It might be very stupid, but I don't remember any D&D/Pathfinder rulebook answering this question : when a spellcaster casts an area of effect spell, can she be affected by it when and after the spell is cast?
Example : a druid casts Entangle in a area of which she is the center. Is she affected like anyone else in the area? And if she casts it a bit further and decides to walk through it on her next round, does it affect her?
I don't remember reading any clear rule on this and I once had a long argument with a player about the Black Tentacles that ''attacked anything that entered their area'', not knowing if the caster could be attacked by his own summoned tentacles. Any answers?
OT:
OT:** spoiler omitted **
I don't hate you, I just don't know what the heck you're talking about. No need to welcome me, by the way. I've been posting about two hundred threads asking random questions that often end up having obvious answers.
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PFRPG Core, Page 214:
"Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects."
Hope that helps!
PFRPG Core, Page 214:
"Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects."Hope that helps!
Thanks a lot, I guess that answers my question. Usually RPG books tend to give a lot of unnecessary-looking precisions, so I was just waiting to find a ''even the spellcaster might be affected'' precision. It makes sense, actually : my players and I always thought Entangle or Black Tentacles were overpowered, now I know they weren't.
Now another question : do you think it would be possible (and not overpowered) for a caster to shrink the area of effect of a spell? Let's say a wizard wishes to cast Sleep in a crowd. Do you think she could shrink the area of effect so it affects a smaller area (and amount of persons)? Couldn't a sorcerer that wants to cast Burning Hands reduce the lenght of the cone so she only hits the enemy that stands between her and a helpless peasant?
PFRPG Core, Page 214:
"Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects."Hope that helps!
Thanks a lot, I guess that answers my question. Usually RPG books tend to give a lot of unnecessary-looking precisions, so I was just waiting to find a ''even the spellcaster might be affected'' precision. It makes sense, actually : my players and I always thought Entangle or Black Tentacles were overpowered, now I know they weren't.
Now another question : do you think it would be possible (and not overpowered) for a caster to shrink the area of effect of a spell? Let's say a wizard wishes to cast Sleep in a crowd. Do you think she could shrink the area of effect so it affects a smaller area (and amount of persons)? Couldn't a sorcerer that wants to cast Burning Hands reduce the lenght of the cone so she only hits the enemy that stands between her and a helpless peasant?
Not without metamagic.
It's still possible to cast a spell at it's minimum caster level therefore reducing variables dependant on it, like a fireball's damage dice(not the area, this part is fixed) and range.
Thanks everyone! Of course, some spells obviously hit everything in their area (like Fireball), but some player and I were always arguing about wether his Entangle/Black Tentacles hit him or not and I had nothing to reply to ''but it's stupid if my own spell affects me''. I have to admit, it is a bit dumb that Black Tentacles summoned by a wizard can attack that same wizard... ever saw a wizard getting attacked by his own summons in a serious situation?
Thanks everyone! Of course, some spells obviously hit everything in their area (like Fireball), but some player and I were always arguing about wether his Entangle/Black Tentacles hit him or not and I had nothing to reply to ''but it's stupid if my own spell affects me''. I have to admit, it is a bit dumb that Black Tentacles summoned by a wizard can attack that same wizard... ever saw a wizard getting attacked by his own summons in a serious situation?
I think that is considered part of the 'deal', especially for conjurer / summoner types.
If you pooch your focal point / critter arrival point, and get eaten ... oops.
The same goes for the wizard or other caster that flicks a fireball down range ... and eats it because he was careless enough to deliver the spell's bead through the brawny back of his buddy Thrud the Barbarian ... oops.
From the PDR found HERE
Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects.
I hope that helps.
From the PDR found HERE
Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects.
I hope that helps.
That was already said earlier, but you're a living god for showing me where the PDR was.
Ack, I swear I read the thread but as I pondered your question that seemed the clearest answer.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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druid casts Entangle ... Is she affected like anyone else in the area? And if she casts it a bit further and decides to walk through it on her next round, does it affect her?
