Director of Brand Strategy
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That would make for a really interesting Map Folio, I could imagine.
Yeah, and I imagine it wouldn't get the same complaints from subscribers as the AP-tied map packs do. It will be interesting to see how people react to the City Map Pack when it comes out.
If Paizo can hold off for at least two years before revising it, I will withdraw any and all complaints about it, and buy the revised book cheerfully.
If Paizo did release it before the two-year mark, couldn't you still purchase it later than that if fewer than 24 months is too soon? Nothing says anyone has to buy it on release.
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Creative Director
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I'm not trying to jerk, and my patronage to Paizo has been rock solid since PF AP#1. It's just to maintain that level of patronage, James, I need to tell you want I can and can't do. Replacing that book before it's two years old is just too much. If y'all can sweat it out till Autumn 2010 and I won't have such a problem with it.
Well... honestly, the thing that's REALLY going to tell us when to get this book out is when we sell out of the current printing of the campaign setting hardcover. Which is coming up faster than anyone here at Paizo thought (probably because of the success of the RPG)... which is why I'm starting to kick the notion around here on the boards to gauge reactions to the various options. Having our core campaign setting out of print for more than a couple of months is not good, and if we sell out well before Gen Con 2010 (which is looking VERY likely)... the book'll probably be out sooner than even I think.
I haven't purchased the Campaign Setting yet, but I'd very much like to.
I'm going to wait until the revised version comes out because I feel that the current version is "out dated."
So, while I wait for the revised version, my money will continue to burn a hole in my pocket.
The sooner the revised book comes out, the sooner I can give Paizo my money.
Ever since the CS book came out, it's been driving me crazy. Buy now or wait? It seems like I change my mind at least once a month.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Just looking over the release schedule for the Core, Chronicles and Companion books and the info they cover, if it was possible I would think a good time to release a new Campaign Setting book would be September or maybe October of 2010. That way it can incorporate all the new updates and information that will be in the Gamemastery Guide and Advenced Player's Guide.
Setting the precedent of including lots of non-core material might be dangerous, though, as then each year people expect any new rules supplements come out for the Campaign Setting to be updated again.
If Paizo did release it before the two-year mark, couldn't you still purchase it later than that if fewer than 24 months is too soon? Nothing says anyone has to buy it on release.
I'm a subscriber just like *you*, Mark. (I got cheated of my "Charter" tag by subscribing a few weeks late.) I don't want to horse around with asking Cosmo to cancel my subscription for one product. I remember the nightmarish nonsense that went around when the Item Decks were part of the subscriptions, and people vowing to cancel their subscription and then restart them after the cards shipped. I thought it was ridiculous then, and I wouldn't want to go there now just for my own convenience.
And if the books ends up being 20% new content, that's a hole in my collection.
It just sucks because I'm between jobs and I've been fortunate enough to not to have start cancelling anything.. yet. And I'm holding out hope that I'll get a job in a nick of time. Then I suppose I won't care so much.
But the last thing I feel like cheering about while I update my resume is another hardcover that is 1/5th new material.
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Well yeah, but it seems that Paizo managed to capture a big chunk of new players/former edition players, and once they buy flagship product 1 (core) they want to buy the flagship product 2 (CS) and hey, lookie, outdated information from older edition of the game ! Yay !
+1 for PFCS 2.0 - keep it out of subscription, and have it in a moderately priced PDF (hey, you did pay for the art already did you ?). This way folks like Watcher can keep their old CS and update when they are financially sound, those who have the hardcover but not the PDF (like me) can now jump one step ahead and well, that leaves the PDF + hardcover folks left.
But if I'm all right all the CS PDF sales went thru paizo.com anyway ? So, a discount on the new PDF and hey presto.
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Well think of it like this watcher, I think the soonest would could even begin to see the book would be Christmas 2010 or close to it. So if you don't have a new job by then, buying a new RPG book might be the least of your problems.
I know the feeling or did anyways. Right now I have a steady job that pays enough for me to make ends meet and subscribe to paizo 4 game lines and leave a little money for other RPG books or doing other stuff each month.
I nearly had to drop my AP subscription last year for similiar reasons but at the last moment i got a new job and now subscribe to all. So I get where your coming from and not trying to be snarky or anything.
Just saying if things get that bad, it won't be a major concern anymore is all.
Hopefully things will work out for you like they did me. Good luck.
PLEASE, don't call it something slightly different, put some extra crunch in it, and release it as a "complementary" book.... :)
We'll eventually HAVE to reprint the hardcover Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and when we do, we pretty much HAVE to update it to the new game. We're trying to figure out how best to handle a reprinting of the book and how that impacts folks who've already bought the 3.5 version, and it's a situation with a lot of complex problems, and we don't yet have solutions to them. Keep an eye out at paizo.com, though; when we DO figure it out, all will be revealed there.
Release a separate Companion with the Crunch, make the Fluff the campaign setting.
OR
Release the new PRPG Pathfinder Campaign Setting with lots and lots of new material!
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Creative Director
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Well think of it like this watcher, I think the soonest would could even begin to see the book would be Christmas 2010 or close to it. So if you don't have a new job by then, buying a new RPG book might be the least of your problems.
I suspect we'll HAVE to be seeing the book a lot sooner than Christmas 2010, actually...
