Nope the chart have a - which means no access. A 0 is a special case spelled out int the paladin and ranger section.
It is clear. Very clear. I am guessing anyone playing a caster will read both the class and the magic section. They make it clear if you read them.
If no one has read those sections , I don't know what to say but good luck
But hey if you want to have 40 spell slots at level 1 and everyone casting spells with a high Int, your game
But hey if you want to have 40 spell slots at level 1 and everyone casting spells with a high Int, your game
Same kind of logic used here as in the rest of your arguments. As for 40 spell slots at level 1, the class tables spell out exactly when you get the base slots. The ability score table does NOT spell out exactly when you get the bonuses. Also, as for everyone casting spells with high intelligence, it's also spelled out that you need more than a high intelligence to cast ANY spell (appropriate class level, class special abilities, etc.). I've also stated I agree with what you're saying as far as how the rule should be interpreted. That doesn't change the fact that it IS open for interpretation.
If you see your example here as the same as what I'm saying, then you've missed the argument entirely and there's no point in continuing.
Man it was bolded a few times where it says you do not gain them. Spell slots are level depended. Every single one. You gain"extra" based off a high score. The extra does not change the fact slots are level dependent.
So either
1> you gain the extra when you gain the slots
or
2> you have all slots at level 1
There is no other option. Because the rules show you{with a chart even} you gain slots per level.
Same kind of logic used here as in the rest of your arguments. As for 40 spell slots at level 1, the class tables spell out exactly when you get the base slots. The ability score table does NOT spell out exactly when you get the bonuses.
But hey if you want to have 40 spell slots at level 1 and everyone casting spells with a high Int, your game
YES YES IT DOES!
It specifically states to go to the class chart to see when you get the slots! You really can't get more explicit than that.
Here it is again.
" In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level."
You be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.
Otherwise you don't get the slots! It's only hard to understand if you want it to be hard to understand. You must be able to cast spells of the given spell level to get the bonus slots for that spell level.
Must have high enough level to cast spells to get bonus slots.
Abraham that's like the 5th or so time that rules been posted. Seems it's "unclear"
YES YES IT DOES!
It specifically states to go to the class chart to see when you get the slots! You really can't get more explicit than that.
Here it is again.
" In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level."
You be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.
Otherwise you don't get the slots! It's only hard to understand if you want it to be hard to understand. You must be able to cast spells of the given spell level to get the bonus slots for that spell level.
Must have high enough level to cast spells to get bonus slots.
I guess what I'm saying is your argument does not address the question at hand. Here is your quote used as evidence within its context:
"Abilities and SpellcastersThe ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type
of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards;
Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma
for bards, paladins, and sorcerers." - this is the only mention of bonus spells in this section
"In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details." - this only refers to being able to cast spells of a given level
This says nothing about when you get the slots. Only that you have to be high enough level in the appropriate class to cast spells of that level in addition to having the ability score. Since you can place spells of lower level in higher level slots the argument could be made that there is utility in those slots at a lower level without the need for higher level spells. I disagree with this argument, but it has merit.
The table just says, "BONUS: for having a high ability score you get access to these fabulous prizes that you otherwise would not!" It doesn't say, "but you don't get them until you can cast spells of the same level as the slot."
I also simply point out the case for it and whether or not any clarification is made is up to Paizo. I think it's unclear, but then that's what this board is for: to clear up some of the mildly ambiguous items that inevitably pop up in such a complex ruleset. I'm happy with the official answer received here, especially since it's the way I have been interpreting it all along anyway. I just don't think Studpuffin should be thrown under the bus simply because some here don't agree that he had a valid point and are offended that the assumptions they have always made might be in question.
The simple fact is, it is an assumption because it is not spelled out. I agree with the assumption because it makes sense. But I also see a valid argument for the other side.
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But it never says they can't! This needs clarified.Can we get some clarification that you can't take actions when dead?
Ever get a book called Murphy's Rules? it's a collection of all the amusingly oddball things about games. At least two games mentioned have a rule stating "A Dead Character can take no actions". Or something similar.
It's an extremely fun book One of my favorites was to find that TSR had trademarked the term Nazi (used on a figure)
But I also see a valid argument for the other side.
Point out this valid argument. I have yet to see it. If you go by the rules there is not valid argument.
If folks 1>can't read a chart and 2> do not read the rules I really do not know what to tell you.
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If folks 1>can't read a chart and 2> do not read the rules I really do not know what to tell you.
I do... the point's been done to death and if you want to do what you want to do with your own game that's fine. If OP is losing an argument with a GM on this who's advocating the standard rule that's the OP's problem.
Either way, I'm done with this thread.
