While I like almost all the other races and how they were updated in Pathfinder, Half-Orcs bug me a lot. I want to get them back to the stereotype they had in earlier versions and I was thinking about making these changes to them:
-Instead of the +2 to a single stat they'd get +2 to Strength and Constitution and a -2 to Intelligence.
-Remove their automatic proficiency in Falchions and Greataxes.
This makes them incredibly potent as the martial classes but still not so that they overshadow every other race at it. They'd get 2 fewer skill points than a human at any class, for example. I did feel a bit bad about giving them a +2 to Constitution though, because that has always been the Dwarf's thing. Because of that, I was thinking about giving Dwarves Toughness as a bonus feat.
Does this all sound really overpowered? Should I add a -2 Charisma on top of the other ability score modifiers the Half-Orcs get?
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Ive thought about the whole half elf half dwarf thing too. And I agree that Half orc wizards with +2 int is bad for flavour. But my solution in our campaign was to say half orcs get +2 to any physical stat and half elves get +2 to any mental stat.
While I like almost all the other races and how they were updated in Pathfinder, Half-Orcs bug me a lot. I want to get them back to the stereotype they had in earlier versions and I was thinking about making these changes to them:
-Instead of the +2 to a single stat they'd get +2 to Strength and Constitution and a -2 to Intelligence.
-Remove their automatic proficiency in Falchions and Greataxes.This makes them incredibly potent as the martial classes but still not so that they overshadow every other race at it. They'd get 2 fewer skill points than a human at any class, for example. I did feel a bit bad about giving them a +2 to Constitution though, because that has always been the Dwarf's thing. Because of that, I was thinking about giving Dwarves Toughness as a bonus feat.
Does this all sound really overpowered? Should I add a -2 Charisma on top of the other ability score modifiers the Half-Orcs get?
There indeed have been many "fixing the half-orc" threads here... and rightfully so. Giving them a floating +2 really disappointed me. This really took away from the uniqueness of playing a half-orc. The option you have given is certainly balanced. Half-orcs are generally not noted for their vast intelligence, their mastery over the arcane arts, or for their great and powerful wizards, so the Int penalty seems reasonable. (Currently, under the PFRPG rules, half-orcs are one of the better choices for wizards -- and that's just wrong :)
I'm not even sure taking away the weapon proficiencies are needed, however I guess these proficiencies are based on orcs whom have grown up with orcsish influence. Orcs typically don't covet or specialize in any one weapon -- they usually grab the sharpest looking thing on the battlefield and start using it -- usually the bigger the blade or head, the more desirable the weapon. So accordingly, the loss of these weapon proficiencies is more in line with the half-orcs's origin.
But my solution in our campaign was to say half orcs get +2 to any physical stat and half elves get +2 to any mental stat.
Just wanted to chime in and say that I really like this idea!
I'd say for Half-Elves you could include Dexterity in there.
But hey, that's the problem.
There are many different types of elves.
Personally, I think perhaps the orc change might be good, but I'd leave the Half-Elf as is.
For weapon profs.. Go with Weapon Groups, modified of course.
Farmers were capable of using a f&!~-ton >.>
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I really don't think the half-orc needs to be changed. +2 to two physical stats is too overpowered. All the core races either get a floating +2 to choice or a +2 to both a physical and mental stat and then receive a penalty in either the physical or metal category with the majority getting penalized in the physical area.
Half-Orcs can be great wizards as long as you just don't picture them in robes with pointy hats. :)
Think of half-orc wizards as more of having a witch doctor/shaman background or even being similar to Sith from the Star Wars universer where there is a master and an apprentice. I could easily see a half-orc learning fell necromancy from his master and then carrying on the tradition when nhis master dies or trying to wrest power from his master in an epic arcane duel!
I don't think they need to be changed, but if you do:
Does this all sound really overpowered? Should I add a -2 Charisma on top of the other ability score modifiers the Half-Orcs get?
Yes. +2 Str/Con isn't "too much", but with a non-physical penalty it is (i.e. +2 Str/Con, -2 Dex would be alright, but wouldn't work for half-orcs).
I'd suggest an option:
+2 Str/Con, -2 Int/Cha
OR
Floating +2 to one of Str/Dex/Con/Wis.
(and perhaps ditto to half-elves, +2 to Dex/Int/Wis/Cha, if you really care about them matching.)
