Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
I am having difficulty understanding this passage, particularly the part about how the monster is supposed to catch up to the party in levels. Can someone simplify it for me, provide an example, or otherwise explain it to me in some other way?
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.I am having difficulty understanding this passage, particularly the part about how the monster is supposed to catch up to the party in levels. Can someone simplify it for me, provide an example, or otherwise explain it to me in some other way?
The issue is that there is no flat formula for LA that works. Another issue which was brought up in your post is that a monster ability that is good at low level becomes a lot less impressive later on. Basically a monster that is worth a level adjustment of +3 at level 5 may only be worth a level adjustment of +1 by level 10, as an example.
The issue is that there is no flat formula for LA that works. Another issue which was brought up in your post is that a monster ability that is good at low level becomes a lot less impressive later on. Basically a monster that is worth a level adjustment of +3 at level 5 may only be worth a level adjustment of +1 by level 10, as an example.
So what is the recommended progression then?
Per Bestiary it would work like this :
Monster CR = 3
Monster starts with just racial hit dice and stats as a level 3 character. When he reaches 4th level, he gains a class level. And so forth, until level 6. Halfway between 5 and 6 he gains an extra class level. The most times you can do this is 1/2 CR (for a 3 CR monster, he gains 2 extra class levels over his career). Like below.
3 = Racial Hit Dice
4 = Racial Hit Dice + 1 Class
5 = Racial Hit Dice + 2 Class
5.5 = Racial Hit Dice + 3 Class
6 = Racial Hit Dice + 4 Class
7 = Racial Hit Dice + 5 Class
8 = Racial Hit Dice + 6 Class
8.5 = Racial Hit Dice + 7 Class
9 = Racial Hit Dice + 8 Class
...
20 = Racial Hit Dice + 19 Class
The issue is that there is no flat formula for LA that works. Another issue which was brought up in your post is that a monster ability that is good at low level becomes a lot less impressive later on. Basically a monster that is worth a level adjustment of +3 at level 5 may only be worth a level adjustment of +1 by level 10, as an example.So what is the recommended progression then?
MDT has it right, but once again you should take the monster's abilities into account.
MDT has it right, but once again you should take the monster's abilities into account.The issue is that there is no flat formula for LA that works. Another issue which was brought up in your post is that a monster ability that is good at low level becomes a lot less impressive later on. Basically a monster that is worth a level adjustment of +3 at level 5 may only be worth a level adjustment of +1 by level 10, as an example.So what is the recommended progression then?
Thanks. Another note, although it doesn't explicitly state it, a CR 1 monster with one hit dice you can probably just use 'as is' by replacing the racial hit die with a class level, honestly. If you want to follow the rules precisely, you end up with a character that has an extra hit-die at 3rd level and higher, which to me is a bit unfair to everyone else.
I totally agree with this... I am plaing an NPC evil drow noble for two session as a player and when the GM asked me to build this, the difference in that above vs a static level loss is really huge on how on par a character is...especially taking into account the abilities.
Basically +1 with explanation.
Per Bestiary it would work like this :
Monster CR = 3
Monster starts with just racial hit dice and stats as a level 3 character. When he reaches 4th level, he gains a class level. And so forth, until level 6. Halfway between 5 and 6 he gains an extra class level. The most times you can do this is 1/2 CR (for a 3 CR monster, he gains 2 extra class levels over his career). Like below.
3 = Racial Hit Dice
4 = Racial Hit Dice + 1 Class
5 = Racial Hit Dice + 2 Class
5.5 = Racial Hit Dice + 3 Class
6 = Racial Hit Dice + 4 Class
7 = Racial Hit Dice + 5 Class
8 = Racial Hit Dice + 6 Class
8.5 = Racial Hit Dice + 7 Class
9 = Racial Hit Dice + 8 Class
...
20 = Racial Hit Dice + 19 Class
So how do the non-monster party members compare throughout this progression? I think that's why I don't understand, it's not shown in the context of the rest of the party.
So how do the non-monster party members compare throughout this progression? I think that's why I don't understand, it's not shown in the context of the rest of the party.
Uhm,
They are at the level they are at based on xp. So in other words, a CR 3 monster could only be 'equal' to a party that had 3rd level characters (Fighter 3, Ranger 3, Cleric 3, Minotaur) for example.All of them should go up in level as per normal.
