The whole point of PrC design is so that multiple classes/options can take them, if focussed enough. Blatantly saying "2 levels of bard" is atrocious game design.
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The whole point of PrC design is so that multiple classes/options can take them, if focussed enough. Blatantly saying "2 levels of bard" is atrocious game design.
That's why I setup my version the way I did. My idea was 4 fighter, 2 wizard, but it can be setup any number of ways, and I think it'll make for some different and fun bladesingers.
I wrote this about a month ago. My basic idea is that they have 2 "songs", bladesong, and spellsong. So all the abilities are based on those two concepts (pure fluff).
EDIT: It seems the formatting didn't quite make it. As for balance, in the end it's a bit powerful, but nothing too broken outright. But add in 3.5 stuff, and who knows? Also, after writing the class, I discovered Item Familiars in 3.5 Unearthed Arcana, which is pretty much what I wanted to do, so using those rules might be better. I tried to make the fun and cool abilities sooner than 3.5 since that version sucked, and it was a pain to wait for all the fun stuff.
The table won't edit, so hopefully it's readable
Bladesinger prestige class for Pathfinder engine.
Hit Dice: d10
Requirements
Race: Elf or half-elf.
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Acrobatics 3, Concentration 3, Knowledge (arcana) 2, Spellcraft 2, Perform (dance) 1 or Perform (song) 1.
Feats: Weapon Finesse (of appropriate weapon), Combat Casting, Combat Expertise
Spells: Able to cast arcane spells of level 1.Class Skills
Acrobatics, Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Perception, Spellcraft, and Stealth.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + INT modifier.Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficicency: Bladesingers gain no proficiency with any weapon. They gain proficency in light armor.
Spells per day: At every even-numbered level gained in the bladesinger class (2, 4, 6, 8, 10), the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in an arcane casting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a bladesinger, she must decide to which class she adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
Bladesinger Oath: A bladesinger must dedicate herself to one specific weapon. This...
So, the Long sword cannot be used with this Bladesinger ? That seems a bit odd, as the 2E fluff as well as the 3.0 and 3.5 allowed it.
The whole point of PrC design is so that multiple classes/options can take them, if focussed enough. Blatantly saying "2 levels of bard" is atrocious game design.
I completely disagree with you, as the Dragon Disciple requires that you must cast spells as a spontaneous Arcane Caster...that leaves 2 classes...Bard and Sorcerer...and really, Bard is major sub-optimal for Dragon Disciple. It was designed for the Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer, as is obvious. Arcane Trickster requires you to have Sneak Attack +2D6...meaning 3 levels of Rogue only ( or Assassin, but since that is another Prestige Class, I'm discounting it ).
Also, I don't think its bad design to have a focused Prestige Class, especially something niche like the Bladesinger. Bard is way more useful for fluff to the 2E version, which is what I was going for. Eldritch Knight handles the Fighter / Mage concept quite well, and there was no need to re-hash that ground.
Ah well, to each his own. I posted it for those who wish to use it. You don't like it, fine, use what works for you.
I guess I forgot to include it. I usually use thinblades when I play elves.
Well, Long Sword can't be Weapon Finnessed, so that precludes its use under your write-up, that's why I asked.
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I guess I forgot to include it. I usually use thinblades when I play elves.Well, Long Sword can't be Weapon Finnessed, so that precludes its use under your write-up, that's why I asked.
As I said, I forgot it. Not sure if how to change it, since I don't want to include longswords with Finesse. On the other hand, thinblades are flat out better than longswords in almost all instances, so maybe there's nothing to change.
but thinblades don't exist in pathfinder outside of the DM's whim.
umm.... Bladesinger, the dragon disciple was abad choice in reply to the other forumer's comment.
the DD had issues when it was first concieved, gaine more issues and finally became fixed.
a way to allow the sorcerers to duke it out in melee. the bard part was likely an after thought.
but this is off topic, and isnt that important being that backing it up is next to nil.both bladesingers are very good, save the following:
1: requires bard lvls in Bladesingers version
2: forgets longsword Byc's version.BYC, you could fix it so that the bladsinger gets the effect of finesse with the longsword, shortsword, rapier, etc while using bladesong/spellsong...
btw: thinblades are the best
Where was the Dragon Disciple fixed ? In the Pathfinder core book ? or was there a web enchancement. And plus, the Rogue thing stands, so that proves the point, even without the Dragon Disciple.