Seriously, folks:
1) The Abilities and Spellcasters section on page 16 says, "In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level."
2) The wizard section on Spells on page 78 says, "A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Wizard." Other spellcasting classes have a similar entry.
So even if your Int is 44 (giving you bonus spells of level 1 through 9), you can't use those bonus spell slots until your class level is such that your class table grants you access to the appropriate level of spells.
Think of Table 1-3 as having a + in front of all those numerical values, so the 16-17 row's bonus spells per day columns read as follows:
0 —, 1st +1, 2nd +1, 3rd +1, 4th —, 5th —, 6th —, 7th —, 8th —, 9th —
If the listing in your class table is a number, you can add the value from Table 1-3 to that to see how many total spells of that level you can cast per day. If the listing is NOT a number (i.e., it's a dash), you can't add the value from Table 1-3 because you can't add numbers to dashes.
It's two rules in the book that work together, and it's clear unless you're deliberately trying to read it in a way that gives you something you shouldn't get.
It's an extremely fun book One of my favorites was to find that TSR had trademarked the term Nazi (used on a figure)
Actually, LucasFilm trademarked "Nazi," it was just in a TSR game: link to rec.games.frp.dnd FAQ, which I worked on
Sean:
The problem some folks are having is that a metamagiced spell is not a higher level, it's a higher slot.
So a maximized magic missile is still a first level spell -- it just takes up a 4th level slot.
Legalistically speaking, 'a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level' doesn't forbid a 1st level wizard from casting a maximized magic missile. His class is enough to cast first level spells.
As for 'you can't add numbers to dashes,' again, there is no rule written out that excplicitly says that.
Now, me, I think the intent is clear and am not confused at all. But for folks who want everything written out, there is apparently no specific verbiage for this.
Sean:
The problem some folks are having is that a metamagiced spell is not a higher level, it's a higher slot.So a maximized magic missile is still a first level spell -- it just takes up a 4th level slot.
Legalistically speaking, 'a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level' doesn't forbid a 1st level wizard from casting a maximized magic missile. His class is enough to cast first level spells.
As for 'you can't add numbers to dashes,' again, there is no rule written out that excplicitly says that.
Now, me, I think the intent is clear and am not confused at all. But for folks who want everything written out, there is apparently no specific verbiage for this.
No by RAW he can not. He does not have the slot. It clearly shows when your class gains slot, page 16 states you do not gain it until you have both a score and level. The level is the slot
At this point it's just someone trying to make a loophole where none exists. It is clear. You do not have the slot.
I would not errata anything. More than 95% of the gaming community has no issue with the rule. Now if the verbage was significantly different from 3.5, which is where most of us come from, I would understand. The point of the rule has been cleared up. The point still being disputed is how much clarification does a rule need. I have noticed that if a player wants something bad enough no amount of clarification will stop them from twisting a rule. I really don't want a rule book written in legalese.
Seeker:
Except 'spell level' is different than 'spell slot,' as metamagic shows.
So while I'll heartily agree the intent is clear on page 16, I am forced to concede the rules don't specifically say.
Legalistically speaking, 'a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level' doesn't forbid a 1st level wizard from casting a maximized magic missile.
Yes it does, because a maximized magic missile uses a 4th-level slot, and wizards don't get 4th-level slots until they're 7th level.
His class is enough to cast first level spells.
And first level spells use 1st-level slots... except when you metamagic them, they use higher-level slots. Which the wiz1 doesn't have.
Page 113: "Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal."
Does the Wiz1 have access to spell slots above level 1? No. Therefore, he can't use metamagic feats if the spell would then use a slot above level 1.
It can't be any more clear unless you want the 576-page rulebook to be a 1000-page rulebook.
The rule is:
1) Spellcasting classes give spells according to the listing in the table, with the more powerful slots becoming available at higher levels. (see individual class entries describing the Spells class ability)
2) High ability scores can give you bonus spell slots, but you can only access them if you're high enough level to be able to cast spells of that level anyway. (see page 16)
3) Metamagic feats make spells use higher-level slots than their original level. (see page 113)
Rule 1 prevents a Wiz1 from casting 9th-level spells; the Wizard table says he has no 9th-level spell slots.
Rule 2 prevents a Wiz1 with Int28 from casting 9th-level spells; the text says he only can use 9th-level spell slots if he could actually cast 9th-level spells by being a high-level wizard.
Rule 3 prevents a Wiz1 from casting a silent, stilled, maximized, quickened magic missile, because such a spell use a 9th-level spell slot, and Rule 1 and Rule 2 have already established that this Wiz1 has no 9th-level spell slots.
QED.
