Ok here is the stats for what I did. He is probably a little heavier on his ability scores than normal. I have to change most of these because of party stats and number of players I have.
I'd think the champion would not be prepared for the DR of the lemures, and would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
Also, if/when he does win, he might have to handle both the summoner and the eidolon with only ranged help from the party. There doesn't appear to be a door on the cage heading into the Devildrome (hence Thrax uses dim door to get inside). It may be awhile before melee help from the party can arrive.
If the champion is not adjacent to the PC cage for the entire fight, I think he's toast.
I would be careful about juicing this bad guy too much.
@FarmerBob
@Vigil
Good points, although Thrax has been around the block a few times too. Once he realizes two castings worth of lemures are standing around and not attacking, I'd think he'd switch to Air elementals (which would be neutral). Pro from evil now only affects evil summoned creatures, so I'd think his tactics would change to fit the circumstances.
I rather like the idea of play-testing a Summoner for this particular NPC.
Besides, I have a rather "confident" monk at my table - I'm thinking that it's time to 'adjust' that confidence. ^_^
I think the Summoner would be too tough of fight in this situation if you send in Champion. If it's summoner vs summoner it works though.
The summoner can off the start summon his Eidolon by spending one minute. Since the match doesn't start till the creatures have been summoned this works. Then to support the Eidolon use the summoning spells to summon help. Then the Champion is stuck dealing with the full power of the Summoner. Where if the left as wizard the wizard is limited two 3 summoning spells and help spells for summoned creatures. The Wizard won't be blasting off Scorching Rays at the champion for example. The Summoner though will be throwing himself through the Eidolon at the Champion with help of 6D4+6 Lemures instead of 1D4+3 Lemures.
I seriously doubt any 5th level champion can withstand that type of attack on his own with only some helpful buff spell from the remaining party members.
Honestly I wouldn't do this either keep him a level 8 conjurer or drop the level and make him summoner to level 5. Then you can say he has 1 less Charisma reducing his total summonings to 5 and reducing the total from 1D4+1 lemures to 1D3 Lemures. As well the Eidolon is much weaker too.
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Something to consider in this though is that there is a time factor to consider as well. Unless the PC is a summoner as well(rather then just a caster who has summoning spells) they have a huge advantage in terms of just waiting out the other person since they have the spell like abilities to do minute a level summons and so they can have one summon out that will outlast two or three of the other persons.
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I think the Summoner would be too tough of fight in this situation if you send in Champion. If it's summoner vs summoner it works though.
I seriously doubt any 5th level champion can withstand that type of attack on his own with only some helpful buff spell from the remaining party members.
I've been thinking about this, and I agree wholeheartedly. I do though think it could be workable with the Champion option switching it up again. My group doesn't have anybody at all who can summon and their makeup makes it so that even the champion is going to have a very difficult time (there's really no party buffer). My thought is that if I were to switch him over to a summoner, he'd be so full of himself that he challenges the group, not together, but in a relay of sorts. The PCs fight to unconsciousness , at which time the next Champion enters the fight. I'm not saying I'm planning on doing this, but I do see it as an option.
I've been thinking about this, and I agree wholeheartedly. I do though think it could be workable with the Champion option switching it up again. My group doesn't have anybody at all who can summon and their makeup makes it so that even the champion is going to have a very difficult time (there's really no party buffer). My thought is that if I were to switch him over to a summoner, he'd be so full of himself that he challenges the group, not together, but in a relay of sorts. The PCs fight to unconsciousness , at which time the next Champion enters the fight. I'm not saying I'm planning on doing this, but I do see it as an option.
Interesting idea! Although don't forget:
Also, don't underestimate the ingenuity of PCs. I'm convinced my players will find some spells that violate the spirit of the rules, if they don't outright cheat when the time comes. I hesitate to even give examples because I'm sure it would get back to them somehow.
And if the party doesn't have the right mix of spellcasters:
I've been thinking about this, and I agree wholeheartedly. I do though think it could be workable with the Champion option switching it up again. My group doesn't have anybody at all who can summon and their makeup makes it so that even the champion is going to have a very difficult time (there's really no party buffer). My thought is that if I were to switch him over to a summoner, he'd be so full of himself that he challenges the group, not together, but in a relay of sorts. The PCs fight to unconsciousness , at which time the next Champion enters the fight. I'm not saying I'm planning on doing this, but I do see it as an option.Interesting idea! Although don't forget:
** spoiler omitted **
Also, don't underestimate the ingenuity of PCs. I'm convinced my players will find some spells that violate the spirit of the rules, if they don't outright cheat when the time comes. I hesitate to even give examples because I'm sure it would get back to them somehow.
And if the party doesn't have the right mix of spellcasters:
** spoiler omitted **
The relay is perfect.