I thought CR1 creatures didn't get to eliminate their 1 CR?
Maybe I'm wrong....
Again, it's not explicitly laid out. Again, GM has to decide. However, a CR 3 is specifically shown to drop 2 levels, which seems to indicate you round in favor of the character (0.5 * 3 = 1.5, or 2 level reductions to the CR modifier). Following the same logic, a CR 1 would be eligible for a 0.5 * 1 = 0.5, or 1 level CR reduction.
EDIT: Personally, for a CR 1, I double the number of levels you have to get to get a reduction, so reduce it at level 6, not level 3.
PRD
GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.
The only way I can suggest a how to handle the situation is for you to give me a specific monster. That is why I keep saying there is no hard rule that works for all monsters.
Some monsters should never be used in a game because they will never scale correctly. They should not be used in an serious game anyway, now if the group decides to game for the purpose of fun, and throw balance out the window... :)
Edit: I did not mean "come to me" to mean you should ask me how to run your game. I was trying to say I can only judge on a case by case basis, and I don't really understand that passage either after reading over it again.
So how do the non-monster party members compare throughout this progression? I think that's why I don't understand, it's not shown in the context of the rest of the party.Uhm,
They are at the level they are at based on xp. So in other words, a CR 3 monster could only be 'equal' to a party that had 3rd level characters (Fighter 3, Ranger 3, Cleric 3, Minotaur) for example.All of them should go up in level as per normal.
It sounded to me like, after a while, the monster was supposed to have his class levels "catch up" to the non-monster PC's class levels as his racial HD and abilities mean almost nothing at high levels.
That's exactly what it means.Example a CR 2 monster, will play alongside level 2 PC's.
When the CR 2 monster reaches class level 3, he will gain a 4th level 1/2 way between 3rd and 4th level's xp totals, and then he will gain another level at the level he should have gained his 4th level.
As such, when the rest of the party is level 6, he will be level 5+racial stuff, and that difference will remain for the rest of the game.
So for every 2 class levels the non-monster PCs gain, the monster PC gains 3, up until he has caught up a number of levels equal to half his CR (round down)?
So I have a CR 8 monster PC with 6 HD and three 8th-level standard PCs.
It would look something like this:
Monster HD / PC Level
------------------------------
06 HD / 08
07 HD / 09
09 HD / 10 - 1st jump out of 4
10 HD / 11
11 HD / 12
13 HD / 13 - 2nd jump out of 4
14 HD / 14
15 HD / 15
17 HD / 16 - 3rd jump out of 4
18 HD / 17
19 HD / 18
21 HD / 19 - 4th jump out of 4
From there on out it's 1 for 1 rather than 3 for 2.
(Please note that HD refers to both racial HD and class levels, I know that monster PCs aren't supposed to advance racial HD.)
Is that right?
Is that right?
Looks right to me.
Looks right to me.
Is that right?
So when everyone reaches 20th-level, the example monster PC will have 6 racial HD and 16 class levels while everyone else is 20th level. The monster loses out on the top tier class abilities, but makes up for it by having marginally higher stats (BAB, saves, HP, etc.) and depreciating racial abilities.
That actually does strike me as being far more balanced than the ECL system.
It also kinda/sorta explains why one book says use HD while the other says use CR. It appears you have to use both.
In any case, I take it a GM should keep a close eye on the ongoing advancement and alter it as necessary for game balance.
I'm mystified why they dropped LA, and then tried to sneak back into it with a CR modifier.
I like Paizo a lot, but that's... absurd.
LA isn't CR for a reason, and trying to make ANY evaluation of a monster based on CR is a bad, bad, bad idea.
Mind you, LA isn't perfect, but imperfect is better than this. The solution to 'LA isn't good enough' is to modify LA, IMO.
I'm mystified why they dropped LA, and then tried to sneak back into it with a CR modifier.
I like Paizo a lot, but that's... absurd.
LA isn't CR for a reason, and trying to make ANY evaluation of a monster based on CR is a bad, bad, bad idea.
Mind you, LA isn't perfect, but imperfect is better than this. The solution to 'LA isn't good enough' is to modify LA, IMO.
