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Here is the situation. We have a 9th level elf ranger in the campaign created with a 20pt pathfinder buy that is dominating the fights with the amount of damage he is doing.
Str 14
Dex 22
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 8
Magic Items:
Efficient Quiver
Longbow +1 (Composite/Shock/Strength Rating+2)
Longsword+1
Ring of Protection+1
Snakeskin Shirt(+2AC/+2DEX/+2 SAVvsPOISON)
Feats:
Deadly Aim
Manyshot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus(Longbow)
Improved Precise Shot
Point Blank Shot
His attack with his bow (< 30') is 18. A standard course of action is for the sorcerer to cast Haste (player figures with the extra Ranger attack this is best damaging spell) and the cleric to use his good domain to make the Ranger's bow Holy.
This results in the following full attack:
14/14 Rapid Shot + Many Shot
14 Hasted Attack
9
1d8 + 2 (str) + 4 (Deadly Aim) + 1 (magic) + 1 (Precise) + 1d6 Shock + 2d6 Holy.
The other day, all of the attacks hit an ogre barbarian.
4(d8 + 8 + 3d6) + d8 + 3 + 3d6 =
18 + 32 + 42 + 4.5 + 3 + 10.5 = 110 points of damage on average...
Actually, there was critical in that...but that is overkill for my question.
The holy doesn't happen that often. The haste happens a lot with the sorcerer casting it. The first time I saw this happened I was suspicious about the stacking of Many Shot with Rapid Shot but it seems legal. Part of the problem may be that the Ranger is fairly optimized but the other characters are not. I'm sure that folks could come up with some 9th level [put your class here] builds that could show the same damage potential.
I'm inclined to leave things as is. I was wondering what other folks have thought about the current archery rules/feats and if they have made any adjustments.
If
1) one character is optimized and the others are not
and
2) two support characters both use significant resources buffing that person
Then, they're going to dominate play! I don't think that what you have presented shows a problem with archery. If the character was a high damage barbarian who was getting hasted by the wizard and buffed by the cleric, you'd get the same outcome (or worse!)
I agree and Id go further and say that if the cleric and the sorceror were built decently they would have WAY better things todo with there time, also how big is the party? cause if you have to caster buffing a ranger who is keeping the baddies at bay? this combo actualy seems really weak unless their are also 3 fighter keeping mobs off the support teams nuts.
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If
1) one character is optimized and the others are not
and
2) two support characters both use significant resources buffing that person
Then, they're going to dominate play! I don't think that what you have presented shows a problem with archery. If the character was a high damage barbarian who was getting hasted by the wizard and buffed by the cleric, you'd get the same outcome (or worse!)
Agree here. If you think about it, the Ranger wouldn't look as cool without the haste and/or holy. The other characters, however, have to get some of the credit for those effects. For instance every bonus attack that hits (and any attack that hits by only 1 as the Haste adds 1 to attack) really have to be scored to the Sorcerer. You could add up the holy damage and score that to the cleric also.
I have a Bow ranger in a group and to be honest, he is not as exciting but he never has the direct support your group is laying on your bow ranger. But I have had a Bow Ranger/fighter in another campaign who could lay the damage down pretty impressively.
Now, here is where that Ranger is going to run into trouble. Anything with a good deal of DR, immune to Electricity (since he uses a shock bow) and/or not evil is going to take a significantly smaller amount of damage. That is when the party will start to look for other alternatives for damage.
I do not think that you should include buff spells cast by other characters in judgung wether a character concept is overpowered (at least not straightforward ones like haste, there may be trickier exploits which are really game breaking and I am not aware of).
That said, I do not find 110 damage on a stellar attack / damage roll at level 9 this worrying.
Compare that with a 9d6 fireball that does on a good roll say 40+ damage to all foes in a whole lot of squares? Placed right that can and will easily amount to several hundred points of damage dealt.
Or consider a lvl9 barbarian with a +3 greataxe that hits with both is attacks (one critical), uses power attack and has a (raging) strength of 24...
That would be 4d12+88 damage.
Now, if this guy is hasted and enlarged...
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(15d6+120 dmg, assuming the haste attack hits normally)
Remember that enlarge person doesn't work with ranged weapons because the weapons reduce to normal size as soon as they aren't being held. It'll add the strength bonus to thrown weapons, but no die size increase to any kind of ranged weapon.
Remember that enlarge person doesn't work with ranged weapons because the weapons reduce to normal size as soon as they aren't being held. It'll add the strength bonus to thrown weapons, but no die size increase to any kind of ranged weapon.
You can also get the strength bonus on your compound bow. If it's built high enough.
Remember that enlarge person doesn't work with ranged weapons because the weapons reduce to normal size as soon as they aren't being held. It'll add the strength bonus to thrown weapons, but no die size increase to any kind of ranged weapon.You can also get the strength bonus on your compound bow. If it's built high enough.
You'd need a second bow just for when you get enlarged, or suffer a penalty when you're not enlarged.
Remember that enlarge person doesn't work with ranged weapons because the weapons reduce to normal size as soon as they aren't being held. It'll add the strength bonus to thrown weapons, but no die size increase to any kind of ranged weapon.
That is correct, but the barbarian in my example utilizes a fine greataxe.
Remember that enlarge person doesn't work with ranged weapons because the weapons reduce to normal size as soon as they aren't being held. It'll add the strength bonus to thrown weapons, but no die size increase to any kind of ranged weapon.That is correct, but the barbarian in my example utilizes a fine greataxe.
Sorry, that's what I get for skimming.