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I just re-read my version, and there's lots of minor errors, like Concentration as a pre-req. I'll do some rewriting again.
I'm going to read Unearthed Arcana again, plus PF paladin's bonded weapon ability to determine which one is more appropriate to this theme.
I'll change the pre-req feats to Weapon Focus longsword/rapier instead of Finesse, and then add Finesse to Bladesong Oath and allow it to apply to longswords. I'll do a bit more tweaking. My posted is the first draft, and I didn't really notice all the errors in it.
its fix as far as I'm concerned in the pathfinder rules.
the previous versions of it, in the dnd rules were well not to my liking, so they ahd issues afaIcand I missed the rogue one, so after seeing it, I'll give you that one.
but then I could gripe about that one too....
Well, if it was fixed in Pathfinder, that is the version I was refering to. Yes, you can use Bard, but who in their right mind would ? Leaving you with Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer.
And really ? You can gripe about anything if you look hard enough. I was only pointing out examples to refute the other posters claims. I don't think its bad to build Prestige Classes to go for a specific niche. There should be broad ones too, for sure. But saying its bad design is a cop out without offing why it is so, and not knowing your subject matter when the Pathfinder Rules do it too. I think part of the problem is that everyone has their view of the Bladesinger, which is why I state I'm doing the 2E version, as to my mind, it was the original, and best. Other will disagree. I chose Bard because it fit all the criteria...Light Armored Casting, correct Weapon proficiences, Bardic Music fit the " Dance " and " Song " aspects of the fluff for the fighting style, etc. I then designed it to fill in where Bard leaves off to make it work with the 2E descritption. As I said, I didn't want to re-hash Eldritch Knight either. I fail to see why this wasn't done correctly. You may not agree with the direction I took the Prestige Class, but you can't say it wasn't designed according to existing elements.
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I'm actually using a bladesinger as an NPC in my FR campaign and i just used the Arcane Archer and converted the abilities to apply to a 1h sword instead of arrows.
the 5th level of Distance Arrow i made Keen Blade.The 2nd level Imbue Arrow i changed to Imbue Blade that imbued a touch/ranged touch spell.
The 4th level ability Seeker Arrow i changed to Seeker Blade where you could ignore cover and concealment for the attack.
the 6th level ability Phase arrow i changed to Brilliant Blade which treats the blade as a brilliant energy weapon for that attack.
The 6th level ability Hail of Arrows i changed to Whirlwind Blade which pretty much acts as whirlwind attack, and if you already have that feat it lets you attack creatures up to 10ft away.
the 10th level ability Arrow of death i changed to Blade of death. You charge the blade with energy that acts just like a slaying arrow but the charge is held in the blade until the Bladesinger chooses to discharge it during an attack.the aesthetics like singing and such i just add to the NPC for flavor. This build has worked out rather well.
Nice idea. Simple and elegant. The only thing I dislike is how Arcane Archer requires a level 6 character before it can be taken, as opposed to most if not all 3.5's prestige classes, including other PF's prestige classes so far. Is Arcane Archer mistyped perhaps?
I guess I forgot to include it. I usually use thinblades when I play elves.Well, Long Sword can't be Weapon Finnessed, so that precludes its use under your write-up, that's why I asked.
But the elven curve blade can, that is why I asked.
Yes, BUT, the Elven Curve Blade is a Two-Handed weapon only. If you wish to ignore the fluff, then yes, but technically, the Bladesong Style only professes two hands on a weapon after they have run out of Spells. The Style is a one-handed weapon and free hand spell casting style. Even the 3.5 version kept this...in order to use the Defense Bonus, you had to have a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other.
Well, if it was fixed in Pathfinder, that is the version I was refering to. Yes, you can use Bard, but who in their right mind would ? Leaving you with Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer.
