In the Star Wars Saga RPG, everything is retroactive friendly. If you up your Constitution, you get new hit points; if you up your Intelligence, you get new trained skills; if you up your Wisdom, you get more Force powers; etc.
I'm hoping Pathfinder works similarly. Is that the case?
I always hated having to calculate skill point totals for Intelligence increases on my D&D v3.5 wizards all the while knowing that the missed levels prior to the increase were forever lost. I never want to go back to that if I can avoid it.
If I permanently increase my Intelligence on my wizard or other character, does he gain skill ranks for his class levels/HD prior to the increase as well?
How does one handle temporary increases such as a headband of intellect? Such things don't exist in Saga, which makes making things retroactive incredibly easy.
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In the Star Wars Saga RPG, everything is retroactive friendly. If you up your Constitution, you get new hit points; if you up your Intelligence, you get new trained skills; if you up your Wisdom, you get more Force powers; etc.
I'm hoping Pathfinder works similarly. Is that the case?
I always hated having to calculate skill point totals for Intelligence increases on my D&D v3.5 wizards all the while knowing that the missed levels prior to the increase were forever lost. I never want to go back to that if I can avoid it.
In pathfinder everything is retroactive. Even the +int items give you skills (though they are specific skills and locked at == HD).
This would be a ruling for your DM of course, but I don't think this works with skill ranks and hp. My understanding is that levels are a journey and ability bonuses are not retroactive.
There is no listed provision, that I have seen, for increased skill points from previous levels. That's usually a strong argument for starting with a high intelligence or constitution and building the physical abilities with time.
Sigurd
Actually backwards compatibility is WAY better in pathfinder rpg than saga. Saga is a different game, more like 4ed.
Wow. Very different answers.
Maybe providing a source for your argument might help?
Hayden, I'm not referring to backwards compatibility with other systems. :P
Director of Brand Strategy
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I can't find anything about retroactive skill points, though.
This was definitely clarified on the (now defunct) boards set up for GenCon GMs to become acquainted with the new rules before running PFS games. Paizo staff have said in numerous places that I can't find by searching that skill points are retroactive because they also hated calculating skill points using the 3.5 system for all their NPCs. See here for the headband of vast intelligence and how skill points work with them.
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This would be a ruling for your DM of course, but I don't think this works with skill ranks and hp. My understanding is that levels are a journey and ability bonuses are not retroactive.
There is no listed provision, that I have seen, for increased skill points from previous levels. That's usually a strong argument for starting with a high intelligence or constitution and building the physical abilities with time.
Sigurd
Skill ranks haven't ever worked that way, but an increase in your CON has always increased your HP retroactively, since 3.0 (at least to my knowledge)
Magic headbands that provide Int provide Skill Points to a set skill (If you have it already - too bad).
As for Raising your Int by normal stat raises - I don't think that gives retroactive skill points.
This would be a ruling for your DM of course, but I don't think this works with skill ranks and hp. My understanding is that levels are a journey and ability bonuses are not retroactive.
There is no listed provision, that I have seen, for increased skill points from previous levels. That's usually a strong argument for starting with a high intelligence or constitution and building the physical abilities with time.
Sigurd
Constitution by RAW does increase retroactively in the description of Constitution. That is also why ability damage lowers your HP maximum, and spells increasing it give bonuses.
Inteligence it does not say. Personally I am of the oppinion that it should, for book-keeping sake mostly, but I believe by RAW it does not.
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To be clear: the post is essentially about what happens when a character increases his Con, Int, or other stat that provides a bonus to something calculated at each level, like hit points and skills.
It is not a debate about how compatible pathfinder is with 3.5 (the answer, incidentally, is "kinda" but whether or not there needs to be tweaking depends on the specific example. But that's another topic entirely, and a rather contentious one).
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Here is an earlier discussion on the issue.
I can't quote the clarification by Jason Bulmahn that I remember because the GM board was removed after GenCon (and only GMs could see it anyway). But INT increases provide retroactive skill points. I promise.
"Well, I'm smarter now than when I was 5 years ago since I got to add 10 points to my Intelligence from a +5 tome and 5 stat bumps... so I now get to retroactively have learned additional things than what I originally learned. Isn't time travel awesome"?
I think that's exactly why skill points were never retroactive imho. It's not that hard to break down your skill points by what your Int bonus was each level if you're making a higher level character.
Here is an earlier discussion on the issue.
I can't quote the clarification by Jason Bulmahn that I remember because the GM board was removed after GenCon (and only GMs could see it anyway). But INT increases provide retroactive skill points. I promise.