Maybe this is a good time to test if those monks are viable against rangeds or not? Two flies in one strike, or what you say in English.
Put them up against a team of monk-rogues and see what will happen.
The elf could be dealing more damage with more strength. By giving up just one ranger ability, each arrow could do +2 damage. He could have saved up for a +str item. At least it wasn't against his favored enemy! Also, with a +9 BAB, deadly aim should be -3 to attack and +6 to damage, not +4.
By the way, what is the Quiver of Efficiency and in which book is it located?
If the cleric and sorcerer are concerned about their archer friend stealing the glory, they could simpley ignore the offending ranger when casting spells or using special abilities.
My math:
9 BAB +6 Dex +1 W. Foc. +1 Enhancement +1 Point Blank =18 +1 Haste= 19
19 -2 Rapid Shot -3 Deadly Aim= 14
Which indicates the player is taking a penalty without the bonus.
Shouldn't all 5 arrows deal the same damage because no sneak attack or crit damage was involved? Deadly Aim and Point Blank shot are not precision based damage as far as I know. Which is to say that creatures immune to crits still take each type of damage.
1d8+3d6+10= 4.5+10.5+10= 25x5= 125 average if all five hit
Give credit where it's due, this post should be titled "Buffing Works!!!" because ultimately the sorcerer and the cleric are almost as responsible for the overall damage capacity here as the ranger. A couple points though.
Look at it this way, the Cleric using his Domain SLA is responsible for 8d6 of that damage due to the holy enhancement and for every consecutive round. That's one SLA the cleric used and he's caused 8d6*4 rounds of damage (potentially). Further he is certainly doing something else for the rest of the encounter.
Sorcerer casting haste is responsible for 25% of that damage due to the extra attack. Not only is the sorcerer responsible for 25% of the rangers's damage output but he's also responsible for 25-30% of damage output of all martial characters in the group. If you have a fighter and a rogue that can be a huge bump in damage output per round and in the mean time he can keep casting.
Maybe if your other players are feeling a bit of class envy you should let them roll their piece of the ranger's damage output. Then your group might get the idea that it's not the ranger being over the top but a team effort.
Alix B said:
I agree and Id go further and say that if the cleric and the sorceror were built decently they would have WAY better things todo with there time, also how big is the party? cause if you have to caster buffing a ranger who is keeping the baddies at bay? this combo actualy seems really weak unless their are also 3 fighter keeping mobs off the support teams nuts.
How is 125 damage per turn at 9th level a "weak" choice? A ranger doesn't even need to move around to deal all this damage. Plus they get archer feats before other classes can qualify for them, making their shots better. As far as blocking goes, the casters could be using tricks to slow down the enemies, such as dropping summoned monsters directly in charge paths.
Edit: format
By the way, what is the Quiver of Efficiency and in which book is it located?
It is in the core pathfinder book, page 511, though the official name for it is "Efficient Quiver".
Efficient Quiver
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th
Slot —; Price 1,800 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about 20 arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible. The first and smallest one can contain up to 60 objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to 18 objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as 6 objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard. The efficient quiver weighs the same no matter what’s placed inside it.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Cost 900 gp
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Shouldn't all 5 arrows deal the same damage because no sneak attack or crit damage was involved? Deadly Aim and Point Blank shot are not precision based damage as far as I know. Which is to say that creatures immune to crits still take each type of damage.1d8+3d6+10= 4.5+10.5+10= 25x5= 125 average if all five hit
I thought the damage was precision based. The feats don't explicitly say precision based but from the wording of the feats I understood them to be.
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I agree and Id go further and say that if the cleric and the sorceror were built decently they would have WAY better things todo with there time, also how big is the party? cause if you have to caster buffing a ranger who is keeping the baddies at bay? this combo actualy seems really weak unless their are also 3 fighter keeping mobs off the support teams nuts.
The party is huge, 8 players on average and they do an excellent job of blocking. I have to adjust all of the fights by quite a bit.
Party consists of: 1 Dwarf Cleric (Full Plate), 1 Dwarf Paladin (Full Plate), 1 Sorcerer, 1 Mage, 1 Ranger, 1 Rogue, 1 Barbarian, 1 Beast Master (back-fitted from 3.5) with 2 pets.
p.s.
Just a side note, our group does follow the first rule of having fun.
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Maybe if your other players are feeling a bit of class envy you should let them roll their piece of the ranger's damage output. Then your group might get the idea that it's not the ranger being over the top but a team effort.
I like this idea. I probably won't make them roll it out explicitly but pointing out to them that it really is a team effort is a good suggestion. You make sure that not all the glory goes to the Ranger with this route.
The party is huge, 8 players on average and they do an excellent job of blocking. I have to adjust all of the fights by quite a bit.
Party consists of: 1 Dwarf Cleric (Full Plate), 1 Dwarf Paladin (Full Plate), 1 Sorcerer, 1 Mage, 1 Ranger, 1 Rogue, 1 Barbarian, 1 Beast Master (back-fitted from 3.5) with 2 pets.
p.s.
Just a side note, our group does follow the first rule of having fun.
Huh interesting, and theyve done the math and the double buff on the ranger is really the most efficient damage option? Well if it works i guess, have you tried throwing them enemies that force the party to emphasise other members? for example a anouther group with a caster buffing fast flying party members with protection from arrows and then strinking behind the lines to get at the ranger, forcing the melee fighter to reform and save the rangers bacon?
I agree with Alex B. in the above senario. If the monsters chose to do this, than the archer would be a weak option.