Yes
YesAt no point is there any rule that in general says you can't be effected by your effects, so the answer by RAW is yes.
druid casts Entangle ... Is she affected like anyone else in the area? And if she casts it a bit further and decides to walk through it on her next round, does it affect her?Yes
YesAt no point is there any rule that in general says you can't be effected by your effects, so the answer by RAW is yes.
+1
Spells that do not affect their casters are explicit in their descriptions - that's the biggest clue without finding that particular rule.
Thanks everyone! Of course, some spells obviously hit everything in their area (like Fireball), but some player and I were always arguing about wether his Entangle/Black Tentacles hit him or not and I had nothing to reply to ''but it's stupid if my own spell affects me''. I have to admit, it is a bit dumb that Black Tentacles summoned by a wizard can attack that same wizard... ever saw a wizard getting attacked by his own summons in a serious situation?
One is a summon reasonably under the wizards control, the other is an area spell. The tentacles are not under the wizards control, its just as foolish as a wizard droping a fire ball on himselve and wondering why his closes are all burn up. There are useful metamagics in 3.5 material like sculpt spell that help with this sort of thing. So in response to your 'shrink the area' question, it requires metamagic feats.
Now another question : do you think it would be possible (and not overpowered) for a caster to shrink the area of effect of a spell? Let's say a wizard wishes to cast Sleep in a crowd. Do you think she could shrink the area of effect so it affects a smaller area (and amount of persons)? Couldn't a sorcerer that wants to cast Burning Hands reduce the lenght of the cone so she only hits the enemy that stands between her and a helpless peasant?
For cone spells I really don't see a problem with a sorcerer aiming his hands downwards to shorten the length of the cone produced. It might be a problem if the ground is flammable but its natural to aim up or down to target flying/burrowing targets.
Strategic placement of spells can be very valuable. If you only want to hit a single target with a fireball, aim 20' up from the center of his square. As long as the ceiling(if any) is at least 25' high it will cut down on friendly fire. And it will prob provide an interesting light show for anyone nearby.
In a game I was storytelling I would say no to shrinking the area of a spell with out a feat or class ability that lets them do so. After all lowering the power of the spell might weaken it to the point that it no longer functions, and it makes those class features obsolete. But in 'most' cases the spellcaster just needs to read the range and area of the spell and be good at placement.
Spells like sleep typically hit the lowest hd creature in its area of effect first so if a noble woman wants the best chance to avoid a sorcerer from abducting her its not uncommon for a servant/bodyguard to be very close or even sharing her square in order to protect her.
There are some exceptions, such as you do have to remember summoned creatures must be summoned on the ground in an area with adequate space. Summoning a 60' tall monster in a 10' cubic room to squash the occupants is a nono, as is trying to summon a two ton elephant over your targets head (unless the spell is intended to do that).
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I have to admit, it is a bit dumb that Black Tentacles summoned by a wizard can attack that same wizard... ever saw a wizard getting attacked by his own summons in a serious situation?
In 3.0, Black Tentacles didn't target Small targets, so Halfling and Gnome Conjurors were all the rage at our table. They caught that little bit of fun in the 3.5 changes, sadly.
I kind of like that the spell, once summoned, is as dangerous to the spellcaster as anyone else. It makes the magic seem a bit less 'safe' and predictable.
On the other hand, some sort of Feat or Class Feature that rendered one immune to the hostile effects of their own spells could be neat. If might even make an acceptable +0 metamagic, since you'd be eating a feat to be immune to your own fireballs or black tentacles. Hard to say how such a thing would work mechanically, 'though. A more powerful version might even allow a spellcaster to be 'immune' to his own wall of force or fire storm, walking with impunity through the spell effect. ('Immunity' to ones own wall of iron or wall of stone, on the other hand, wouldn't really be an option, as they are instantaneous spells.)
