Round 1: cast Enlarge Person and Quickened Fly on the Fighter
Round 2: Fighter Bull Rushes the medium- or large-sized Dragon
Does the Dragon make a skill check to avoid falling? If the Fighter fails the bull rush, must THEY make a fly check instead as long as the dragon is the same size or larger?
This is something I've been wondering about for some time. My players are several adventures away from this, but I want to make sure I have this down before it happens. The Fly skill obviously says "Object" so I am really not sure if this would be in the spirit of the maneuver.
I apologize if this has already been answered. I did try to search for it.
I know, right???
Just to clarify (since it wasn't obvious to me!), this is the rule under discussion:
"Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage."
Having read that rule, it seems reasonable to me to allow a bull rush to force a Fly check for the pushee but not the pusher.
It's interesting that said fighter is immune to this stunt since he's not using wings to fly but a spell.
Just to see a running example;
let's check out the adult black dragon, a large CR11 opponent, 161HP.
It has a CMD of 33.
Fighter's bullrush CMB could be in the mid teens, lvl 9-10ish, let's say it's 15. Needs a 18, 19 or 20 to succeed.
The dragon's fly skill modifier is +12. It needs to roll a 13 to avoid the falling damage so 1 to 12 is a fail.
Combining the two probabilities; (3*12)/(20*20)= 36/400 = 9% of the times the dragon will fall.
If the fighter tries to pull this let's assume he tries to maximize the damage, I don't think the dragon would fall for it twice.
The max damage for a fall that would not allow a second fly check(*) would be at 500 ft for 50d6 or an average of 175 damage.
That's a pretty dead dragon.
(*) I would allow a second check if the falling time exceeded one round. the falling guidelines do allow casting a spell(std action at least) if the fall is greater than 500 ft.
So optimally executed this stunt could allow a fighter and his wizard buddy to kill a CR appropiate dragon in three rounds(time to get the required height) roughly once of every 10 attempts using two spells and a bit of clever thinking.
It seems a cool thing to try, not very reliable but cool nonetheless.
PF removed the maximun fall damage of 20d6?
Yeah, it's totally either a desperation maneuver or a maneuver performed by someone who's totally twinked out for bull rushes and other maneuvers. I'm just wondering if it's even POSSIBLE by the rules. The "object" language concerns me.
Another tactic would be for a high-mid Wizard to rock out the Forceful Hand to do the same thing. Once on the ground, the party can try to have its way with Mr.Dragon and keep doing this round after round. One might also argue that Reverse Gravity could cause a similar check to be made, but not as effective in as many situations.
I'm just wondering if it's even POSSIBLE by the rules. The "object" language concerns me.
Well, the rules make distiction between objects and creatures. For example in the targets for spells description...
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
or some creature's extraordinary abilities...
Double Damage Against Objects (Ex): A treant or animated tree that makes a full attack against an object or structure deals double damage.
So strict RAW would not allow for it, methinks. Creatures are not objects.
But that's why we have DMs for, isn't it?
The max damage for a fall that would not allow a second fly check(*) would be at 500 ft for 50d6 or an average of 175 damage.
That's a pretty dead dragon.
Unless I am missing something.....
Round = 6 seconds.
Acceleration = 32' per sec per sec.
Velocity at end of 6 seconds = 192' per sec.
Avg velocity for 6 seconds = 96' per sec (192/2).
Distance = 6x96= 576'
I s'pose it's correct, I did not bother to do the math, just used this as a guideline...
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.
If it's time enough to cast a spell, it's also enough to try to stabilize flight.
However this negates the Quickened Enlarge + fly as a valid tactic because if the dragon is 500' up in the air you can't bull rush him on that first round.
Well yes, the dragon would be out of range, but as I said:
So optimally executed this stunt could allow a fighter and his wizard buddy to kill a CR appropiate dragon in three rounds(time to get the required height) roughly once of every 10 attempts using two spells and a bit of clever thinking.
The max damage for a fall that would not allow a second fly check(*) would be at 500 ft for 50d6 or an average of 175 damage.
That's a pretty dead dragon.
Under Enviromental rules
FallingCreatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6...
The max damage for a fall that would not allow a second fly check(*) would be at 500 ft for 50d6 or an average of 175 damage.
That's a pretty dead dragon.
Under Enviromental rules
FallingCreatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6...
Oops, you're right. I missed that. :(
No more cheap shooting dragons anymore then.