I know we're not official Paizo folks, but I can confirm y8mh's statement. This has been raised on the board a dozen times, and I've seen both Jason and James confirm Int increases provide retroactive skill points. It's easier for the game, basically--total bonus skill points always equals [permanent] Int mod times character level. And as noted earlier, Int-boosting headbands grant ranks in specific skills. Trust us. This is true.
Thanks MIB & Y8MH. Your links answered my question pretty well. Should I assume other aspects of the game are as retroactive friendly?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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"Well, I'm smarter now than when I was 5 years ago since I got to add 10 points to my Intelligence from a +5 tome and 5 stat bumps... so I now get to retroactively have learned additional things than what I originally learned. Isn't time travel awesome"?
I think that's exactly why skill points were never retroactive imho. It's not that hard to break down your skill points by what your Int bonus was each level if you're making a higher level character.
Your character doesn't get to retroactively learn things, as with time travel. You don't go back into your character's past and insist that he "knew" those skills last month when he was trying to pick that lock. Nobody is suggesting that, Dork Lord.
But increasing your 8th-Level character's Intelligence, and thereby his Intelligence modifier, does provide -among other things- a sudden deluge of skill ranks (8 new ranks, as well as those for whatever class you're advancing in, and bonus points for race or favored class)and a bonus language.
Jason has stated his design reasons for this: he wanted to be able to stat up a high-level character without worrying which attributes were boosted at which levels.
If one takes the time to backwards engineer statblocks from any of the PFRPG adventures, you will find that they have received retroactive skill points.
I don't know how we'd know that, yoda8myhead, because those Intelligence scores might have started out at their present values. Which is the point: we don't need to know that.
It just rubs me the wrong way from an in game standpoint... but if it works that way officially, who am I to question it?
Page 555 of the Pathfinder Core: "Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
Since people weren't certain where it was, I figured I'd pull it up again. Hope that helps.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It just rubs me the wrong way from an in game standpoint... but if it works that way officially, who am I to question it?
Why, Dork Lord? Your character gets smarter, so is able to understand more things. I'm not particularly fond of the "ding! I now speak Dwarf!", but then, I've never been a fan of the "ding! I've decided to take my next level as Wizard, and I suddenly know how to cast spells from my .. well, would you look at that? .. brand new spellbook!"
That's usually a strong argument for starting with a high intelligence or constitution and building the physical abilities with time."If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly." Page 16 of your PFGCR or here, whichever you prefer.
I can't find anything about retroactive skill points, though.
There's some suggestive language in the Glossary under "Ability Score Bonuses":
"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."
EDIT: D'oh! Ninja'ed by eight minutes; how did that happen?
It just rubs me the wrong way from an in game standpoint... but if it works that way officially, who am I to question it?Why, Dork Lord? Your character gets smarter, so is able to understand more things. I'm not particularly fond of the "ding! I now speak Dwarf!", but then, I've never been a fan of the "ding! I've decided to take my next level as Wizard, and I suddenly know how to cast spells from my .. well, would you look at that? .. brand new spellbook!"
Thats fine for mechanics, but in the games I run, I expect characters to do SOME roleplaying to show how they gained skills and such.
A character who wanted to add Dwarf when his INT went up would have to find somewhere to learn it first. (Which might be as simeple as hanging out with a dwarf PC...)
For example, in my game I have 2 halfelf rogue characters that both switched classes when they got to 2nd level. Kitt took Fighter and Jakk took Spellblade.
Kitt picked up a new language, but he had to pick one he'd been exposed to (not too difficult) and he actually spent time at night practicing with his weapons as a rogue to represent his "training" as a fighter.
Jakk has been hanging out with the party wizard (even for a short time)so that the two of them can help him "learn to control his wild magical energies"... in other words, learn spells.
It isn;t much, but it gives the characters some sort of background and has actually led to some interesting RP encounters...
As for the retro-INT skill question. Even before PF, I always made it retrograde. Makes sense, as you get smarter, you learn to be better at things...the new skill points represent all of hte time you spent learning to hone your intellegence over the last few levels...
It just rubs me the wrong way from an in game standpoint... but if it works that way officially, who am I to question it?
Think of it this way, then. Your character hits 8th level and ups his Int with the bonus stat point and gets some retroactive skill points for either new skills or increases in skill ranks for skills he already has. But what caused his Int to go up? Why, the studying of the skills he put the new points into, of course. And if you want to be picky, just make sure anyone who is planning on doing this at 4th, 8th, etc level, that they pick out in advance where the extra points will go to properly represent the studying and training that is going on.
