I know this is using feats from the PHBII, but my group allows it so I'm curious. If you had two rogues* with Vexing Flanker, Adaptable Flanker, Outflank, and Paired Opportunists. They could stand side by side in front of a medium sized creature and flank it. Then if one of them get's a critical they would both get an attack of opportunity. Correct?
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[ ] [ ] [ ]
[f] [X] [f]
[ ] [r] [r]
X - target
r - rogue
f - the square they use for flanking purposes via Adaptable Flanker
Rogue 1 Crits
Rogue 2 get's an AoO from Outflank
Rogue 1 get's an AoO from Paired Opportunist
*not limited to rogues
Sorry for the bump, but I'm intrigued about opinions for these new feats.
Yes, it would work, which is ridiculous. As a DM, this trick would only get pulled once before horribly painful fiery death rained down upon the characters (and possibly the players as well).
If the player is going to put 4 feats into it for a crit that may never happen I would let him have him fun. If you going to take it this far then you may as well take telling blow. It's another feat in PHB 2.
If the player is going to put 4 feats into it for a crit that may never happen I would let him have him fun. If you going to take it this far then you may as well take telling blow. It's another feat in PHB 2.
2 players.
Sorry for the bump, but I'm intrigued about opinions for these new feats.
I think its just good tactics, and they did spend a good number of feats to make it work. The deciding factor however should be the power level of your game, and how good you are at reacting/adjusting to a player's tactics.
Where did Outflank, and Paired Opportunists come from? Are they in the PHB 2 also?
Sorry for the bump, but I'm intrigued about opinions for these new feats.I think its just good tactics, and they did spend a good number of feats to make it work. The deciding factor however should be the power level of your game, and how good you are at reacting/adjusting to a player's tactics.
Where did Outflank, and Paired Opportunists come from? Are they in the PHB 2 also.
They're both from the new Tactical feats at the end of the Cavalier/Oracle playtest PDF...
They're the new tactical feats which is why I wanted to bring them up here.
Using these 4 feats I made 2 halfling rogues with a pair of keen kukris who at level ten would put about about 700 damage on a surprised round. At level 11, they would almost be guaranteed to go first in initiative with the new feat that let's you and your partner use whoever rolls the higher initiative.
My friend and I nicknamed them "Will it Blend"
Using these 4 feats I made 2 halfling rogues with a pair of keen kukris who at level ten would put about about 700 damage on a surprised round.
That seems ...... extremely unlikely. 5d6 damage from sneak attack is only 30 even at maximum. That'd be ~23 maximum damage hits in a single round.
Considering that those two level 10 rogues are going to get 10 attacks in a single round maximum between them (improved TWF + haste which they really shouldn't have in a surprise round), and 4 of those 10 are almost certain to miss, that leaves 17 attacks of opportunity that must hit. The absolute most AoOs you could even get at level 10 is 18 between two characters (20 dex, +2 levels, +6 item with Combat Reflexes, times two), of which 95% would need to connect, not to mention that you'd need 9 confirmed crits in these 23 attacks, which is a 40% crit rate.
And that's assuming that all sneak attacks deal maximum damage. Using the average of 5d6, you'd need 40 hits.
BTW, you're also using an awful lot of feats for that. Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Adaptable Flanker, Vexing Flanker, Lookout (to get a full attack in the surprise round), Outflank, and Paired Opportunists. That's 9 feats in 10 levels ... for a rogue. Not possible.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call "bull" on 700 damage in a surprise round.
Whoops, forgot that Lookout was the one that let you take the full action on the surprise round. The other feats are certainly attainable though.
1 TWF
2 Talent; Combat Trick (Combat Reflexes)
3 Paired Opportunist
4 Talent:Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
5 Adaptable Flanker
6 Talent: Wpn Training (Weapon Focus)
7 Vexing Flanker
8 Talent: Fast Stealth
9 I:TWF
10 Talent: Feat (Outflank)
Dex
28
18 + 2 racial + 2 level + 6 belt
9 AoO's
BAB
+7 / +2
Full Round Attack
+19 / +19 / +13 / +13
Full Round Attack (w/ Haste and flanking)
+24 / +24 / +24 / +18 / +18
Attack of Opportunity (w/ Haste and flanking)
+28
7(BAB) +1 (size) +1(Wpn Foc) +1(weapon) +1(haste) +4(Paired Opportunist) +4(flanking) + 9(Dex)
+1 keen kukri
1d3 + 2 (Str) + 5d6 (sneak attack) + 1 (enhancement)
Crit 15-20
Maximum Damage of 1148
I might have remembered 700 for average damage at level 20 or something, I made these guys at a few different levels and while at work last week, lol. What they can do at level 10 though is nothing to sneeze at especially when every crit generates two more sneak attacks that are almost promised to hit. Course there is the downside it only works on medium-sized creatures, which is a pretty big one. It only get's more fun when you start adding in the other rogue talents and feats like Lookout or Improved Critical.