I had never really thought about it before, but if a wizard casts fireball and has it detonate in the middle of all the monsters. But the wizard's line of sight passes through his own fighter and enemies before getting the optimal location. My question is two parts, is there some kind of check to see if the wizard accidentally hits the fighter in the back with the fireball. And second, can an enemy choose to jump in front of a fireball, thus having it explode earlier than the wizard expected and having it blow back into their own party?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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is there some kind of check to see if the wizard accidentally hits the fighter in the back with the fireball. And second, can an enemy choose to jump in front of a fireball, thus having it explode earlier than the wizard expected and having it blow back into their own party?
No
No
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My question is two parts, is there some kind of check to see if the wizard accidentally hits the fighter in the back with the fireball. And second, can an enemy choose to jump in front of a fireball, thus having it explode earlier than the wizard expected and having it blow back into their own party?
The text describes the wizard having to make a ranged touch attack to throw the fireball through an arrow slit or something, which suggests that cover can cause an early detonation on a failed roll. I doubt that random people count as 'cover' for this purpose, 'though, or it would have been specifically mentioned.
As for the second part, I would rule that a character who knew what was going on (understood how fireballs work, for instance) could delay an action to try and leap in the way, to cause the fireball to detonate on his person, instead of at the target beyond him, if he's within say a 5 ft. step of it's path (more than that, and I'm not sure I'd allow someone to move fast enough to get in the way of the fireball). It's a safe bet that deliberately jumping in the line of fire counts as deliberately failing your saving throw, as well. :)
If a player wants to do something cool like that, I try to find a way to say yes. But the BBEG's evil henchmen won't be doing that to try and stop the parties fireballs from reaching the boss. They aren't heroes. Cool options don't occur to them.
Now another question : do you think it would be possible (and not overpowered) for a caster to shrink the area of effect of a spell? Let's say a wizard wishes to cast Sleep in a crowd. Do you think she could shrink the area of effect so it affects a smaller area (and amount of persons)? Couldn't a sorcerer that wants to cast Burning Hands reduce the lenght of the cone so she only hits the enemy that stands between her and a helpless peasant?For cone spells I really don't see a problem with a sorcerer aiming his hands downwards to shorten the length of the cone produced. It might be a problem if the ground is flammable but its natural to aim up or down to target flying/burrowing targets.
Strategic placement of spells can be very valuable. If you only want to hit a single target with a fireball, aim 20' up from the center of his square. As long as the ceiling(if any) is at least 25' high it will cut down on friendly fire. And it will prob provide an interesting light show for anyone nearby.
Wow, that's so simple yet so ''not game logic'' that me or my players never even thought about it. I have to keep that noted. By the way, I don't know what you exactly mean by ''flammable ground'', but in the case of grass, it wouldn't catch on fire because spells with instant effect are too ''quick'' to catch anything on fire (well, that was how it worked in D&D). Truly flammable ground could only be something like an oil-covered floor.
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Thanks everyone! Of course, some spells obviously hit everything in their area (like Fireball), but some player and I were always arguing about wether his Entangle/Black Tentacles hit him or not and I had nothing to reply to ''but it's stupid if my own spell affects me''. I have to admit, it is a bit dumb that Black Tentacles summoned by a wizard can attack that same wizard... ever saw a wizard getting attacked by his own summons in a serious situation?
I've seen lots of stories where a wizard summons forces that turn on him as it's revealed he doesn't have the power to control them. Granted that's usually with creatures like demons and such, but the point remains.
I've seen lots of stories where a wizard summons forces that turn on him as it's revealed he doesn't have the power to control them. Granted that's usually with creatures like demons and such, but the point remains.
Reminds me of the Robe of Bones.
The skeleton or zombie is not under the control of the wearer of the robe, but may be subsequently commanded, rebuked, turned, or destroyed.
There's a reason why all my evokers take whatever skill will cover knowledge:Geometry...
Bridge Keeper: "What skill covers Knowledge:Geometry?"
King Arthur: "What do you mean? Euclidean or Riemannian geometry?"
Bridge Keeper: "Wha.. uh... I don't know that." *Gets hurled into the Gorge of Eternal Peril.