I have seen game systems that require you to choose in advance what skills or abilities will be received upon leveling up for just this reason. How can you suddenly get something new like that if you have not been practicing with it first?
Love your name Dork Lord!
Do you actually gain new languages too when donning an Intelligence--increasing item? I hadn't thought of that.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Yes, ravingdork. And, like the skills in which you gain ranks, the languages are hardwired into the item.
So a headband of intelligence +4 might have "Craft: Brewing", "Use Magic Device", "Undercommon" and "Ancient Thassalonian" attached to it.
While it's not RAW, I treat the "hardwired" nature of these bonuses as unique per wearer. When smarter, you know how to disable traps, but when you don't wear the headband, you "forget" how to do so. But you remember once your mental capacity increases again. It seems too weird to have a stat boosting item have specific skills that are the same for everyone, and no fun if it's found treasure that you only get a partial bonus from, so I handle it this way. YMMV.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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While it's not RAW, I treat the "hardwired" nature of these bonuses as unique per wearer. .. It seems too weird to have a stat boosting item have specific skills that are the same for everyone, and no fun if it's found treasure that you only get a partial bonus from, so I handle it this way. YMMV.
Y8mh, I think the hard-wiring was intended to prevent a party with a day of downtime to swap headbands and thereby cherry-pick skills the characters might need in their current situation.
But, as you say, mileage.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Y8mh, I think the hard-wiring was intended to prevent a party with a day of downtime to swap headbands and thereby cherry-pick skills the characters might need in their current situation.
While it's not RAW, I treat the "hardwired" nature of these bonuses as unique per wearer. .. It seems too weird to have a stat boosting item have specific skills that are the same for everyone, and no fun if it's found treasure that you only get a partial bonus from, so I handle it this way. YMMV.
I guess I don't see that as a problem. As long as there's just one person getting bonuses from one headband, it's not that big a deal to me. If it means the players can feel awesome and do memorable stuff, then that's great. And in a four person party, one headband is only going to offer four different skills and four languages. Some party roles just won't make sense to wear it anyway. I can't think of a fighter who would be better served with a +2 INT than a wizard, who would also get a higher save DC and spells per day.
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"Well, I'm smarter now than when I was 5 years ago since I got to add 10 points to my Intelligence from a +5 tome and 5 stat bumps... so I now get to retroactively have learned additional things than what I originally learned. Isn't time travel awesome"?
I think that's exactly why skill points were never retroactive imho. It's not that hard to break down your skill points by what your Int bonus was each level if you're making a higher level character.
The problem with this point of view is it punishes players for choosing to raise their int after character creation instead of just putting a higher ability score in at level one.
If a level 1 character has a 13 and a 14, with one in Ability Score X and the other in Ability Score Y, and at some point later on he raises the 13 to a 14, there should be no difference in his final stat block - it shouldn't matter which one he raised.
Alternatively, if it DOES matter, it should matter equally for every ability score.
It needlessly punishes players for not putting an even score in intelligence at character creation, and it makes the character creation process MORE COMPLICATED at higher levels. Not a whole lot more complicated, I'll admit, but when it takes an average player 2-3 hours to build up a 12 or 15th level character, every bit counts.
The rules should try to be realistic, but it is more important that they be fun, fair, and simple, where possible.
It just rubs me the wrong way from an in game standpoint... but if it works that way officially, who am I to question it?Why, Dork Lord? Your character gets smarter, so is able to understand more things. I'm not particularly fond of the "ding! I now speak Dwarf!", but then, I've never been a fan of the "ding! I've decided to take my next level as Wizard, and I suddenly know how to cast spells from my .. well, would you look at that? .. brand new spellbook!"
Which was why I like 1st ed requiring you to spend gold and time training with someone to level up. The XP alone did not level you. You also had to spend time to learn a new language. I believe it was something - your int score in months/weeks. I don't have my books with me right now.
I am sure if you wanted that aspect back you could certainly add it, and I tend to agree that ooh I hit level 8 and instantly gained the ability to speak Elvish, picked up a number of skills/increased my ability in a number of skills, and learned two new spells I never knew before....boy who knew killing a stone giant could be so enlightening.
In light of those rules, I'd allow retrograde skill points for regular attribute increases and inherent bonuses. I would not allow it for enhancement bonuses at all because of the natural inclination of these items to be built with the ability to grant skills. Trying to get both the skills granted by the item AND additional ranks from having a permanent int increase is pure twinkology.
What do the ability increasing items mean when they say "treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn?" It seems to imply that the bonus becomes permanent if you wear it long enough. If that's the case, what's to keep the party from swapping a single headband so they all get the increase?