I really don't think the half-orc needs to be changed. +2 to two physical stats is too overpowered. All the core races either get a floating +2 to choice or a +2 to both a physical and mental stat and then receive a penalty in either the physical or metal category with the majority getting penalized in the physical area.
Half-Orcs can be great wizards as long as you just don't picture them in robes with pointy hats. :)
Well then, do you remember in the Beta, that Half-Orcs got "+2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Wis"?
While that discourages one from being a Wizard, they would make quite acceptable Sorerers.
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Yes, we certainly got a screwing. If you're going to change the Half-orc stats,I would recommend going back to Beta. +2 to two physical stats is very powerful, you'd never see another human Barbarian and likely very few human Fighters.
Also, Majuba's idea:
Floating +2 to one of Str/Dex/Con/Wis.
(and perhaps ditto to half-elves, +2 to Dex/Int/Wis/Cha, if you really care about them matching.)
isn't a bad option.
Let me fix all of you up.
All the standard pathfinder none CR added core races and the like have a standard point system for their attributes.
Each Physical Ability Score modifier (+2) grants a single point. 1 Point
Each Mental Ability Score Modifier (+2) grants half of a point. 0.5 Points
Each Core race tends to have a balance of 0.5 - 1.5 with their modifiers.
Therefore, The Orc has, 0.5 - 1
I decided to go all out and make adjustments to every race I was dissatisfied with. That included halflings and gnomes, which I thought were too similar and half-orcs and half-elves which I thought were overshadowed by humans. Also, I don't think dwarves have enough features to make them worthwhile.
Let's start with the little guys:
Since I bought Pathfinder I thought gnomes and halflings were way too similar. Small races with two out of three racial ability modifiers being the same is too much.
Gnomes: +2 Charisma +2 Intelligence -2 Strength
Gnomes not only regain their status as good wizards (and the best illusionists) but they're also great candidates as any arcane spellcaster as well as the alchemist. They lose out on martial classes, especially as being decent paladins, but I like them better this way.
Halfling +2 Dexterity +2 Wisdom -2 Strength
Halflings become a lot more different from the gnomes with these changes. They make worse sorcerers, paladins and bards (and oracles/summoners for the APG classes) but become a lot better as clerics, druids and rangers (and inquisitors for the APG classes). Instead of being another charismatic small race, they become more alert which I think suits the halflings well. While the gnomes are biased towards arcane spellcasters this in turn makes halflings excellent candidates for the divine ones.
And as for the half-bloods:
Half-Elves: The multitalented racial feature allows half-elves to either choose two favored classes or gain both benefits (+1 hp and +1 skill point) from a single favored class.
I think this speaks for itself. A hefty boost for single-classed half-elves without becoming more powerful than the human.
Half-Orcs: +2 Strength +2 Constitution -2 Intelligence -2 Charisma
Instead of half-orc weapon proficiencies they get a single martial weapon proficiency at first level.
I think I covered this in my original post.
I still haven't found anything good for dwarves and I really am in need of some ideas for them. Help, anyone?
I personally like how everyone is arguing about what a Half-Orc should and shouldn't be able to do based on prejudices inherited from previous D&D editions.
Ive thought about the whole half elf half dwarf thing too. And I agree that Half orc wizards with +2 int is bad for flavour. But my solution in our campaign was to say half orcs get +2 to any physical stat and half elves get +2 to any mental stat.
That makes good sense.
Elling, under your mods, the Gnome comes out to a point total of 0. Not necessarily a bad thing, they just yeah are becoming a pure caster race with your mods pretty much.
I personally like how everyone is arguing about what a Half-Orc should and shouldn't be able to do based on prejudices inherited from previous D&D editions.
I'ma stick with the PF rules.
Elling, under your mods, the Gnome comes out to a point total of 0. Not necessarily a bad thing, they just yeah are becoming a pure caster race with your mods pretty much.
Were they any good as anything else than casters before? I mean, I can't think of a single martial class they were any good at except maybe the paladin, at least when they took the mount.
And prejudice towards half-orcs? Seriously? It's a fictional race, geez.
Ive thought about the whole half elf half dwarf thing too. And I agree that Half orc wizards with +2 int is bad for flavour. But my solution in our campaign was to say half orcs get +2 to any physical stat and half elves get +2 to any mental stat.That makes good sense.
Good sense if you can't dismiss the fact that this isn't D&D 3.x
Gotta love Pathfinder.
