Hi, I am fairly new to Pathfinder and very new to the boards here. I have been playing a Ranger in a PBeM game and have worked up to nearly fifth level. That's probably not very impressive... but I'm having a great time.
My question is, if one were to play a specialist wizard, how ON EARTH do you decide which two schools to take as banned schools? I realize you can still study spells from them at a penalty. And really, the penalty is not great at middle and higher levels if you don't take too many spells from the banned schools. Still, a wizard doesn't have all that many "castings" per day. I'd hate to loose any!
I'm convinced by the many people who argue against wizards "blasting" away. So I'd be willing to give up Evocation. Still, there are must have spells in that school beyond fireball. Some of these are very valuable battlefield control spells. So I'd take one or two a day and take my lumps on losing another spell.
What other school though?
I guess I am too indecisive to play anything other than Universalists!! :-D
Are you excited by having your PC play with corpses? If no, dump Necromancy as your second school.
Are you excited by having your PC play with corpses? If no, dump Necromancy as your second school.
If I eliminate Evocation and Necromancy, than at first level, I loose:
Burning Hands (a great anti-minion spell)Ray of Enfeeblement (a great anti-fighter spell)
That's harsh for a low level Wizard, and both spells scale as well as first level spells can. :-(
This really depends on your wizard's concept.
As a Universalist, however, you have no opposition schools.
As a specialist, the two 'easiest' to give up are Enchantment (will save dependencies in most APs translate into "why bother casting" at the middle levels onward) and Illusion (more will save dependencies).
*However*, this depends on the campaign! As with any other character, I recommend tailoring your character to the campaign as best you can. And of course, a Universalist does not worry about double-slot spell prep and increased-DC-to-learn opposition spells.
I tend to take Illusion and Enchantment as my barred schools. Too much really good stuff at higher levels for Evocation and Necromancy.
Enchantment and Divination. Necromancy is good at high levels and a lot of nice defensive spells are illusion based as are the shadow spells which are useful too. Evocation has the force spells that are nice and conjuration... well conjuration is what makes a wizard great.
Excellent discussion everyone. I'll have to look at all those options... including the necromancy! :-)
I was thinking of playing a character who might work up to being an Eldritch Knight. (I know, it's not worth it mathematically, but I like it) I was considering Transmutation for the attrib bonus, or Diviner because I am a big believer in the importance of acting first. Especially if you are a caster... but anyone that wants to live should take Improved Initiative, IMHO.
Enchantment and Divination. Necromancy is good at high levels and a lot of nice defensive spells are illusion based as are the shadow spells which are useful too. Evocation has the force spells that are nice and conjuration... well conjuration is what makes a wizard great.
Wait... Shadow Evocation? Useful? Since when?
As you can see there are lots of different answers to this question and none of them are wrong. It depends on the player. My advice, go through all levels of wizard spells up to the level you expect get to in the campaign. Pick out your favorites. The ones you think you are most likely to use and enjoy. List them by school and figure out which schools have the fewest of those spells. Use those as opposed schools.
Enchantment and Divination. Necromancy is good at high levels and a lot of nice defensive spells are illusion based as are the shadow spells which are useful too. Evocation has the force spells that are nice and conjuration... well conjuration is what makes a wizard great.Wait... Shadow Evocation? Useful? Since when?
You didn't catch the period did you?
Shadow spells which are useful too <- it's right here!
Next thought:
Evocation has the force spells that are nice...
I'm totally missing something... are you or are you not stating that Shadow Evocation spells are useful?
A higher level slot and two saves that will almost guarantee the damage you deal will be around an eighth of what you're trying to deal... sorry for the off topic bit, but in my experience, Shadow Evocation spells are about the most useless spells ever devised.
I'm totally missing something... are you or are you not stating that Shadow Evocation spells are useful?
A higher level slot and two saves that will almost guarantee the damage you deal will be around an eighth of what you're trying to deal... sorry for the off topic bit, but in my experience, Shadow Evocation spells are about the most useless spells ever devised.
Shadow Evocation is a "build up" spell as well. Say you pepper the foe with a volley or two of regular magic missiles, then you unload a shadow evocation magic missile - odds are the target either doesn't attempt a Will saving throw at all, or at least suffers a -2 or -4 penalty on the Will save (circumstantial bonus that a GM can award). The various 'energy wall' spells are evocation. The utility of shadow evocation is more GM-dependant than most spells are.
shadow conjuration and its higher level variants are probably far more useful, stepping in for various conjurations that an illusionist may not know or otherwise have access to.
The #1 thing to consider is that opposed schools are no longer "banned" schools.
You can memorize one opposed school spell per spell level, and the doubled cost exactly balances out with your specialization bonus spell slot. Having Evocation be "opposed" doesn't need to get in the way of routinely memorizing fireball, in other words. And Pearls of Power can be your friend here.