I just don't understand why that line even exists on most of these items...
Possibly this may explain it. You will need to scroll down to the Headband of Vast Intellect for an explanation.
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While it's not RAW, I treat the "hardwired" nature of these bonuses as unique per wearer. When smarter, you know how to disable traps, but when you don't wear the headband, you "forget" how to do so. But you remember once your mental capacity increases again. It seems too weird to have a stat boosting item have specific skills that are the same for everyone, and no fun if it's found treasure that you only get a partial bonus from, so I handle it this way. YMMV.
I like this, and am going to use it myself. 8^)
It just rubs me the wrong way from an in game standpoint... but if it works that way officially, who am I to question it?Why, Dork Lord? Your character gets smarter, so is able to understand more things. I'm not particularly fond of the "ding! I now speak Dwarf!", but then, I've never been a fan of the "ding! I've decided to take my next level as Wizard, and I suddenly know how to cast spells from my .. well, would you look at that? .. brand new spellbook!"Thats fine for mechanics, but in the games I run, I expect characters to do SOME roleplaying to show how they gained skills and such.
A character who wanted to add Dwarf when his INT went up would have to find somewhere to learn it first. (Which might be as simeple as hanging out with a dwarf PC...)
For example, in my game I have 2 halfelf rogue characters that both switched classes when they got to 2nd level. Kitt took Fighter and Jakk took Spellblade.
Kitt picked up a new language, but he had to pick one he'd been exposed to (not too difficult) and he actually spent time at night practicing with his weapons as a rogue to represent his "training" as a fighter.
Jakk has been hanging out with the party wizard (even for a short time)so that the two of them can help him "learn to control his wild magical energies"... in other words, learn spells.
It isn;t much, but it gives the characters some sort of background and has actually led to some interesting RP encounters...
As for the retro-INT skill question. Even before PF, I always made it retrograde. Makes sense, as you get smarter, you learn to be better at things...the new skill points represent all of hte time you spent learning to hone your intellegence over the last few levels...
1) I don't think it was ever meant to be a 'ding' thing. The characters are assumed to be practicing whatever skills they gain at the next level in any 'downtime' or even during the adventure (i.e. they use stealth to sneak, etc.). This includes class abilities, spells, spell levels, etc. As for spells 'appearing' in the spellbook, they puzzle them out in their spare time (studying) and doodling in their book until the final form gels.
2) It makes perfect sense for INT boosts to boost skills. In the case of magic items, they simply allow the character to put together pieces that they already knew but didn't see how they worked. They might have a hard time adjusting an 'out-of-the-blue' knowledge. I.E. a 1st level PC puts on a headband of INT+2, and takes a skill point in local knowledge: Abyss without ever having read about or seen it. As for level-based increases, they were simply studying at the same time.
The simplest way to do it for PCs would say they can only boost skills they already have, but haven't maxed, or for 'common sense' skills, like stealth, perception, climb, etc.
Which was why I like 1st ed requiring you to spend gold and time training with someone to level up. The XP alone did not level you. You also had to spend time to learn a new language. I believe it was something - your int score in months/weeks. I don't have my books with me right now.
I am sure if you wanted that aspect back you could certainly add it, and I tend to agree that ooh I hit level 8 and instantly gained the ability to speak Elvish, picked up a number of skills/increased my ability in a number of skills, and learned two new spells I never knew before....boy who knew killing a stone giant could be so enlightening.
So what they did earning that XP wouldn't be considered training? The fighter has beat up monsters and npc, the wizard zapped the same, the cleric was healing his allies and zapping the baddies, the rogue picking a lock that was ALMOST to tough for him to pick... That is much better training that paying crusty ol Bob to stand there and swing an axe at you and you swinging your sword at him.
As for learing skills and languages, people are exposed to all sorts of things in thier life that they don't realize they have been exposed to, until they suddenly have need for it. Sure it might be a big stretch for Joe the Fighter suddenly learning Elven, but then again, an adventurere is suppose to be extraordinary.
As for the spells, for Wizards an thier ilk, they are constantly drumming up spells in thier head, studying and the like; thats how they get thier 2 spells a level (it kinda says that in the description), for Sorcerers and thier ilk, is just kinda pops in thier head casue its natural and innate to them. Most divine casters they simply gain access to a WHOLE new level of spell every once in a while.
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Which was why I like 1st ed requiring you to spend gold and time training with someone to level up. The XP alone did not level you. You also had to spend time to learn a new language. I believe it was something - your int score in months/weeks. I don't have my books with me right now.