The fact that LA was a static mechanic in the first place made it worthless as far as balancing characters was concerned.
I think Pathfinder's method of handling it (assuming I am understanding it correctly) is far better.
Remember too, that CR is much better represented in Pathfinder than it is in D&D.
I'm mystified why they dropped LA, and then tried to sneak back into it with a CR modifier.
I like Paizo a lot, but that's... absurd.
LA isn't CR for a reason, and trying to make ANY evaluation of a monster based on CR is a bad, bad, bad idea.
Mind you, LA isn't perfect, but imperfect is better than this. The solution to 'LA isn't good enough' is to modify LA, IMO.
Actually,
If you look at it, the CR is a LA, along with buying off LA's built into it. The problem you had before was LA + HD = Character Level. Racial Hit dice just don't equal a level in a class, especially not at higher levels. By taking hit dice out of the character level equation, you remove a mechanic that is great at lower levels and useless at higher.
But this is wrong. Completely.
CR has nothing to do with LA, because what matters for an enemy in an encounter is VASTLY different than what matters as a PC in a game.
Consider 'Wish, once per hour' and 'Wish, once per day.'
For an enemy? In nearly every case, the two powers are pretty much the same threat. In an encounter, the enemy is going to get one Wish off. In plots, the enemy is likely to get as many Wishes as he can afford to cast.
For a PC? The first power is SIGNIFICANTLY more usful than the second.
Another example, mystic theurges. They are VASTLY more useful as PCs than as NPCs (setting aside whether they are all that useful as PCs to begin with).
And so on.
CR is a lousy basis for PCs because 'challenge' isn't 'usefulness.'
As for racial hit dice, racial hit dice are essentially reduced-power classes that balance for the benefits of a creature.
So LA + HD = character level worked, because part of the LA was actually already paid for by weak HD.
As I estimate it, outsider and dragon HD are about full class value, magical beast and monstrous humanoid are 3/4 value, and the rest are 1/2 value.
So when an ogre had LA +2 + 4 giant levels (now humanoid levels) = ECL 6, 4 giant levels were about the same power as 2 regular levels and 'paid off' another 2 LA.
As I see it.
But this is wrong. Completely.
CR has nothing to do with LA, because what matters for an enemy in an encounter is VASTLY different than what matters as a PC in a game.
Consider 'Wish, once per hour' and 'Wish, once per day.'
For an enemy? In nearly every case, the two powers are pretty much the same threat. In an encounter, the enemy is going to get one Wish off. In plots, the enemy is likely to get as many Wishes as he can afford to cast.
For a PC? The first power is SIGNIFICANTLY more usful than the second.
Another example, mystic theurges. They are VASTLY more useful as PCs than as NPCs (setting aside whether they are all that useful as PCs to begin with).
And so on.
CR is a lousy basis for PCs because 'challenge' isn't 'usefulness.'
As for racial hit dice, racial hit dice are essentially reduced-power classes that balance for the benefits of a creature.
So LA + HD = character level worked, because part of the LA was actually already paid for by weak HD.
As I estimate it, outsider and dragon HD are about full class value, magical beast and monstrous humanoid are 3/4 value, and the rest are 1/2 value.So when an ogre had LA +2 + 4 giant levels (now humanoid levels) = ECL 6, 4 giant levels were about the same power as 2 regular levels and 'paid off' another 2 LA.
As I see it.
EDIT: I wrote a marvelous rebuttal and the forums ate it.
2nd Attempt:
I wouldn't go so far as to say it is COMPLETELY wrong.
Ever notice how the CR for a humanoid with class levels is always equal to his class levels? A CR 4 creature is roughly balanced with a 4th-level PC. If the two were to get into a fight, there is a 50/50 chance of either of them winning. That's why the CR system demands that encounters be skewed in favor of the PCs (by making most encounters 4 on 1, or some similar variant). If it worked any other way, campaigns would be extremely short (only a coin toss away from ending, in fact).
That makes CR an awesome tool for measuring a character's potential power. You are exactly right that certain things should be looked out for, as they benefit players more than monsters, but that only supports the notion that the Pathfinder method is superior.