What you should be considering is what schools would you be content with almost never memorizing MORE than 1 spell per spell level (or almost never memorizing 2+ spells from BOTH opposed schools/ spell level)? If the spells you like from the 2 opposed schools end up not sharing the same spell level, than it's no problem to memorize one 1st level opposed school A spell, one 2nd level opposed school B spell, etc (and come out exactly equal to Universalist, but with different School powers of your choice).
Transmuting seems a good one for "Gish" types, not just for a floating stat bonus, but because you will probably be memorizing a Transmutation spell 99.9% of the time ANYWAYS without the Specialization, so having to choose a Transmutation spell for the bonus spell slot is all gain no pain.
IMHO, PRPG has made it so having ANY of the schools as "opposed" is much more viable.
I'm totally missing something... are you or are you not stating that Shadow Evocation spells are useful?
A higher level slot and two saves that will almost guarantee the damage you deal will be around an eighth of what you're trying to deal... sorry for the off topic bit, but in my experience, Shadow Evocation spells are about the most useless spells ever devised.
Shadow Evocation is a "build up" spell as well. Say you pepper the foe with a volley or two of regular magic missiles, then you unload a shadow evocation magic missile - odds are the target either doesn't attempt a Will saving throw at all, or at least suffers a -2 or -4 penalty on the Will save (circumstantial bonus that a GM can award). The various 'energy wall' spells are evocation. The utility of shadow evocation is more GM-dependant than most spells are.
shadow conjuration and its higher level variants are probably far more useful, stepping in for various conjurations that an illusionist may not know or otherwise have access to.
I thought the will save was automatic...
I thought the will save was automatic...I'm totally missing something... are you or are you not stating that Shadow Evocation spells are useful?
A higher level slot and two saves that will almost guarantee the damage you deal will be around an eighth of what you're trying to deal... sorry for the off topic bit, but in my experience, Shadow Evocation spells are about the most useless spells ever devised.
Shadow Evocation is a "build up" spell as well. Say you pepper the foe with a volley or two of regular magic missiles, then you unload a shadow evocation magic missile - odds are the target either doesn't attempt a Will saving throw at all, or at least suffers a -2 or -4 penalty on the Will save (circumstantial bonus that a GM can award). The various 'energy wall' spells are evocation. The utility of shadow evocation is more GM-dependant than most spells are.
shadow conjuration and its higher level variants are probably far more useful, stepping in for various conjurations that an illusionist may not know or otherwise have access to.
Not automatically successful - after all, many many critters have Poor Will saves, so against them the shadow evocations will work far more often than not - and at a higher base saving throw DC to boot. It won't do so much for you against dragons and most outsiders, for example, but against most other creatures and big dumb meat shield types it works well enough. :)
Still... a higher level slot. You're better off using actual Evocation in my opinion.
Still... a higher level slot. You're better off using actual Evocation in my opinion.
Generally, yes, I also agree. The big advantage (besides being accessible to illusionists) to it is integrated flexibility from that one spell slot. This definitely has its uses!
Still... a higher level slot. You're better off using actual Evocation in my opinion.
I have to disagree. It's one spell, prepared in a higher level slot, for the ability to cast *any* evocation on the wizard spell list of a level lower. That's one spell that gives every lower level evocation spell in a single slot, choose the effect as you see fit, versus filling up lower level slots or scrolls with specific spells.
|
In 3.5, one big use of greater shadow evocation was to give access to contingency, an evocation spell normally banned to those who took Evocation as a banned school. Since you can now take it even as an opposition school spell, the need for greater shadow evocation is much lower. Also, there were feats and prestige classes in 3e that let you boost the % reduction for disbelief--I've seen it go as high as 110%, if not higher.
It would still be worthwhile if you play an illusion-focused character, since a single spells allows a wide variety of possible effects, adding flexibility. But for most wizards, these spells are probably not worth it. Another strike against it in Pathfinder is that there are far fewer potential evocation spells to emulate if you eliminate all the 3.5 material such as the Spell Compendium from play.
Personally, I'd put evocation and enchantment at the top. Since divination is now available as an opposition school, it might also make a good choice, especially if you have a cleric or other secondary caster in the group to cast these spells.
Conjuration and transmutation both have way too many useful spells. Abjuration has fewer, but some of them are essential enough that I wouldn't recommend making it an opposition school (though it is certainly possible). Necromancy...personally, I have a fondness for the debuffs this school offers (like enervation or waves of fatigue).
Still... a higher level slot. You're better off using actual Evocation in my opinion.I have to disagree. It's one spell, prepared in a higher level slot, for the ability to cast *any* evocation on the wizard spell list of a level lower. That's one spell that gives every lower level evocation spell in a single slot, choose the effect as you see fit, versus filling up lower level slots or scrolls with specific spells.
