I am slightly bothered by the amount of skill points an Eidolons can get. I can see an Eidolon being able to do almost any skill better then a character.
At first:
Evo: Skill +8
Feat: Skill Focus +3
Ranks: +2
Class Skill: +3
Ability score: +3 to -2
Total 19 to 14
Thats crazy especially for certain skills such as UMD, disable traps, and open locks.
I am slightly bothered by the amount of skill points an Eidolons can get. I can see an Eidolon being able to do almost any skill better then a character.
At first:
Evo: Skill +8
Feat: Skill Focus +3
Ranks: +2
Class Skill: +3
Ability score: +3 to -2
Total 19 to 14Thats crazy especially for certain skills such as UMD, disable traps, and open locks.
I completely agree! Honestly, if the summoner had more skills/points, and the eidolon had less, it would make more sense...
If you want to be social, send in your betentacled beasty....weird.
It's not really that bad compared to a Human or Half-Elf:
Ranks: +1
Skill Focus: +3
2/2 Feat: +2
Class Skill: +3
Ability Score: up to +5
Total: up to 14
EDIT: Actually, +16 is doable for certain race-skill combos. Halflings and Gnomes can get +16 stealth and Half-Elves can get +16 Perception. Add in Ranger and those can go to +18 in the right environment at level 1.
It's not really that bad compared to a Human or Half-Elf:
Ranks: +1
Skill Focus: +3
2/2 Feat: +2
Class Skill: +3
Ability Score: up to +5
Total: up to 14EDIT: Actually, +16 is doable for certain race-skill combos. Halflings and Gnomes can get +16 stealth and Half-Elves can get +16 Perception. Add in Ranger and those can go to +18 in the right environment at level 1.
So a player burning every feat they get can almost equal the skill potential of the summoner's pet.
Yep.
It costs an evolution point to get the +8 though. A good investment, yes, but its definitely a trade off for the other things they could snag for a point. (reach for example).
-S
So a player burning every feat they get can almost equal the skill potential of the summoner's pet.
And the Eidolon isn't burning evolution points and feats on this?
So a player burning every feat they get can almost equal the skill potential of the summoner's pet.And the Eidolon isn't burning evolution points and feats on this?
The Eidolon has not used any feats but even an investment of 3 evolution points would ensure the pet had a better Perception, Disable Device, and Open Lock skills than any rogue at any level.
Level 4
4 ranks +3 Class skill +8 evolution = +15
Level 20
20 ranks +3 class +8 = +31
That is without adding any stat bonus or feats.
So a player burning every feat they get can almost equal the skill potential of the summoner's pet.And the Eidolon isn't burning evolution points and feats on this?The Eidolon has not used any feats but even an investment of 3 evolution points would ensure the pet had a better Perception, Disable Device, and Open Lock skills than any rogue at any level.
Level 4
4 ranks +3 Class skill +8 evolution = +15Level 20
20 ranks +3 class +8 = +31That is without adding any stat bonus or feats.
Any rogue at any level?
Level 20 rogue, any race, Disable Device:
+43 (20 ranks, +3 class skill, +10 dex, +10 trapfinding)
Level 20 rogue, elf/halfling/half-elf, Perception:
+28/+38 (20 ranks, +3 class skill, +3 wis, +2 race, +10 trapfinding to locate traps)
You're drastically overstating your case.
So a player burning every feat they get can almost equal the skill potential of the summoner's pet.And the Eidolon isn't burning evolution points and feats on this?The Eidolon has not used any feats but even an investment of 3 evolution points would ensure the pet had a better Perception, Disable Device, and Open Lock skills than any rogue at any level.
Level 4
4 ranks +3 Class skill +8 evolution = +15Level 20
20 ranks +3 class +8 = +31That is without adding any stat bonus or feats.
Any rogue at any level?
Level 20 rogue, any race, Disable Device:
+43 (20 ranks, +3 class skill, +10 dex, +10 trapfinding)
Level 20 rogue, elf/halfling/half-elf, Perception:
+28/+38 (20 ranks, +3 class skill, +3 wis, +2 race, +10 trapfinding to locate traps)You're drastically overstating your case.
At level 20 the Eidon can have the 30 dex also and drop a feat for an extra 6
That would put the pet at
DD 20 ranks +3 class +8 evolution +10 Dex +6 Skill focus= +47
What is that +10 Trapfinding that rogues can magically apply to all of their skill checks? Are you assuming that the rogue will burn through half of his feats to pump skills?
At level 20 the Eidon can have the 30 dex also and drop a feat for an extra 6
So can the Rogue. What's your point? The Rogue even gets more feats than the Eidolon, so it's relatively cheaper for them. Eidolons only get 9 feats; Rogues can get up to 14.
And the Rogue is going to be a LOT more effective in combat if the Eidolon has wasted the evolutions needed to get Dex to 30. That requires a Small Serpentine base form (so 1 point short of the other forms to start out with), all 4 level boosts into Dex (bringing us to 20) and all 4 Increase Attribute uses (costing 10 of 26 evolution points). That example Eidolon, by the way, only has 4 skills, not 6, because it doesn't have the leftover level up increases or Increase Attribute evolutions to raise Intelligence to 10. Furthermore, you're saying it's taken the Skilled evolution 6 times; that leaves it with 10 evolution points left. It can't be Large or Huge, because it needs its Small size to get Dex to 30, which means its strength is going to be an astounding 8. It has enough points left over for Energy Attacks and 8 tentacles, but those don't come close to what the Rogue is capable of in combat, especially with the cruddy Strength score.