I personally like how everyone is arguing about what a Half-Orc should and shouldn't be able to do based on prejudices inherited from previous D&D editions.
Based on Paizo's approach, Half-Orc's are basically humans that are a tiny bit different.
Traditionally, Half-orcs were a pretty even split between humans and orcs -- both in appearance and abilities. This is what people liked about the race.
Stats-wise, now a half-orc really is not much different than a half-elf... and half elves have much better abilities.
I agree that it appears that players (including me) are disappointed with Paizo's theme for the Half-orc... and I will always take every opportunity to point out my disappointment until we see a Half-Orcs of Golarion book that may perhaps offer some improvements for the many areas that players feel are lacking with Paizo's current Half-Orc.
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Personally, I like the floating +2 ability score but I have a different approach to half-orcs. As far back as 1st Edition, I remember reading that orcs can breed with nearly every other humanoid race apart from elves. For my games that means that +2 is a gift from whatever race the half-orc's non-orc parent belonged to (or possibly just a gift from the orc parent.) These are just examples and not the limits to the idea:
STR - hobgoblin, bugbear or the STR just comes from the orc parent.
DEX - halfling, goblin
CON - dwarf, gnome
INT - a particularly bright human or maybe even a tiefling
WIS - dwarf, possibly aasimar
CHA - gnome, halfling
The only thing that really needs changed is how you interpret the Orc Blood ability. It's simple in most case. An orc/goblin is treated as having goblin and orc blood for the purposes of spells, etc. and so on. For the Aasimar and Tiefling, I'd stick with human blood since the outsider nature of those races is tenuous to begin with and they're basically just humans with a touch of grace or profanity (a half-orc with an aasimar or tiefling parent might make a pretty good celestial, abyssal of infernal bloodline sorcerer.) Their size can stay Medium since they'll just get their height from their orc parent. Even a halfling/orc could still be as tall as a dwarf.
The only other thing I might alter are the starting languages, swapping one of the choices out for the language of the parent race.
It really opens up a whole world of possibilities when it comes to playing a half-orc, and it makes perfect sense in regard to orc virility.
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What we ended up doing for the half races was this.
Orc +2 str, -2 int, +2 where ever(other than those two stats)
Half Elf +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 where ever(other than those two stats)
So far for us it is working, we likely will keep tweaking some of their racial abilities as well if we feel this is to powerful.
I personally like how everyone is arguing about what a Half-Orc should and shouldn't be able to do based on prejudices inherited from previous D&D editions.Based on Paizo's approach, Half-Orc's are basically humans that are a tiny bit different.
Traditionally, Half-orcs were a pretty even split between humans and orcs -- both in appearance and abilities. This is what people liked about the race.
Stats-wise, now a half-orc really is not much different than a half-elf... and half elves have much better abilities.
I agree that it appears that players (including me) are disappointed with Paizo's theme for the Half-orc... and I will always take every opportunity to point out my disappointment until we see a Half-Orcs of Golarion book that may perhaps offer some improvements for the many areas that players feel are lacking with Paizo's current Half-Orc.
Oh yes, how i yearn for the days of an unplayable half-orc.
Oh yes, how i yearn for the days of an unplayable half-orc.
Heh. :)
I'm inclined toward a half-orc with +2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int. Mmm.
(Mind you, I'm inclined to make up all my own races ANYWAY, so.)
Oh yes, how i yearn for the days of an unplayable half-orc.I personally like how everyone is arguing about what a Half-Orc should and shouldn't be able to do based on prejudices inherited from previous D&D editions.Based on Paizo's approach, Half-Orc's are basically humans that are a tiny bit different.
Traditionally, Half-orcs were a pretty even split between humans and orcs -- both in appearance and abilities. This is what people liked about the race.
Stats-wise, now a half-orc really is not much different than a half-elf... and half elves have much better abilities.
I agree that it appears that players (including me) are disappointed with Paizo's theme for the Half-orc... and I will always take every opportunity to point out my disappointment until we see a Half-Orcs of Golarion book that may perhaps offer some improvements for the many areas that players feel are lacking with Paizo's current Half-Orc.
Unplayable? What are you talking about? Half-orcs have never been unplayable, nor do I see anything in my post that would indicate that I made such a reference. If you are going to make such a bold statement at least back it up with an example, otherwise it comes off as being ridiculous.
Was the PF Beta orc unplayable? I didn't think so, and that is one of the options that I support.