And if the baddie makes both saves, he's taking 1/8 the damage. I'm still not seeing how it ends up being very useful. Sure, an Illusionist can take it while having Evocation as a barred school, but 1/8 the damage... if you're going to blast, make sure you're at least doing decent damage.
As for Illusionists in general, doesn't the entire school become obsolete as more and more monsters at higher level have things like True Seeing? Wouldn't a Cleric or Wizard with TS cast essentially be immune to most of the Illusionist's Illusion spells?
Not at all, True Seeing only works on a part of the illusionist school and there are plenty of monsters without TS, and casting TS is expensive and has short duration, so not considered a regular "all day buff" (especially since it doesn't last all day!). For all of these reasons there are plenty of good low level illusions to use on a regular basis...
See also Simulacrum, and Project Image... Granted you need a means to "hide" for project Image to really be worth it, but say you get down to Diminutive size and high in someone's pocket... so long as you have line of effect to he project image they'll think it's you protecting you from many effects since it is a shadow effect.
Shadow walk can be useful too.
And there aren't really that many monsters with True seeing even at higher levels.
Still... a higher level slot. You're better off using actual Evocation in my opinion.I have to disagree. It's one spell, prepared in a higher level slot, for the ability to cast *any* evocation on the wizard spell list of a level lower. That's one spell that gives every lower level evocation spell in a single slot, choose the effect as you see fit, versus filling up lower level slots or scrolls with specific spells.And if the baddie makes both saves, he's taking 1/8 the damage. I'm still not seeing how it ends up being very useful. Sure, an Illusionist can take it while having Evocation as a barred school, but 1/8 the damage... if you're going to blast, make sure you're at least doing decent damage.
As for Illusionists in general, doesn't the entire school become obsolete as more and more monsters at higher level have things like True Seeing? Wouldn't a Cleric or Wizard with TS cast essentially be immune to most of the Illusionist's Illusion spells?
Only if the illusionists's dispel attempts fail. The abjuration school ironically is one school you cannot afford to take as an opposition school because of dispel magic, if nothing else. At higher levels repulsion is also a potential life saver for the squishy arcane caster. Illusions pack some useful spells - although the old-school favorite "project image" at some tables has - in my opinion - the ludicrous interpretation that if you save against the project image you do not care about any spells cast through that image. Also, do not forget a potentially strong asset for the shadow subschool spells - immunity to mind-affecting magic offers no protection whatsoever. This makes these spells very effective against animated dead, animals, vermin and constructs that are not immune to magic outright.
Let's look at the 4th level and lower evocations just in the Core Rulebook:
- 4th fire shield, ice storm, resilient sphere , shout, wall of fire and wall of ice
- 3rd daylight , fireball, lightning bolt, tiny hut and wind wall
- 2nd continual flame, darkness, flaming sphere, gust of wind , scorching ray and shatter
- 1st burning hands, floating disk, magic missile and shocking grasp
So, just the one spell gives (circumstantial) access to about 20 spells that needs no access to a spell component pouch nor arcane foci. Some are pretty close to useless, others have potential uses beyond those of the normal spell. For example, a shadow resilient sphere can be used to permit your allies to attack the critter within if they are successful in disbelieving, while the mindless critter trapped within hammers futilely at the sphere. For a sorcerer or in a campaign with limited access to learning new spells for a spell book, the shadow spells could be invaluable.
You might consider slighting divination. Generally speaking, I like the ability to cast divinations, but seldom cast many, and often cast them during down time, when spells per day isn't terribly important.
I don't know... Divination Specialists get some juicy stuff.
You might consider slighting divination. Generally speaking, I like the ability to cast divinations, but seldom cast many, and often cast them during down time, when spells per day isn't terribly important.I don't know... Divination Specialists get some juicy stuff.
Oh yeah, Divination specialists get some great stuff, however it's not all that bad of a school to dump if you're not a diviner.
I thought you couldn't exclude Divination.... was that changed for PF?
Way to eat my post Paizo boards.
Long story short, be a Conjurer or Diviner (I prefer Diviner) and choose Enchantment, Evocation or Necro as your banned schools.
I thought you couldn't exclude Divination.... was that changed for PF?
Yes it was, in addition a diviner has to give up two schools just like anyone else.
However specializing in Divination is rather easy, and if those tactical feats make it in as they are now one of them would be really nice as a first level feat for the entire party.
Generally put there is at least one divination spell per spell level that would be worth taking on a regular basis, and the class abilities for the Diviner are very nice.
However specializing in Divination is rather easy, and if those tactical feats make it in as they are now one of them would be really nice as a first level feat for the entire party.
Tactical feats?
However specializing in Divination is rather easy, and if those tactical feats make it in as they are now one of them would be really nice as a first level feat for the entire party.Tactical feats?
Yes please share. Link?
They are in the Open Playtest for Inquistor, found here.