What is that +10 Trapfinding that rogues can magically apply to all of their skill checks? Are you assuming that the rogue will burn through half of his feats to pump skills?
If you don't even know that, you have no business whatsoever making any claims about Eidolon vs Rogue skill comparisons. Read the g!@#!@n class.
Also, I never claimed it applied to "all of their skills checks", so please stop lying. It applies to all Disable Device checks and to Perception checks to locate traps. That just so happens to be 100% of the skill checks you were claiming the Eidolon beat the Rogues' pants off with. It's not my fault you don't even know how the Rogue class operates when you're making claims about it; that's entirely your own fault.
So yes, a Eidolon can give up some combat ability in order to be a decent skill monkey.
Sounds about right to me.
He can do alot of differnet things but will have a very hard time doing several of them /at the same time/.
Is there a reason we are not applying any enhancement or inherent bonuses to the eidolon's stats?
Is there a reason we are not applying any enhancement or inherent bonuses to the eidolon's stats?
Inherent bonuses don't work; the Eidolon is only an aspect of the real creature. Every time you re-summoned it they'd be wiped clean. Enhancement bonuses are a PITA because you either have to spend a spell slot on them or bring a doggie bag to pick up all the magic items the Eidolon drops when it gets dismissed (and since it's vulnerable to dismissal and banishment, that's liable to be not infrequently at level 20).
And anyway, 30 dex for the rogue only includes either enhancement or inherent, not both. 20 base + 5 levels + 5 or 6 inherent/enhancement.
Where does it say that? I don't recall reading anything to the effect that inherent bonuses don't work, and wordsearching the document for "inherent" turns up nothing, but I'm not that familiar with the class yet and may be overlooking some clause about all magical effects resetting (however, the fact that cursed items "remember" the eidolon seems to suggest otherwise). Enhancement bonuses are so cheap at that level that it is foolish to assume they aren't being used, even if they have to be applied manually through a wand.
Also, I assumed you were giving the rogue a +2 or +3 inherent bonus. A 20 base stat isn't easy to pull off in prpg pointbuy (not for a utility character at least).
Where does it say that? I don't recall reading anything to the effect that inherent bonuses don't work, and wordsearching the document for "inherent" turns up nothing, but I'm not that familiar with the class yet and may be overlooking some clause about all magical effects resetting (however, the fact that cursed items "remember" the eidolon seems to suggest otherwise).
It's implied by the fact that you are not summoning the same creature every time. You're summoning an aspect of a different creature. You can't apply inherent bonuses to a part of a creature and expect them to stick around when that aspect gets dissipated and you have to make a new one when you re-summon it. The aspect stuff is directly stated in the Summoner entry.
Also, I assumed you were giving the rogue a +2 or +3 inherent bonus. A 20 base stat isn't easy to pull off in prpg pointbuy (not for a utility character at least).
Point Buy is not the default nor the standard method for stat generation.
It's implied by the fact that you are not summoning the same creature every time. You're summoning an aspect of a different creature.
The fact that it is only an aspect does not 'imply' in any way that it can't have an inherent bonus; for instance, curses (from cursed equipment no less) stick with it from one summoning to the next.
If the powers that be DO rule that eidolon can't do inherent bonuses they'll probably use the same fluff-rational that you are, but at the moment that is simply not the case.
Point Buy is not the default nor the standard method for stat generation.
Ah, so we're just assuming that he rolled a natural 18.
Righto.
There's no use arguing over whether inherent bonuses work until Jason makes an announcement. Having said that, however, if inherent bonuses do not work on them, then the 4 hd attribute increase shouldn't work either, since it is just an 'aspect' of the creature. Either both types of inherent bonuses work, or neither does. I'm ok with it either way, but Jason will need to make that decision.
I'm also curious if templates can be applied to the eidelon, assuming the template can be applied to an outsider that is. I can't see any RAW reason they can't, although you'd have to adjust their level just like you would a PC (which may make it impossible to apply the template at 1st level). That opens up the interesting question of, if templates can be applied, can they be applied/removed at level up? Again, interesting questions.
There's no rule against applying a template to a creature - after all, there are fiendish so-and-so's and such in the summon spells. A templated Outsider would be very rare though - they usually are the cause of such templates.
Being an aspect of a more powerful being, I would lean on no (but not impossible through magical enhancement, something that gave the Eidolon the advanced or giant size template). The main reason I see it as no is because it's not a 'living, growing creature' when summoned, it's an approximate example of one. If it were a brutal, war machine aspect of the said outsider, then it effectively has those 'templates' by grace of evolution points spent on combat features, strength, size, etc.
going back to the earlier examples, 2 things I didn't see mentioned I thought I would add.
1) All 1st level Summoners have a 2 HD Eidolon. That means they get 2 levels worth of skills at the start (8 points, which is 4 each given the reduced intelligence).
2) At lvl 20, all summoners have a 17 HD Eidolon. That means they are -not- 'lvl 20' for skill cap purposes. So the last example given can't use a base of 20. So it goes down 3 points.
Agreed on the Inherent bonuses part, though I would ask if you could ever put those on a regular summoned creature in the first place - normally I would expect it to be a complete waste but plausible for all of maybe the 2 minutes the creature exists. True, the Eidolon can 'go away', but the impression is you're summoning the same creature, even if it's an aspect. Until you changed its points and such, I would think it the same creature at the time, and to avoid being a stingy, PITA DM, leveling up would ignore any 'changing' involved and the inherent would stay.
The main issue is getting the inherent bonus in the first place. If you get it, you get it, congrats, if not, the game resumes.