In D&D you are stuck with a balancing system that rarely works. In Pathfinder you are given a more freeform system that lets you balance things as needed. The rules also encourage GMs to keep a close eye on monster characters for precisely the reason you mention. Another advantage of Pathfinder's system over the LA system, is that (with your GM's permission) you have the potential to play ANY monster, rather than being limited to just those with a listed LA.
In the rigid LA system, when it begins to break down in terms of balance (and it often does), there's nothing you can do short of houseruling it. Pathfinder's CR system lets you make adjustments on the go (and it also takes into account such things as diminishing returns from racial abilities, which D&D doesn't).
That's not quite what I wanted to say in my original rebuttal, but it's close (and I've noticed you've done some extensive edits yourself in the meantime).
Because it's very clear to me why it's a really bad idea?
I've been tinkering with monsters as PCs for... man, has it been a decade since 3e came out? Followed along with Savage Species, and so on.
Consider how 4e went and divorced enemies from PCs completely. I think that went too far, but the basic premise, that 'what applies to enemies is not the same for PCs' is a valid one.
Because it's very clear to me why it's a really bad idea?
I've been tinkering with monsters as PCs for... man, has it been a decade since 3e came out? Followed along with Savage Species, and so on.
Consider how 4e went and divorced enemies from PCs completely. I think that went too far, but the basic premise, that 'what applies to enemies is not the same for PCs' is a valid one.
I think it works great for CR's up to about 6. Anything above CR 6 and it starts breaking down.
However, most monster's that players want to play tend to be in the 1/3 to 6 range CR (Kobolds, Lizardfolk, Minotaurs, Centaurs, Blink Dogs, Drow, Duerger, etc).
I do agree at a certain level, it breaks down (CR 15's tend to be very very unblanced as player characters). That doesn't invalidate the approach as an interim approach until Paizo can come out with a Savage Species replacement. It just means that the GM needs to look at the monster and confirm.
For races with racial hit dice, I've been taking off 1 CR per two racial hit dice, and converting the racial hit dice over to class levels (with a minimum of 1 CR). This works great for lizardfolk so far (in my tests with them as NPCs).
HAHA! Stupid forums tried to eat my post, I copy/pasted it first just in case. Score 1 for MDT, 47 for Forums.
So for every 2 class levels the non-monster PCs gain, the monster PC gains 3, up until he has caught up a number of levels equal to half his CR (round down)?
So I have a CR 8 monster PC with 6 HD and three 8th-level standard PCs.
It would look something like this:
Monster HD / PC Level
------------------------------
06 HD / 08
07 HD / 09
09 HD / 10 - 1st jump out of 4
10 HD / 11
11 HD / 12
13 HD / 13 - 2nd jump out of 4
14 HD / 14
15 HD / 15
17 HD / 16 - 3rd jump out of 4
18 HD / 17
19 HD / 18
21 HD / 19 - 4th jump out of 4From there on out it's 1 for 1 rather than 3 for 2.
(Please note that HD refers to both racial HD and class levels, I know that monster PCs aren't supposed to advance racial HD.)
Is that right?
How do you run monstrous characters whose HD are higher than their CR? After looking at the bestiary more, I find that this is rather common whereas such easy to rule on cases (like my example above) pretty much don't exist.
Bump? Anyone have any advcie answers to my question in bold above?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If nobody does, will you wait another seven years before bumping again? Just curious. :)
Was about to cuote and argue a few things mentioned but then I saw the date hahah
I've experienced the old 3.5 LA and savage species and imo they're both bad, not gonna say why because that's not the main point.
May I ask what monsters are you looking at?
Which chart is that, John?
If nobody does, will you wait another seven years before bumping again? Just curious. :)
I didn't wait seven years. There were other threads, of which this seemed to be the most on point.
Treat the amount of XP they must earn as if they had one higher character level than they actually have. For example, the aforementioned Drow Noble must earn enough XP, beginning at 0, to reach 3rd level to gain its second level. I.e. The Drow noble is treated as a level 2 character, even though it has only one class level.
This is what I'd do with Drow Nobles and Munavri.
You also need to look for traps.