Oh yes, how i yearn for the days of an unplayable half-orc.I personally like how everyone is arguing about what a Half-Orc should and shouldn't be able to do based on prejudices inherited from previous D&D editions.Based on Paizo's approach, Half-Orc's are basically humans that are a tiny bit different.
Traditionally, Half-orcs were a pretty even split between humans and orcs -- both in appearance and abilities. This is what people liked about the race.
Stats-wise, now a half-orc really is not much different than a half-elf... and half elves have much better abilities.
I agree that it appears that players (including me) are disappointed with Paizo's theme for the Half-orc... and I will always take every opportunity to point out my disappointment until we see a Half-Orcs of Golarion book that may perhaps offer some improvements for the many areas that players feel are lacking with Paizo's current Half-Orc.
Unplayable? What are you talking about? Half-orcs have never been unplayable, nor do I see anything in my post that would indicate that I made such a reference. If you are going to make such a bold statement at least back it up with an example, otherwise it comes off as being ridiculous.
Was the PF Beta orc unplayable? I didn't think so, and that is one of the options that I support.
By "unplayable," I mean "who the hell would play a Half-Orc that wasn't a Barbarian. Maybe a Fighter if you were feeling frisky.
Maybe YOU guys like gimping the hell out of a racial choice because of adopted prejudices from a game that is NOT this game, but I rather have all races more or less equally viable for every class.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hi, Cartigan. Happy New Year.
You speak about "prejudices inherited from a game that is not this game".
Well, I guess. But then, dwarves are short, sturdy people with beards. That's a prejudice inherited from a game that isn't this game (D&D) and from popular culture, the same as with half-orcs.
Jason could have designed a "half-orc" that was 8'-tall, eerily thin, with a chitinous shell and a hankering for exotic grasses to chew. And why not? Any preconceptions about what half-orcs are is just an adopted prejudice, right?
Pathfinder would have been better if it played straight with the tropes we're expecting from the campaign setting and from 40 years of game play.
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By "unplayable," I mean "who the hell would play a Half-Orc that wasn't a Barbarian. Maybe a Fighter if you were feeling frisky.
Maybe YOU guys like gimping the hell out of a racial choice because of adopted prejudices from a game that is NOT this game, but I rather have all races more or less equally viable for every class.
Sheesh. Turn it down a notch.
I've been playing Half-orc Rogues (Or assassins or thiefs, depending on the version) since the 80's. Sorry that you feel tied to playing the obvious strengths, some of us do play outside the perfectly optimized box. Yes, the 3.5 Half-Orc was flawed. Most of us think the PF Beta version was a fine update. And grew to like it quite a bit. Then we got a watered down weakass version in PRPG and felt a bit let down. The 'Orc' was taken out of Half-orc And we got a human with Darkvision instead of an extra feat And no skill points.
But all that aside, no reason for the hostility.
But gaming is very serious business!
Hi, Cartigan. Happy New Year.
You speak about "prejudices inherited from a game that is not this game".
Well, I guess. But then, dwarves are short, sturdy people with beards. That's a prejudice inherited from a game that isn't this game (D&D) and from popular culture, the same as with half-orcs.
You mean "inherited" from J.R.R.Tolkien?
Because before that - There are no Halflings. Orc (Half or Otherwise) don't mean what we now think it means. Elves and Dwarves really do exist, but are really different then what we have come to expect.
And before all that, non-human characters are relatively rare (they appeared mostly as Monsters or Encounters).
By "unplayable," I mean "who the hell would play a Half-Orc that wasn't a Barbarian. Maybe a Fighter if you were feeling frisky.
Maybe YOU guys like gimping the hell out of a racial choice because of adopted prejudices from a game that is NOT this game, but I rather have all races more or less equally viable for every class.
Um.... dude.... almost the entire Pathfinder game is based on "prejudices from a game that is NOT this game". How can you ignore all the other prejudices and just pick on this one. Admit it -- you hate orcs don't you? You are the one that is prejudiced! *grins*
Half-Orcs: +2 Strength +2 Constitution -2 Intelligence -2 Charisma
I just wanted to endorse this set of racial ability mods as being ones that would encourage me to actually make a half orc character. As things currently stand with PF half orcs, they have no distinct appeal. I would always make a human character instead of a half orc one.
That is all. Please resume flaming each other.