Sir Bedevere: "How do you know so much about geometry?"
King Arthur: "You have to know these things when you're a king, you know."
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Re: Robe of Bones Reminds me of my game when the wizard pulled off a fast goblin zombie from his robe of bones. He had no way of controlling it (didn't want to waste a scroll of control undead when he could add it to his spell book instead at some point).
So he threw the bone into the room, the zombie leaped up and immediately tried to attack the party. The Paladin pushed the zombie through into the next room and closed the door. After a few minutes of waiting for the sounds of battle to die down they then proceeded to follow the fast zombie's swath of destruction (it being largely immune to damage from the denizens of the dungeon who were armed mostly with piercing weapons). Finishing it off as it menaced the last denizen of the dungeon. It was... a unique strategy.
As for the second part, I would rule that a character who knew what was going on (understood how fireballs work, for instance) could delay an action to try and leap in the way, to cause the fireball to detonate on his person, instead of at the target beyond him, if he's within say a 5 ft. step of it's path (more than that, and I'm not sure I'd allow someone to move fast enough to get in the way of the fireball).
Readied action to shoot the fireball bead FTW. It's a hard target, but quite rewarding if you can hit it. Even better if you can make the spellcraft check to identify the fireball as it's being cast and can shoot the bead before it gets more than 20' from the caster.
As for the second part, I would rule that a character who knew what was going on (understood how fireballs work, for instance) could delay an action to try and leap in the way, to cause the fireball to detonate on his person, instead of at the target beyond him, if he's within say a 5 ft. step of it's path (more than that, and I'm not sure I'd allow someone to move fast enough to get in the way of the fireball).Readied action to shoot the fireball bead FTW. It's a hard target, but quite rewarding if you can hit it. Even better if you can make the spellcraft check to identify the fireball as it's being cast and can shoot the bead before it gets more than 20' from the caster.
Assuming you know it's going to be a fireball.
And assuming the GM will even let that work. I know I wouldn't. It's a magical fireball, not a rocket.
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As for the second part, I would rule that a character who knew what was going on...Assuming you know it's going to be a fireball.
Yeah, I mentioned that bit.
And assuming the GM will even let that work. I know I wouldn't. It's a magical fireball, not a rocket.
Hence the 'I would rule that...' part.
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As for the second part, I would rule that a character who knew what was going on (understood how fireballs work, for instance) could delay an action to try and leap in the way
Delay an action, or ready an action, I only ask because with a delayed action you only act on a new initiative, you aren't supposed to be able to interrupt an action when you delay.
And assuming the GM will even let that work. I know I wouldn't. It's a magical fireball, not a rocket.
Actually, it is a rocket. It's exactly a rocket. It's a physical object that moves forward rapidly in a straight line and explodes when it makes contact with something. It's a small rocket, for sure, but that's what it is.
Delay an action, or ready an action, I only ask because with a delayed action you only act on a new initiative, you aren't supposed to be able to interrupt an action when you delay.
You can't interrupt with a readied action either. Readying an action just allows you to go first, if/when your pre-established conditions have been met, then the trigger resolves itself accordingly.
You can't interrupt with a readied action either. Readying an action just allows you to go first, if/when your pre-established conditions have been met, then the trigger resolves itself accordingly.
That's true, you could ready to try to interrupt the casting(shoot the caster) but not to shoot the bead. Even though it physically travels from the finger to the burst point, the duration specified for this travel(spell duration) is listed as instantaneous.
But you could ready to cast a wall of stone(also instantaneous) spell in front of the fireball caster to get the fireball to explode on his face I think.
And assuming the GM will even let that work. I know I wouldn't. It's a magical fireball, not a rocket.It's a ball of fire. I don't think you can set it off that easily, like a bubble you burst with a prick.
And it's still such a way-out-there situation that it would hardly ever come up, and you'd basically always be better off with just shooting the caster when he casts, not waiting for him to finish - because if it's anything other than a fireball, you're screwed.