Well Jason nerfed some of the summoner powers. Now summons are 1 round per level instead of 1 minute per level. Summoners can now only have 1 active summons at a time so that reduces the Lemures to 1D4+1 at a time. The Eidolon no long has armor training evolutions as well.
With these changes a Thrax as summoner is workable in this encounter. I'm going to try it for sure when my players get to this point.
Thrax will come back after them. He is going to have them followed and I will have him attack when they are vulnerable and don't expect it. My group loves to hate my NPCs.
Classy! And oh, what style! I think that was well handled. I think it was a good play not to allow the Eidolon into the ring during the legal match-- its summon time is also a problem. Yeah, I probably would have had Thrax start tagging people in the other cage as soon as he dropped Rhali, but my players complain about what real enemies do if a boss leaves someone dying and doesn't finish them. Your players were hopefully more forgiving.
Plus, GMs LOVE recurring villains.
I'm leaving Thrax as a Wizard because he's super classy, and I didn't think the Eidolon would have a good place in the arena, AND I'm lazy. But I think it is a GREAT place to playtest him. +1 sir, and +1.
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my party summoned a lantern archon. Set up out of reach of the lemures and eye rayed away... The crowed liked that, but the party's summon ended.
The rules stated that the other party dismisses his summon, then they both resummon the same thing. Had to change that as it would end in a draw each time.
The encounters still ended in a draw, and Thrax could see that he would run out of summons before the party's cleric that had totally loaded summons for the event.
This thread has been great since it is helping me anticipate the tactics of my players.
I think I'll adjust the rules so that the summoners alternate who needs to cast first, or make both summoners cast simultaneously so neither side is aware of what the other is casting. That helps level the playing field a bit.
Spoiler:my party summoned a lantern archon. Set up out of reach of the lemures and eye rayed away... The crowed liked that, but the party's summon ended.
Interesting. I'll have to add that to the list of things to prepare for. Since Thrax has a high int, and is a champion in this venue, in my game he'll re-evaluate his tactics based on what the players throw at him each round, but always with a flair for style when possible. He won't continue to summon creatures that have been successfully countered in a prior round.
I just reread this section, and noticed this time that the summoners are limited to casting the same creature each time. Must have missed that before.
Anyway, I think in my game:
I expect this to lead to a grand melee as the rest of the party enters, which presumably won't have the same defenses against the creatures Thrax summoned earlier, and should make for a much more dramatic/challenging fight.
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Now I changed Thrax to a summoner last night. He will probably come into play tonight. The eidolon I chose for him is serpentine. I made it large with poison, con damage, and a trip attack. I boosted its natural armor up. I can't remeber the rest right now. The encounter is definitely a litle harder now but there are 7 PCs.
There are no conjurers in the group so they will more than likely go with the champion option. We will see how the summoner option works out.
So here are the changes I've orchestrated for the Thrax battle.
My party consists of a Paladin, Ranger/Fighter, Sorcerer, and Rogue/Bard. The sorcerer has not focused on summoning at all, so the traditional "summoner fight" as outlined in the book is a no-go for me. What I've decided to do is convert Thrax to a summoner and go with a variant of the "Champion" option outlined in the AP.
Thrax is a pretty badass summoner due to the conversion. He has a larger number of hit points, a pretty reasonable AC, a nice melee attack with his 2-handed quarterstaff (2-attacks even), and other than missing a few higher level spells for not being level 8, his six Summon Monster IV per day along with his hefty self/group buffs don't make him a slouch. In fact, I think he might be able to hold his own against the PCs in a melee battle and that's before he surprises them with his Eidolon.
Here's how I've envisioned things. I understand the importance of the rule that the rounds end in a draw should one summon end before a victor is declared, but to me this doesn't fit terribly well with the whole "Champion" concept and with the minutes of duration on summoner summons, this is far less likely to happen. To switch things up a bit, I've turned the competition into a seven round "bout" with a defeat of one of the sides (either destroying all the summoned creatres or unconsciousness of the champion) worth one point. Four points wins the fight. Between rounds the champion can be revived, healed and buffed back up again. To date Thrax has never needed to use his Eidolon and won't deliberately fight with it due to overconfidence.
The first three rounds will go as-written more-or-less. Thrax will summon groups of Lemures into the ring to fight the champion (most-likely the Paladin). Frankly the Paladin will likely kill them all, even though with 2-3 at a time, two attacks per Lemure, and augment summoning the fight won't be a complete cakewalk. During the round involving the fourth point for the PCs, Thrax will throw his Eidolon into the ring as his champion (something not yet witnessed by the crowd who will erupt into cheers). This (significantly tougher) fight will be a test for the Champion, but again I trust my PCs to come up with some way to defeat it. Once the Eidolon is on its way to defeat Trax, outraged that he will lose the fight flies into a rage and begins summoning with the rest of his Summon Monster IV's (I'm thinking a set of Lemures, a couple Dretches, and a Hellhound should be sufficient) in obvious violation of the rules. He will use some of these creatures to help tear down the door to his cage where he will fly at the solitary PC with all of his summoned allies.