Not necessarily human
Orcs are the feral beastial ones
Half-Orcs are the outcasts, not liked by anyone, and so are usually FORCED to take on a beastial nature. I.E. == Orc = 3.5.
What happens now, if we take these half-orcs, and raise and civilize them.
OH SHI- = PF orc.
Problem solved, STOP THIS THREAD, It's not even homebrewing now, it's a freaking argument.
Now go rate some of my homebrews :P
Eh I for one like the new half orc, so there :P
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I decided to go all out and make adjustments to every race I was dissatisfied with. That included halflings and gnomes, which I thought were too similar and half-orcs and half-elves which I thought were overshadowed by humans. Also, I don't think dwarves have enough features to make them worthwhile.
Buh?
Ellington. Pal. Buddy. You redesigned nearly every one of the core races. Maybe you just need to play a different game? This isn't meant as an attack or an insult or anything like that. It just seems like you should either try to find a system you agree with or make the changes you want to make to the system you've got and go quietly back to your game table happy with the chaos you've sown by starting this thread.
Dwarves don't have enough features to be worthwhile? Really? Dwarves are arguably the most well-equipped race for the adventuring lifestyle and have been for a long time. They've dwelt in the upper echelon of LA+0 since 3.0. What do the stout folk need to do to earn your love? Should we suggest giving them rocket fists and laser beards? Perhaps every dwarf should have the ability to chew through solid stone and poop out polished adamantine and 25,000gp diamonds they can use to fuel their spell-like ability to cast Wish three times per day?
I kid.
And the NEW YEARS POSTING AWARD GOES TOO -Opens up the envelope slowly as the music plays-
VELCRO ZIPPER FOR HIS POST IN "DWARVES AND HALF-ORCS". Come on up here Velcro! -Camera follows, and lights shine and sparkle as the crowd applauds-
Respect from certain board members, and a few lawls?
mostly, just the lawls.
... giving them rocket fists and laser beards? ...I am in full support of Laser Beards and may refuse to play any tabletop RPG made by any company until Laser Beards are fully implemented for all Dwarven characters.
What have we created!?!!?!?!
I decided to go all out and make adjustments to every race I was dissatisfied with. That included halflings and gnomes, which I thought were too similar and half-orcs and half-elves which I thought were overshadowed by humans. Also, I don't think dwarves have enough features to make them worthwhile.Buh?
Ellington. Pal. Buddy. You redesigned nearly every one of the core races. Maybe you just need to play a different game? This isn't meant as an attack or an insult or anything like that. It just seems like you should either try to find a system you agree with or make the changes you want to make to the system you've got and go quietly back to your game table happy with the chaos you've sown by starting this thread.
Dwarves don't have enough features to be worthwhile? Really? Dwarves are arguably the most well-equipped race for the adventuring lifestyle and have been for a long time. They've dwelt in the upper echelon of LA+0 since 3.0. What do the stout folk need to do to earn your love? Should we suggest giving them rocket fists and laser beards? Perhaps every dwarf should have the ability to chew through solid stone and poop out polished adamantine and 25,000gp diamonds they can use to fuel their spell-like ability to cast Wish three times per day?
I kid.
** spoiler omitted **
Dude, that'd be awesome.
Anyways, I don't really think making adjustments to races means I should try to find a new system. I mean, I'm sticking to the general guidelines Pathfinder follows for creating races and I'm changing any of the other rules. My main complaints with the races were that halflings and gnomes are way too similar (you don't need two short and charismatic races, really) and that half-elves and half-orcs are really redundant. I guess I might have underestimated the dwarves, but there's really not much about them that appeal to me for any class other than a cleric and maybe a druid.
And I don't see what's wrong with totally redesigning a lot of the core races if you don't think they fit into your games. That's what homebrewing is all about, man! I just wanted to get some feedback on whether or not some race is becoming too powerful or powerless.
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And I don't see what's wrong with totally redesigning a lot of the core races if you don't think they fit into your games. That's what homebrewing is all about
Hence,
or make the changes you want to make to the system you've got
I hear where you're coming from. Have you asked your players what changes they'd like to see to the core races? Since those are the guys you're going to be rolling dice with, they'd probably be a good source for input. You might also take a look at the variant core races from the various environment books WOTC put out for 3.5 (Sandstorm, Frostburn, etc.) for ideas on what works or doesn't work for your campaign.
Use my Chelonei >.> They mindfuzzle people!