If it's a fireball, you're screwed, too, since I think it's phenomenally hard to hit that thing.
I had never really thought about it before, but if a wizard casts fireball and has it detonate in the middle of all the monsters. But the wizard's line of sight passes through his own fighter and enemies before getting the optimal location. My question is two parts, is there some kind of check to see if the wizard accidentally hits the fighter in the back with the fireball. And second, can an enemy choose to jump in front of a fireball, thus having it explode earlier than the wizard expected and having it blow back into their own party?
There is nothing in the rules about this but if a wizard were spamming fireballs I would allow someone to ready an action to take a fireball in the chest. It would still explode and the area effect would be centered on the guy who took the hit. I would also say that if you deliberately take a fireball you don't get a saving throw.\\
As for those who say it can't be done... have some imagination. This is why we have GMs and don't just play video games.
I had never really thought about it before, but if a wizard casts fireball and has it detonate in the middle of all the monsters. But the wizard's line of sight passes through his own fighter and enemies before getting the optimal location. My question is two parts, is there some kind of check to see if the wizard accidentally hits the fighter in the back with the fireball. And second, can an enemy choose to jump in front of a fireball, thus having it explode earlier than the wizard expected and having it blow back into their own party?There is nothing in the rules about this but if a wizard were spamming fireballs I would allow someone to ready an action to take a fireball in the chest. It would still explode and the area effect would be centered on the guy who took the hit. I would also say that if you deliberately take a fireball you don't get a saving throw.\\
As for those who say it can't be done... have some imagination. This is why we have GMs and don't just play video games.
I have an imagination, and it isn't what is keeping this from happening. The rules of the game are. By RAW you can't do it, even the semblance of the action requires an epic feat. If you want to have it happen, by all means house rule something up and do it in your game. The closest thing to doing this would be the Exceptional Deflection [Epic] feat and technically, even then you couldn't do it as the spell isn't being targeted on you. What is being posited would be another epic feat in the chain past that, allowing you to ready an action to basically deflect a spell that passes within a specific range from you (in order to make it work with in the confines of the game rules). Would it be worth the additional epic feat? Heck, could it even be considered balanced?
It's a ball of fire. I don't think you can set it off that easily, like a bubble you burst with a prick.
No, it isn't. It's a pea-sized bead that explodes in a ball of fire when it hits any solid object. Yes, it's a hard shot, and you have to know ahead of time (or make a really lucky guess) that he's going to cast a fireball. It's also hella cool, and on that ground and the fact that it doesn't break any rules, I allow it.
I have an imagination, and it isn't what is keeping this from happening. The rules of the game are. By RAW you can't do it, even the semblance of the action requires an epic feat. If you want to have it happen, by all means house rule something up and do it in your game. The closest thing to doing this would be the Exceptional Deflection [Epic] feat and technically, even then you couldn't do it as the spell isn't being targeted on you. What is being posited would be another epic feat in the chain past that, allowing you to ready an action to basically deflect a spell that passes within a specific range from you (in order to make it work with in the confines of the game rules). Would it be worth the additional epic feat? Heck, could it even be considered balanced?
By the power of RAW I spam you with weaksauce!! And I shower your game with mediocrity!!
The game isn't about RAW, it's about doing cool stuff. Go over to the rules forum and slaughter someone else's fun.
There isn't anything in RAW that addresses this one way or the other.
Edit +1 to Zurai's comment above.
If it's F*ing cool, and doesn't screw things up, and in particular if it's in a grey area then you are doing a serious disservice to your players by saying no.
The game isn't about RAW, it's about doing cool stuff. Go over to the rules forum and slaughter someone else's fun.There isn't anything in RAW that addresses this one way or the other.
Edit +1 to Zurai's comment above.
If it's F*ing cool, and doesn't screw things up, and in particular if it's in a grey area then you are doing a serious disservice to your players by saying no.
As a GM, my motto is "Don't say no...just determine difficulty."
As a GM, my motto is "Don't say no...just determine difficulty."