Rule 2 prevents a Wiz1 with Int28 from casting 9th-level spells; the text says he only can use 9th-level spell slots if he could actually cast 9th-level spells by being a high-level wizard.
It's clear that's what the rules mean, but I disagree that that's what the rules actually say.
And since I don't care, other than to point out I understand why particularly nitpicky sorts would latch onto this, I'll stop here.
The only folks who this is not clear to at this point are the ones trying to abuse something.
It's simple: DO I get 2-9th level spell slots at level 1? If no then you do not gain extra slots for what you do not have
There is nothing to clear up.
Rule 2 prevents a Wiz1 with Int28 from casting 9th-level spells; the text says he only can use 9th-level spell slots if he could actually cast 9th-level spells by being a high-level wizard.It's clear that's what the rules mean, but I disagree that that's what the rules actually say.
And since I don't care, other than to point out I understand why particularly nitpicky sorts would latch onto this, I'll stop here.
Good idea, William. All I got for my efforts here were rules quoted that don't address the issue directly, only implied, and ad hominem attacks as to my motives.
I am running a game, I have no need to manipulate rules since I can houserule anything I don't like in the book. I stand by the intent of the rules in the book and don't think a first level caster should have access to higher level spell slots due to a high caster stat. I always have. Accusing me of wanting to cheat the system is counterproductive and only serves to detract from the facts presented.
I only wish this could have been a productive discussion instead of a rabid defense of ego that it seemed to turn into. Seeing as how the facts as presented aren't actually being addressed by those who feel the need to argue, I'll end here.
No one got rabid. People explained and in great detail showed you what you asked.
Don't get upset when folks get tired of people's loophole hunting, trying to twist and abuse wording. There was no loophole to explore here in this case. We just don't know how many times we have to point out the same thing.
The wording is clear, unless you choose to ignore it. There is simply no need to clear anything up that you would understand if you read the parts relevant to running a spell caster. Rules should not replace thinking, and if your whole question can be put into a problem a first grader could figure out, then man it does not need to be clearer.
Not to offend , but that is how it is.
Edit: By you, I mean someone claiming to not understand, not necessarily a poster in this thread
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Yes I know. But again I ask... where exactly is this concretely written in the RAW?
On page 218 of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook it states under the heading Arcane Spells...Spell Slots: "A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels".
As per RAW each Metamagic feat description except Heighten uses higher level slots without changing the spell level.
So if you are a level 17 Wizard with a reduced Int. score of no less than 11 you still have access to all spell slots as per your level and can cast 1st level spells with or without Metamagic feats applied (Except Heighten). However, you as a Wizard would still need to memorize spells enhanced with Metamagic feats at spell preperation.
The posters have their answers already, and they have been pointed to the rules. SRK(developer) was kind enough to break things down for them.
Can this thread not die? I guess by posting I am not helping things. :)
Can this thread not die? I guess by posting I am not helping things. :)the Thread died two pages ago, but no one's clarified if it can still take posts as a dead thread :-)
Lol, you simply win. I have no clue what you'll do with it but the thread is yours :0
well technical it was about undead, but your right it does not say dead can't take actions
Hey now, this is MY thread! Can I kill it? I promise not to use a spell slot of a (modified or unmodified) level beyond that indicated by the spell slot tables in the character classes section of the rulebook....
Well yeah you can kill it, but the questions is: Can it still take actions after you kill it?
Apparently....
See as it does not say. we will need a few lines stating that you can not take actions, also line detailing what to do while your dead and how long it takes to recover would be helpful, As I have looked and this just is not covered.
QED.
LOL this thread was a good read. . . thanks (:
Is there any use for a bonus spell slot of a level higher than the highest level of spell castable by a spellcaster (e.g. can you use that bonus slot to, say, extend (metamagic) your highest level castable spell)?This is an interesting topic. While I can't see allowing a level 2 wizard to extend a mage armor for 4 hour duration, I could see allowing him a bonus slot 0+1 from high int to prep a first level spell not metamagic'd in a 2nd level slot. This could help casters at low level with very few spells per day. If a 18 Int Wizard at level 1 had his 1 from class + 1 from specialty + 4 from int(1 of 1,2,3,&4 level spells) that would definately give him more playability at low levels
Would that make them overpowered? I don't think so. They struggle most at low level, and by 10th level this bonus would work itself out of the game.
This is an interesting idea.. I never considered it before, I might actually allow this in my campaign.
basically 'average joe' wizard lvl 1 int 17 human gets to use his bonus spells for 1st, 2nd and 3rd level to use for his 1st lvl slots so he'd start with 4 prepared spells instead of 2 prepared spells.
nice, I'll bring it up next time my player group comes together.