At that point hopefully the PCs will decide that their best course of action is to join in the fight.
I'm thinking a set of Lemures, a couple Dretches, and a Hellhound should be sufficient) in obvious violation of the rules.
Not to mention punishable by death in Cheliax. Demon summoning is a capital crime. Reference the fiction in Bastards of Erebus. They treat people who deal with demons worse than people who just murder.
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I'm thinking a set of Lemures, a couple Dretches, and a Hellhound should be sufficient) in obvious violation of the rules.Not to mention punishable by death in Cheliax. Demon summoning is a capital crime. Reference the fiction in Bastards of Erebus. They treat people who deal with demons worse than people who just murder.
I imagine Thrax more as a NE rather than LE opponent (thus the Demonic summoning). A summoner of that power and expertise who has won the cup that many times (always being sure to only deal in Devil summoning) would finally break down and bring out the "tougher" summons once he flew off the handle.
It would also give the PCs a legitimate and "legal" reason to actually try to kill him in public view. Which in turn will only make them more appealing to the public as a whole.
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Hmm, this actually brings up a good idea. Besides Thrax, can anyone think of other NPCs throughout Council of Thieves that would be better as some of the new 6 Advanced Player's Guide classes instead of their current setup?
This may just give me something to work on later tonight.
I had fun with Shanwen as a Cavalier.
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I played through with Thrax as a summoner last week. A level 8 summoner, his Eidolon and slews of summoned devils and it was a near TPK.
I played the game out as I had outlined before. The game was a best of seven tournament. One champion against Thrax's summoned minions. Weapons were not allowed, but rather each human opponent was given a spike gauntlet and was allowed to obtain weapons throughout the arena (and not normal weapons either, except the magic morningstar hung from the top of the cage).
The Paladin went first and wiped the floor against his three Lemures. Next went the Ranger who followed suit. Third went the sorcerer who was booed out from the crowd for levitating above the battlefield and using spells. Finally was the rogue/bard who I expected to fall unconscious, but who had a potion of expeditious retreat and dealt with everything from afar.
Throughout the fight the players made fun of Thrax, to the point that the bard with comedy and oratory asked to make rolls to put out the best insults. He probably shouldn't have done that. When the bard was just about read to kill his last Lemure Thrax turned himself invisible and boomed out as loud as he could that they would all die for their insolence, promptly summoning another 4 lemures for the bard to deal with. Then he sent his Eidolon charging through his own gate and after the bard.
What happened after that was a typical party split. The ranger tried leaving the devildrome and moving around to the other side over the top of the dome with spiderclimb trying to get in behind Thrax. The bard ran in terror as the Eidolon smaked him for around 50% of his hit points and started chasing him around the arena. The sorcerer and paladin were trapped in their cage by the five summoned Lemures, a hellhound, and when Thrax got really desperate a pair of dretches (I know what demon summoning will get you in Cheliax, but he was pissed). After about two hours of fighting, a slew of summon monster spells, and a pissed off invisible Thrax moving in behind the bard who had insulted him so many times to smack him over the head, the group finally got a footing and started to win.
In the end the Paladin single handedly took on 6 lemures and two dretches. The ranger took down Thrax himself after using track. The sorcerer expended three mirror images to take the Eidolon on one-on-one. And the bard kind of hit things here and there while spending most of the fight in single digit hit points.
If you chose to run Thrax as a summoner, I'd consider bringing him down a level because man, those things hurt.
I'll be keeping Thrax as a conjurer for my campaign.
One of my PCs, Faudrin, is a summoner, and his backstory is that he used to be Thrax's apprentice. Then one day he summoned his eidolon for the first time. Thrax was so jealous of this upstart being able to do something he couldn't that he tried to kill Faudrin and it was only the eidolon intervening that enabled Faudrin to escape. Thrax then blacklisted Faudrin so that no other wizard would take him on as a student, but fortunately he then discovered that he could cast spells without a spellbook.
So yeah, sparks are gonna fly when we get to the devildrome.
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Wow, can a 5th level champion handle 6d4+6 (21 average, summoned over 6 rounds) lemures with only (potentially ranged) buffing help from the party? The original encounter called for 2d4+2d3+3 (11 average, summoned over 5 rounds).
I'd think the champion would not be prepared for the DR of the lemures, and would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
Also, if/when he does win, he might have to handle both the summoner and the eidolon with only ranged help from the party. There doesn't appear to be a door on the cage heading into the Devildrome (hence Thrax uses dim door to get inside). It may be awhile before melee help from the party can arrive.