Just pick something higher than 90 or 100 or whatever it was to balance on a cloud. :)
So what is the AC/CMD of an instantaneous fireball streaking towards its target?
Love the concept, just not sure how I'd implement it in game. As others have said, realistically (hate using that word in conjunction with an RPG, but I've already used it so there you go) you're better off shooting the caster while he's casting it.
Is the fireball of a high level caster harder to hit than a fireball from a 5th level caster? It would seem very difficult regardless of level, and I don't think I would want it to be commonplace for high level archers to shoot high level casters' fireballs out of the sky. Loses its cool factor. Thoughts?
So what is the AC/CMD of an instantaneous fireball streaking towards its target?
Love the concept, just not sure how I'd implement it in game. As others have said, realistically (hate using that word in conjunction with an RPG, but I've already used it so there you go) you're better off shooting the caster while he's casting it.
Is the fireball of a high level caster harder to hit than a fireball from a 5th level caster? It would seem very difficult regardless of level, and I don't think I would want it to be commonplace for high level archers to shoot high level casters' fireballs out of the sky. Loses its cool factor. Thoughts?
To be honest I would think this is one of those things that I would just wing on the fly. You need #1 a readied action and #2 something you can interpose between the fireball and the target.
My WAG for how I would do it is that you would have to be within 5' of the path with a readied action. It would be a reflex save with the DC equal to the spells DC+5. Possible for someone agile but difficult.
If the players figured out a way to pull it off more frequently then I'd probably experiment with it.
Hmm...I think a readied Wall Of Force (or ice/stone/iron) cast 5' away from the fireball caster would be more fun...or maybe right in front of his fighter friend so that all that blasty stuff stays on their side of the wall.
The key thing I'd require is that the player say "I'm readying an action to cast a wall *here* whenever I detect that *that* wizard is casting a fireball spell." Then he'd have to make his Spellcraft check to detect it. There is no reason why it isn't allowed RAW. That is exactly what Ready An Action is for after all.
I had never really thought about it before, but if a wizard casts fireball and has it detonate in the middle of all the monsters. But the wizard's line of sight passes through his own fighter and enemies before getting the optimal location. My question is two parts, is there some kind of check to see if the wizard accidentally hits the fighter in the back with the fireball. And second, can an enemy choose to jump in front of a fireball, thus having it explode earlier than the wizard expected and having it blow back into their own party?There is nothing in the rules about this but if a wizard were spamming fireballs I would allow someone to ready an action to take a fireball in the chest. It would still explode and the area effect would be centered on the guy who took the hit. I would also say that if you deliberately take a fireball you don't get a saving throw.\\
As for those who say it can't be done... have some imagination. This is why we have GMs and don't just play video games.
I have an imagination, and it isn't what is keeping this from happening. The rules of the game are. By RAW you can't do it, even the semblance of the action requires an epic feat. If you want to have it happen, by all means house rule something up and do it in your game. The closest thing to doing this would be the Exceptional Deflection [Epic] feat and technically, even then you couldn't do it as the spell isn't being targeted on you. What is being posited would be another epic feat in the chain past that, allowing you to ready an action to basically deflect a spell that passes within a specific range from you (in order to make it work with in the confines of the game rules). Would it be worth the additional epic feat? Heck, could it even be considered balanced?
The fire ball has a path, thus why you need to make an attack roll. If you have a readied action to take the hit, I would up the AC of the roll to the individual's AC, so long as he is withing half movement. If he took it, he would take it with no save. If it was passing within 5ft of him, I would say full defense AC.
Please reference this epic feat, but keep in mind this is PF not DnD, and a lot of those 3e epic feats were not really epic at all.
Spellcasters in general do not enjoy any specific immunity to thier own spells unless specifically stated so in the individual spell description. So the caster will get nuked by his own ground zero fireball, entangled by his own entangle, etc. In the old 1st edition days many a caster got zapped by his own lightning bolt when the old insufficient range rebound occured.
Also, if casters were immune to their own spells, then spell reflection would not be nearly as much fun. *grin*