to store what you don't use during times of low consumption.
A decanter can be crafted by a ninth level cleric, which may or may not be rare depending on your setting. A better question however, is why more settings don't have at least one of these decanters supplying water, public or private, in every town of appreciable size. 129 decanters can supply the water for a city of 1 million people. I don't know if Pathfinder released any demographic guidelines, but my 3.0 DMG has a 100k gp limit for a single item for a metropolis which is defined as 25,000 people or more (which can easily afford the 4 Decanters necessary). 129 decanters at market price is 1,161,000 gp, which is pretty steep but should be within the range of a tax base for a city of 1 million. And this is assuming your benevolent god-king simply ups and buys them all, rather than the Decanters being crafted by independent spellcasters looking to make a profit.
But whatever, the 3.0 DMG isn't really relevant. Point still stands that it's a fixed investment for literally infinite return on a commodity where demand isn't likely to fall off steeply barring things like mass depopulation. Competition should have driven the price of water to nothing in large cities as churches literally give the stuff away as part of their outreach.
Edit: oops, just noticed a decanter has a caster level of 9.
Hmm, that does change things. Only a metropolis would have one of these now. 16k is a big downgrade from 100k.
As soon as Jason added the "if not used within" to the spell it was fixed...
It allows parties to cross vast deserts without having a wagon of water with them.
It would allow toilets...a stone that when dry casts create water.
To each their own, if you want low magic games, by all means make it a 1st level spell...hell make it a 5th level spell, it's your game! Make fireball a 9th level spell and Excalibur was a +1 sword...
Hmm, that does change things. Only a metropolis would have one of these now. 16k is a big downgrade from 100k.
From the link:
That's the max value of the 3d4 major items...not everything together.
Again, emphasis mine.
Good call, I spoke under fast research assumptions (at work don'tcha know)
So I actually built a town in the desert using a DoEW. the founder of the town was a retired adventurer who wanted a good remote strong hold, built from the top of a mountain and expanded down. Minas Tirith style just much smaller with terraced farms near the higher levels. Two seperate irrigation channels ran all the way down. one for fresh drinking and one for sanitation. citizens still had to carry water from and waste to but it seemed more efficient than a trip to a few centralized "springs". I'm surprised that I haven't seen this more.
I think this might be the oldest necro posting I've seen. Over 5 years, good job.
I didn't check dates it was near the top.
That's an oddly appropriate avatar Einherjr for such a mighty feat of necromancy!