Dex
28
18 + 2 racial + 2 level + 6 belt
How are are affording a +6 belt at level 10?
I know its within the wealth guideslines, but it takes up so much wealth its a stretch to actually get it in a game.
+1 keen kukri
1d3 + 2 (Str) + 5d6 (sneak attack) + 1 (enhancement)
Crit 15-20Maximum Damage of 1148
Errr... you do realize that sneak attack damage isn't affected by critical hits, yes? A crit turns your damage code from 1d3+3+5d6 to 2d3+6+5d6. With 14 attacks in a round, the maximum damage possible with that damage code is 588. The expected damage is ... rather lower:
Average damage non-crit: 22.5
Average damage crit: 27.5
Expected AC of a CR 12 monster (which is a reasonable challenge for a party of 4 level 10 PCs): 27
Correct flanking to-hit roll: +23/+23/+23/+18/+18
Correct AoO to-hit roll: +27
Chance to hit on attack sequence: 85%/85%/85%/60%/60%
Chance to threaten a crit on attack sequence: 30%/30%/30%/30%/30%
Total crit chance on attack sequence: 25.5%/25.5%/25.5%/18%/18%
Chance to hit but not crit on attack sequence: 59.5%/59.5%/59.5%/42%/42%
Chance to hit on AoO: 95%
Chance to threaten a crit on AoO: 30%
Total crit chance on AoO: 28.5%
Chance to hit but not crit on AoO: 66.5%
Alright, now we can actually do the math. First, the attack sequence:
(3*0.595*22.5)+(3*0.255*27.5)+(2*0.42*22.5)+(2*0.18*27.5) = 76.175 expected damage * 2 halflings = 152.35 damage
and
(3*0.255)+(2*0.18) = 1.125 successful critical hits * 2 halflings = 2.25 crits
So now each halfling gets 2 AoOs (can't make a partial attack, but we'll carry over the .25):
(2*0.665*22.5)+(2*0.285*27.5) = 45.6 expected damage * 2 halflings = 91.2 damage
and
(2*0.285) = 0.57 successful critical hits * 2 halflings + 0.25 carried over = 1.39 crits
One more AoO from each, carrying over the 0.39:
(0.665*22.5)+(0.285*27.5)*2 = 45.6 expected damage
and
(2*0.285) = 0.57 successful critical hits + 0.39 = 0.96 crits
OK, no more full crits left, so no more AoOs.
How are are affording a +6 belt at level 10?
A little friend of mine called "best case scenario." AKA liquidate your assists and have the party wizard craft it.
Really though it would work fine with a +4 belt, you'd just lose +1 to hit, and odds are you'd never run out of AoO's with that many.
+1 keen kukri
1d3 + 2 (Str) + 5d6 (sneak attack) + 1 (enhancement)
Crit 15-20Maximum Damage of 1148
Errr... you do realize that sneak attack damage isn't affected by critical hits, yes? A crit turns your damage code from 1d3+3+5d6 to 2d3+6+5d6. With 14 attacks in a round, the maximum damage possible with that damage code is 588. The expected damage is ... rather lower:
** spoiler omitted ** That leaves us with a grand total of 289.15 expected damage divided among two characters, or 144.575 damage each. Not bad, but a far cry from broken, especially...
Here's how I did my maximum damage, and by this I mean you crit and confirm on every hit and roll max damage. Something only a diety could do, but I did say maximum damage.
Each hit would deal 2d3+4+5d6+1, maxed so 6+4+30+1 = 41
10 attacks between the two, generating 20 AoO's (can only use 18 of those with dex mod of +9) so 28 attacks x 41
Remember each time you crit, your partner get's an AoO from Outflank, and you get a AoO from Paired Opportunist.
28x41=1148
Also I never said it was broke, or the greatest damages ever. Just an interesting scenario with these new feats to mull over.