I am sure if you wanted that aspect back you could certainly add it, and I tend to agree that ooh I hit level 8 and instantly gained the ability to speak Elvish, picked up a number of skills/increased my ability in a number of skills, and learned two new spells I never knew before....boy who knew killing a stone giant could be so enlightening.
So what they did earning that XP wouldn't be considered training? The fighter has beat up monsters and npc, the wizard zapped the same, the cleric was healing his allies and zapping the baddies, the rogue picking a lock that was ALMOST to tough for him to pick... That is much better training that paying crusty ol Bob to stand there and swing an axe at you and you swinging your sword at him.
As for learing skills and languages, people are exposed to all sorts of things in thier life that they don't realize they have been exposed to, until they suddenly have need for it. Sure it might be a big stretch for Joe the Fighter suddenly learning Elven, but then again, an adventurere is suppose to be extraordinary.
As for the spells, for Wizards an thier ilk, they are constantly drumming up spells in thier head, studying and the like; thats how they get thier 2 spells a level (it kinda says that in the description), for Sorcerers and thier ilk, is just kinda pops in thier head casue its natural and innate to them. Most divine casters they simply gain access to a WHOLE new level of spell every once in a while.
Normally I'd agree with this wholeheartedly, but I've had too many campaigns where adventurers are worn thin over a period of one day, but manage to gain all or most of a level in that day alone. I've even seen up to 6 levels gained in one in-game day because of a two-man team taking out opponents in a creative fashion (though that's VERY MUCH the exception).
I actually tried out doing "training checks" the last time I was DM, though I made them a bit too harsh. This campaign the DM (not me) took that idea except it was a flat week of training no matter what. So far its worked out (though I'd make it a *teensy* bit harder).
Anything involving the changes Power Attack tree of feats and similarly changed feats might take a little time to change to Pathfinder, especially the frenzied berzerker abilties based on them.
Oh man, Frenzied Berserkers were -broken-.
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Oh man, Frenzied Berserkers were -broken-.
Yeah, but using a shaped ice wall to surround a frenzied berserker after it's already reached negatives, forcing them to ride out their time limit... Just priceless.
(FYI: We positioned the wall just outside their reach so they couldn't auto-disrupt it, and we did the full calculations for how much HP worth of ice the poor bastard had to hack through. Died just as he got through.)
Oh man, Frenzied Berserkers were -broken-.Yeah, but using a shaped ice wall to surround a frenzied berserker after it's already reached negatives, forcing them to ride out their time limit... Just priceless.
(FYI: We positioned the wall just outside their reach so they couldn't auto-disrupt it, and we did the full calculations for how much HP worth of ice the poor bastard had to hack through. Died just as he got through.)
I'm surprised, a power-attacking Frenzied Berserker can do a crap-load of damage.
We would use Otilukes Resiliant Sphere. He got a Ref save (which is a lousy save for FB's, usually made by multiclassing 2-3 poor Ref save classes), and once inside he couldn't get out with any amount of bashing.
Also, no reason to wait for him to be negative HP. Soon as he frenzies, encase him until the Frenzy ends, then just finish off the poor exhausted fellow.
I'm surprised, a power-attacking Frenzied Berserker can do a crap-load of damage.Oh man, Frenzied Berserkers were -broken-.Yeah, but using a shaped ice wall to surround a frenzied berserker after it's already reached negatives, forcing them to ride out their time limit... Just priceless.
(FYI: We positioned the wall just outside their reach so they couldn't auto-disrupt it, and we did the full calculations for how much HP worth of ice the poor bastard had to hack through. Died just as he got through.)
Especially when you add in the Leap Strike and Leap Attack Feats.
Sorry for the slight derail of the thead with the Frenzied Berzerker, but they were not as bad as they seem, when you consider the fact that they take nonlethal damage every round, and the diehard and deathless frenzy actuly didn't help them agisnt nonlethal! All the feat and ability talk about is bgeing taken to negative X damage, so a Frenzied berzerker could frenzy himself into unconsciousness!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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We seem to have tangented off on the Frenzied Berserker. Oh, what fun. Michael Donais and the rest of the development team must have giggled themselves sick when they put text into the Complete Warrior implying that the Frenzied Berserker might be a suitable prestige class for a PC.
"In addition, if [the Frenzied Berserker] takes damage from an attack, spell, trap, or any other source, she automatically enters a frenzy at the start of her next action, as long as she still has at least one daily use of the ability left. To avoid entering a frenzy in response to a provoking event, the character must make a successful Will save (DC = 10 + points of damage taken since her last action) at the start of her next turn. ... During a frenzy, the Frenzied Berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health."
Hilarious in a hailstorm.