The faerie dragon is CR 2, but has 3 dragon hit dice and 3rd level sorcerer casting. If you follow the normal progression, they start with a higher caster level than the party. Dragon hit dice are as good as you can get with d12 hp, good BAB, all three good saves, and 6+int skill points. On top of this they get a 40 point buy with great stats for a lot of classes, AC bonus, flight, telepathy and 3/day greater invisibility.
At 20th level they beat a normal sorcerer across the board on numbers and only miss out on one spell and the bloodline capstone. Or you could build an arcane trickster with 21st level casting.
Their SR and breath weapon are the only features that fade into uselessness over time. I don't see it as worth a whole CR adjustment.
There are other creatures that have caster level or BAB significantly higher than their CR.
For my games, I use the highest of CR, HD, caster level or racial BAB for my starting cost. (I'll consider not doing caster level or racial BAB if they are going a different direction with class levels) I'll decide if they can buy it off and how many levels they can buy it off based on what the specific packages are. I also only give them a point buy if their racial stats are below the party's point buy, in which case they get the difference. If they don't, they can still switch them around as if they had a point buy of 0
Yeah, it definitely is a good idea to deviate from the standard rule on a case by case basis.
One thing one should consider though, are things like ingame social stigma as a balancing factor. The inability to walk into a town to re-equip or recover can be a BIG deal in some games, at least until you get high enough level to have easy access to magic that will allow you to circumvent that issue, or else be famous enough of a hero that people no longer care that you're a monster.
Take the mongrelfolk for example. They have 2 monstrous humanoid racial HD at CR 1. The HD base stats aren't bad, nor are the ability modifiers. You are initially slightly more powerful than the other characters, but that fades really fast as you are always one class level behind everyone else. What's more, you're a freaking mongrelfolk! Pretty much nobody likes you.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
It would be neat if, now that Pathfinder is a mature game system, Paizo decided to do a Savage Species-esque book with some commonly desired monster races officially worked up. I think the 3.0 Savage Species was a interesting attempt, even though some of the monsters were effectively unplayable. The Grig with (1/2)d6 HD at 4th level comes to mind. But a book with rules for using some low-tier giants, outsiders, monstrous humanoids, fey, and dragons as PCs would be fun.
One thing one should consider though, are things like ingame social stigma as a balancing factor. The inability to walk into a town to re-equip or recover can be a BIG deal in some games, at least until you get high enough level to have easy access to magic that will allow you to circumvent that issue, or else be famous enough of a hero that people no longer care that you're a monster.
Take the mongrelfolk for example. They have 2 monstrous humanoid racial HD at CR 1. The HD base stats aren't bad, nor are the ability modifiers. You are initially slightly more powerful than the other characters, but that fades really fast as you are always one class level behind everyone else. What's more, you're a freaking mongrelfolk! Pretty much nobody likes you.
Good point, but this is also something that needs to be adjudicated based on the campaign. For a hoity-toity game of courtly intrigue, this is a big deal. For a wretched hive of scum and villainy game, it's not so bad. For a game set out in unexplored wilderness, it's not an issue at all.
Another factor with adjusting for prejudice is that reputations can affect this. When your mongrelman takes a poisoned arrow for the king and gets knighted in the order of unquestionable valor, then quite a few people will overlook his patchwork face.
One thing one should consider though, are things like ingame social stigma as a balancing factor. The inability to walk into a town to re-equip or recover can be a BIG deal in some games, at least until you get high enough level to have easy access to magic that will allow you to circumvent that issue, or else be famous enough of a hero that people no longer care that you're a monster.
Take the mongrelfolk for example. They have 2 monstrous humanoid racial HD at CR 1. The HD base stats aren't bad, nor are the ability modifiers. You are initially slightly more powerful than the other characters, but that fades really fast as you are always one class level behind everyone else. What's more, you're a freaking mongrelfolk! Pretty much nobody likes you.
Good point, but this is also something that needs to be adjudicated based on the campaign. For a hoity-toity game of courtly intrigue, this is a big deal. For a wretched hive of scum and villainy game, it's not so bad. For a game set out in unexplored wilderness, it's not an issue at all.
Another factor with adjusting for prejudice is that reputations can affect this. When your mongrelman takes a poisoned arrow for the king and gets knighted in the order of unquestionable valor, then quite a few people will overlook his patchwork face.
Quite right. As I said, case by case.