Going with a Bard for the Dragon Disciple has its benefits. The increase BAB, D8 hit dice, and ability to wear light armor while being able to cast is nice. Though I think I'd go with Summoner for the same reason because I like their spell selection better. Still you do give up on upper level casting and Blood of Dragons getting you sorcerer blood line powers sooner. So it's just a trade off.
Still I see no problem limiting a prestige class to specific class feature being required. So you take few levels in Bard and go with the class you want. Could easily be 2 levels of bard, 8 levels of fighter, and 10 levels of bladesinger. I like the concept. But I'm not sure why versatile performance is the feature you chose as pre-requisite when the Bladesong style relies on the Bardic Performance. Where does the versatile performance come into the Blade Singer class? Was it just to make it second level bard as the entry point?
Well, if it was fixed in Pathfinder, that is the version I was refering to. Yes, you can use Bard, but who in their right mind would ? Leaving you with Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer.
Going with a Bard for the Dragon Disciple has its benefits. The increase BAB, D8 hit dice, and ability to wear light armor while being able to cast is nice. Though I think I'd go with Summoner for the same reason because I like their spell selection better. Still you do give up on upper level casting and Blood of Dragons getting you sorcerer blood line powers sooner. So it's just a trade off.
Still I see no problem limiting a prestige class to specific class feature being required. So you take few levels in Bard and go with the class you want. Could easily be 2 levels of bard, 8 levels of fighter, and 10 levels of bladesinger. I like the concept. But I'm not sure why versatile performance is the feature you chose as pre-requisite when the Bladesong style relies on the Bardic Performance. Where does the versatile performance come into the Blade Singer class? Was it just to make it second level bard as the entry point?
Versitile Performance ( Dance ) was use as a prerequisite due to the fact that you then use your Perform ( Dance ) check in place of an Acrobatics check, which fits the fluff from both ends.
What is this stuff about an elf needing to go through Bard levels to become a bladesinger?
Elves could not even be bards in 2.0 when bladsingers arose, in fact the complete book of Elves* created an elven menstrial class for elves wanting to be bards.
*Check citation
I agree that saying levels of Bard is bad for a bladsinger, but I disagree for a different reason.
Make both have a base class and a prestige class they can be different with slightly different abilities.
This is the ongoing create a fighter/mage better than other fighter/mages....
You are correct Elves could not be Bards in 2nd Edition. That was the reason Bladesingers were ftr / mages. However, since that restriction has been removed from 3.0 on, the Bard is a way better fit, especially given the fluff of the original book about heir style was like a dance, and they would sing or whistle while fighting. Also, Bards now cast their spells in Light Armor with out spell failure, another feature of the Bladesinger. The Prestige Class just shores up the few things Bards don't get to complete the package. YMMV.
Oh, and it wasn't created to create " the better fighter / mage. Read my earlier posts, I in fact stated that I didn't want to re-hash the Eldritch Knight's place in the world. This prestige class was designed to fill a very specific niche, much like Arcane Archer.
I would allow the elven curve blade, which i view as a Katana/falchion hybrid based on the description of it, to be used with the class. my reasoning is this: You need 2 hands to use the blade, but not to hold it. I have a scottish claymore at home and i can hold upright with one hand, but surely can't swing it that way. so in this regard when you are taking a turn to cast a spell u can't attack with the weapon or any of its special qualities like defending and such. the mental image i get of this is full of fluff in my opinion.
*sigh* OK, one last time for the folks at home. The Bladesinger does not gain his defense Bonus when using a two-handed weapon. He cannot cast quickened Spells with a two-handed weapon. That is the fluff of the Bladesinger, like it or not. Even 3.0 held on to this. From Complete Warrior:
Bladesong Style (Ex): when wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand, and nothing in the other, a bladesinger adds her intelligence bonus to her AC, up to her level
Lesser Spellsong (Ex): when wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand and nothing in the other take 10 on concentration checks.
Song of celerity (Ex): once per day, quicken a spell, must be wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand and nothing in the other.
The fluff is quite clear...no two-handed weapons. At that point you are NOT using the Bladesong fighting style. If you are going to ignore the fluff, why do you want to play a Bladesinger ?