If the champion is not adjacent to the PC cage for the entire fight, I think he's toast.
I would be careful about juicing this bad guy too much.
A) there would have to be a door unless dim door is considered standard fare - which I doubt. I had to doors on the side not facing the arena.
[I used Thrax as written because I really don't like the summoner class & hate the eidolan]
The players have plenty of chances at learning that Lemures will be there. They encountered Lemures before at the 6fold trial - so they should know a bit about them - particularly their DR.
My players' champion dominated (not literally) the lemures. She was a monk who rolled very nice stats (heroic) and with buffs the lemures needed 20s to hit her and she needed 1s to miss. She was no where near the cage.
When Thrax came out, the ranged (Erastil) paladin with his "my smite bypasses all DR" took him down somewhat easily - then he was somehow (don't remember) disarmed of his staff.
They were very prepared - even bought a scroll of haste and made the level check to use it.
I'd say if you're confident in the skills of the players, go ahead with the summoner, though I'd add to the CR if only because of the eidolan, if it will be there.
If you're worried about this encounter, play as written.
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I stated my own version of Thrax and it went very badly.
** spoiler omitted **
I don't suggest others do this.
And this is why the new APG classes are stronger than the core classes.
Eidolans, fiendish rhinos, and more!?! that's a bit more than just lemures and a couple spells!
Switching Thrax over to a summoner did turn the Thrax encounter from kind of a snooze-fest to something quite epic though.
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I've found the difficulty of this adventure path is already high enough. The summoner was over-powered for my party and that just gets frustrating. I don't think APG as a whole is all that powerful. Cavalier is nothing a paladin can't already do.
Are there any discussions on this forum on the summoner class as a whole? The final playtest had some features weakened from the first playtest but I'm curious at what others think of this class.
I think the difficulty is high, but I really didn't like the Thrax encounter as it was written. The group either has the option of letting a single caster have all the fun, or let a single "champion" have all the fun. Neither option seemed all that entertaining (or impressive) for me trying to run the year's biggest event, The Hellcaller's Cup. Turning Thrax into a summoner who fights in traditional matches as he was presented in the original module, but going off the handle and using his summons when he loses it what made the fight more memorable. It also let me run a bet of seven tournament style where each player got a chance to shine in the ring instead of running it as it was (which really wasn't that exciting).
I'm in agreement though, with the exception of the summoner, I really don't think the APG classes are all that much more powerful. The witch seems downright tame compared to a wizard (and we have one of each in a group), the cavalier is flavorful but the paladin is overall more versatile, and the others are fairly well rounded. The only one (after playing through that fight) I think is borderline is the summoner.
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I'm only familiar with the (alpha version) witch and hearing a lot about the summoner (and from people who play summoners). I would agree that the witch isn't too powerful, but the summoner is off the chart. It sounds more like the powers of a prestige class.
Neither option seemed all that entertaining (or impressive) for me trying to run the year's biggest event, The Hellcaller's Cup. Turning Thrax into a summoner who fights in traditional matches as he was presented in the original module, but going off the handle and using his summons when he loses it what made the fight more memorable.
I didn't see the Hellcaller's Cup as the biggest event of the year. It's quasi-legal, for one. The play was a much bigger deal.
I highly recommend that if you have a summoner in your party, Thrax should be made a summoner. It was way too easy for my group when the summoner pwned all the lemures with no problem...also having it fly all over the place had it pwn Thrax as well.
Our group just finished the Knot, and given how they handled the Outcast King and the lemures, I will need to do something to make this encounter more exciting. They managed to go through the entire Knot without resting, and being fully charged for the only action of the day will be real one-sided.
They have a wizard, but I'm sure they'd much prefer to send in the half-orc barbarian to handle the job. After the first round, he's likely to be buffed with shield other, pro from evil, align weapon, and possibly bull's strength. If they feel threatened, there might be a second round of buffs on top of that. Mixing in rage, power attack, cleave, inspire courage, and the aid of the PCs outside the cage, he's not going to get scratched. Even if I change up the creatures Thrax summons, I don't think it will make any difference. I think he'll be doing 1d12+20 by the time he's done.
I thought about making Thrax a summoner, but I'm not crazy about that at this point. I'd be more willing to go down that route if I had the final APG, but our next session will be before I can get a copy.
Best thing I can think of right now is for him to have an entourage/groupies of a couple lower level characters that dim door into the arena with him when it's clear he's going to lose. I was thinking a few intelligent NPCs working in tandem might raise the stakes until the rest of the PCs arrive.
This would also give the rest of the party the chance to "save" the barbarian, since he's been doing all of the heavy lifting in the AP to date.
Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions here? I don't want to overdo it, but having him solo 11 lemures and then Thrax will be a pretty tame ending to a cool Thunderdome-like setup.