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Actually when you are unconscious, but that isn't as catchy a title.....
When your character is unconscious, do you get saving throws? Or when you are unaware of the threat (the dragon breathes on you when you are flat-footed).
I looked and looked and couldn't find anything in the Core
Now that I've asked the question, I would say that its very DM dependent. Some GMs will not damage a character once he hits the ground (eg. the fighter gets knocked unconscious by the drow's sleeping poison and the next round a fireball goes off over his body). Other GM will say you get a save with no Dex (or whatever the relevant ability is) bonus. And still others will say you automatically take full damage.
I wonder if we could actually get a consensus on this subject. (Highly doubtful.) How about an opinion from some the fine Paizo folks (with the caveat that it is non-binding)?
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
There is nothing in the rules to suggest you must be aware of a threat to make a saving throw, some of it is just dumb luck. Mind you if its a reflex save you are going to have a tough time of it with a 0 dex.
Now that I've asked the question, I would say that its very DM dependent. I wonder if we could actually get a consensus on this subject.
Actually, by RAW this question is easy to answer: yes, a character can make saving throws while unconscious (see the 'Evasion' entry in the rogue class, which states that a helpless rogue does not gain the benefits of evasion, which in turn implies clearly that a rogue can make or fail a save while helpless). Making a saving throw is normally not an action, so there is no mechanical difference between an unconscious character making a Fortitude save vs. a coup-de-grace and an unconscious character saving against anything else. Unconscious characters have an effective Dexterity score of 0, however, which works out to a modifier of -5 on Dexterity-based rolls such as Reflex saves.
As for dead characters, a dead character is not so much a character as an object, and makes saves like an unattended object.
Now that I've asked the question, I would say that its very DM dependent. I wonder if we could actually get a consensus on this subject.Actually, by RAW this question is easy to answer: yes, a character can make saving throws while unconscious (see the 'Evasion' entry in the rogue class, which states that a helpless rogue does not gain the benefits of evasion, which in turn implies clearly that a rogue can make or fail a save while helpless). Making a saving throw is normally not an action, so there is no mechanical difference between an unconscious character making a Fortitude save vs. a coup-de-grace and an unconscious character saving against anything else. Unconscious characters have an effective Dexterity score of 0, however, which works out to a modifier of -5 on Dexterity-based rolls such as Reflex saves.
As for dead characters, a dead character is not so much a character as an object, and makes saves like an unattended object.
I do think though that you can't make reflex saves if the save requires you to be able to move out of the AoE. I believe such is the case with a fireball exploding in your area, if you have no method of moving to a safe area you can't save from it.
I do think though that you can't make reflex saves if the save requires you to be able to move out of the AoE. I believe such is the case with a fireball exploding in your area, if you have no method of moving to a safe area you can't save from it.
Movement is not relevant to the issue, a successful Reflex save does not move you outside of the area of an area-of-effect spell, it only mitigates the damage that you take.
I do think though that you can't make reflex saves if the save requires you to be able to move out of the AoE. I believe such is the case with a fireball exploding in your area, if you have no method of moving to a safe area you can't save from it.Now that I've asked the question, I would say that its very DM dependent. I wonder if we could actually get a consensus on this subject.Actually, by RAW this question is easy to answer: yes, a character can make saving throws while unconscious (see the 'Evasion' entry in the rogue class, which states that a helpless rogue does not gain the benefits of evasion, which in turn implies clearly that a rogue can make or fail a save while helpless). Making a saving throw is normally not an action, so there is no mechanical difference between an unconscious character making a Fortitude save vs. a coup-de-grace and an unconscious character saving against anything else. Unconscious characters have an effective Dexterity score of 0, however, which works out to a modifier of -5 on Dexterity-based rolls such as Reflex saves.
As for dead characters, a dead character is not so much a character as an object, and makes saves like an unattended object.
This is a common misconception. RaW you do not need to be able to move to avoid a fireball. You dont need something to hide behind. You just avoid it, standing in the square you are in. So no, you dont need to be able to move. You are far less likely to avoid it, but you still may. The 'real world'reason for this is that like actual flames, a fireball does not fill every inch of the space it occupies. There will be gaps, and that is where you are if you make your reflex save. A helpless person is avoiding them more or less by luck and not personal skill (the whole 0 dex deal). It just so happens high level heroes have much better luck then level 1 commoners (as they likely should).
Well, maybe I'm the "evil DM" but it makes a lot of sense to me to say, "If you're unconscious, your brain isn't working right, so you can't make Will saves. Oh, and if you're unconscious, you're not moving/ducking/dodging/avoid/reflexing at all, so you can't make Reflex saves, either. Fortitude saves...? Maybe."
Reflex saves are right out.
Will saves? Hm... I could go either way, and because I'm such a nice guy I would give them the benefit of the doubt.
Fort saves? You get them, definitely. Immune system still works.
I don't know...if we're arguing about how the mind works while unconscious, it's factual that it *does* in fact operate even after blunt trauma-related knockouts. If the mind can dream and operate while unconscious, then I'd say your actual Will still has an affect.