Well, I'm done here. Obviously my viewpoint is in the minority. I'm actually sorry I posted anything at all. Enjoy your thread.
I still agree that levels in anything is poor build.
I think any of the systems should have prerequistes listed as OR
Why is it bad design? What makes a class feature requirement any different that race requirement?
I agree level requirements seem kind of silly. But class feature requirements are valid as class features that one class has may appear in another class. Take uncanny dodge that both the Barbarian and Rogue have. Now just because only the bard has versatile performance is not a reason say it is a bad build. I mean it is no different than requiring the ability to cast arcane spells. The only issue is no other class as of yet has versatile performance.
Wasn't the duskblade in the PHB2 effectively a bladesinger base class, well a fighter / mage base class anyway. Thats what I thought a bladesinger was more a fighter / mage then say a bard fighter, but as you said, the Eldrith Knight seems to have that covered.
I prefer the idea of a blade singer being a prestige class, otherwise as I remember JB saying that base classes classes that may not be common in the main setting as a core class, but may be common in other areas. So having a blade singer as base class means you would expect them wondering around everywhere somewhere, which is how the 2nd ed fluff didn't detail them. More the warriors who have excelled in this sort of fighting style.
The reason I keep going on about the elven curve blade, its just with that weapon I thought it would be perfect to see a presite class that could use it to their benefit. Plus back in 3rd ed elves where proficient with longswords, whereas they aren't now, but are with anything with "elven" in the name. So perhaps if they made the elven curve blade able to be used one handed like a bastard sword, it would sort the problem. Seeing there is no elven thin blade around as well, makes sense.
LOL how did I miss that little tid bit. Need more sleep methinks.
Good point actually, but you could have used the duskblade as a prerequisite for blade singer. I remember toying with the idea of a swashbuckler / duskblade / bladesinger build.
Has anyone considered making it a feat tree?
next thing you know we will have someone come in, stating that he hates prcs, and that people just cant do that via roleplaying.
I hate PrCs! Why can't you roleplay one? :D
A lot of the Bladesinger is role-playing, but I still don't think the bard fits the theme. Then again, optimists cry at the thought of an unaugmented fighter/mage, so hey :)
Well not to be a jerk but why would it be a nightmare? Most of the Blade Singer (power wise) is already the same as a Eldritch Knight with the Arcane Armor feats. From there wouldn't the least work to be some feat that require you be a elf that let you cast a Quicken Spell as a part of a full attack action, but require it have a sword (not sure what all types you want it to work with, long sword, rapier, elf blades?) in hand for the somatic component? Maybe a verbal component if they do have to sing, I forget the flavor of the class. The other (with the first as the requirement) allows them to int. bonus to AC. For the record I don't hate all PrCs.
I never really had a problem with feat trees as a concept, but sometimes I don't see how x leads to y.
I never really had a problem with feat trees as a concept, but sometimes I don't see how x leads to y.the concept has a few flaws.
namely certain feats that have to many feats in order to gain( whirlwind from days gone by, and maybe still does).
a feat as I said taht grants powers at lvl X could work, but its one feat that grants several powers one at lvl x, another at lvl y etc.
Well I'd say it's more the execution. Some like weapon focus before weapon spec I've never heard anyone say anything about. But Whirlwind always seemed like it should go more cleave (with no power attack), great cleave, whirlwind - a feat tree about hitting more people then you normally could. But that's just my two cents.
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The main features of a bladesinger, mechanically in 3.5/PF, is to take 10/20 to cast in melee, quicken lower level spells, and AC bonuses. The drawbacks are elf/half-elf only, fighting with 1 hand, and the usual problems with multi-classing (even with a prestige class, it'll be a split focus class with some lag behind on spells).
Duskblade does his one trick pretty well, but it's all about damage dealing with him. I don't want to play duskblade because of that. Dealing damage can be done any number of ways, and if I was in the mood to do it magically, I'll play a duskblade. I want utility. Whether it's Spider Climb, a self buff, a buff for an ally, some direct damage once in a while, or whatever the day calls for. A duskblade can't do that very well.
I am willing to live with slower spellcasting progression for the expanded spell list, I just wished the 3.5 version wasn't so bad.