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Well think of it like this watcher, I think the soonest would could even begin to see the book would be Christmas 2010 or close to it. So if you don't have a new job by then, buying a new RPG book might be the least of your problems.I suspect we'll HAVE to be seeing the book a lot sooner than Christmas 2010, actually...
Huh really? I am a bit surprised by that. Mostly cause I figured it would take you guys close to a year to get it on the shelves after you commite with how tightly you guys crank out products.
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Creative Director
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Huh really? I am a bit surprised by that. Mostly cause I figured it would take you guys close to a year to get it on the shelves after you commite with how tightly you guys crank out products.
Well... even if we DO increase the size of the book, the fact remains that the vast majority is done already. Especially if we put in 25 pages of monsters picked up from APs, or things like the Hellknight Prestige Class or expanded info on areas like Cheliax or Andoran or Katapesh or whatever. Same with the artwork; we have a LOT more artwork we can use that's more appropriate due to the numerous books we've done, just as we reused a lot of artwork in the Pathfinder RPG.
We'll still certainly put in some brand new words and art, but it's not as much as it sounds like—getting this book to the printer will be a LOT easier than getting a brand-new-from-scratch 320 page hardcover out. Which is what we're doing with the Advanced Player's Guide and the Gamemastery Guide.
In any case, like I said earlier, the REAL thing that's driving us to do this is the fact that our existing stock of the hardcover is going a lot faster than we'd anticipated. Again, likely due to the popularity of the new rules.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, though; getting the book out on a fast schedule without succumbing to a lot of the problems that afflicted the book the first time around is gonna be a bear.
Well think of it like this watcher, I think the soonest would could even begin to see the book would be Christmas 2010 or close to it. So if you don't have a new job by then, buying a new RPG book might be the least of your problems.
I know the feeling or did anyways. Right now I have a steady job that pays enough for me to make ends meet and subscribe to paizo 4 game lines and leave a little money for other RPG books or doing other stuff each month.
I nearly had to drop my AP subscription last year for similiar reasons but at the last moment i got a new job and now subscribe to all. So I get where your coming from and not trying to be snarky or anything.
Just saying if things get that bad, it won't be a major concern anymore is all.
Hopefully things will work out for you like they did me. Good luck.
Oh I know you weren't being snarky, and I appreciate the sympathy. I'm speaking more of frustration with cash flow than actual indignation that Paizo will revise the book. If I was working I wouldn't care.
Anyway, I have a "Paizo nest egg" that should see me through March. Odds are pretty damn good that I'll be working by then.. and I'm blessed that my wife has a good job that will see us fed and sheltered.
But your concern is much appreciated. :)
I think the book should come out at least after the Advanced Players' Guide so it can incorporate the new base classes into the setting more fully.
I would prefer to see a map in the book on pages in addition to the fold-out map. I like the fold-out map, but it's not convenient when you're just trying to see what two countries are beside each other.
I would also like to see the human ethnicities listed by region and perhaps a section on general, regional, ethnic, and racial traits. (You know, the two traits characters get at level 1 in the adventure paths.)
I think a feats section would be nice, as well as Golarion-specific monsters, and a section detailing how fiends (and celestials and other outsiders) impact Golarion. With the publication of Great Beyond and the book of devils, there's a lot more information available in this area, I would think.
In other words, I'm in support of it being a new version of the setting.
The first book I got in my subscription to Pathfinder Chronicles was Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting but I don't really feel bad about buying it again if it's revised and expanded with all that stuff. I'll feel better about it if the cover price is $40 rather than $50. I can mentally justify it on the version differences alone, but with all the changes proposed it doesn't need justification to be considered a new book.
If the country and deity entries are generally the same, those are the ones my players are going to be using the most so that just means I have two copies at the table for reference. (Though my players may be using Gods and Magic for the deity entries.)
I'd also suggest new cover art just to keep the two books distinct.
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Huh really? I am a bit surprised by that. Mostly cause I figured it would take you guys close to a year to get it on the shelves after you commite with how tightly you guys crank out products.Well... even if we DO increase the size of the book, the fact remains that the vast majority is done already. Especially if we put in 25 pages of monsters picked up from APs, or things like the Hellknight Prestige Class or expanded info on areas like Cheliax or Andoran or Katapesh or whatever. Same with the artwork; we have a LOT more artwork we can use that's more appropriate due to the numerous books we've done, just as we reused a lot of artwork in the Pathfinder RPG.
We'll still certainly put in some brand new words and art, but it's not as much as it sounds like—getting this book to the printer will be a LOT easier than getting a brand-new-from-scratch 320 page hardcover out. Which is what we're doing with the Advanced Player's Guide and the Gamemastery Guide.
In any case, like I said earlier, the REAL thing that's driving us to do this is the fact that our existing stock of the hardcover is going a lot faster than we'd anticipated. Again, likely due to the popularity of the new rules.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, though; getting the book out on a fast schedule without succumbing to a lot of the problems that afflicted the book the first time around is gonna be a bear.
Yeah I get that, I just thought you was firmly committed up to Gencon 2010 really, maybe things are not as tight as I thought for you guys. So i figured you would have trouble getting it sent to printers before Gencon 2010, then I was adding a couple of months to print and ship. I figure that would be soonest so gave it a slight bad out to Christmas.
But hey if it comes sooner thats cool too. I was just making a uneducated guess about the time it would take. :)
I think the book should come out at least after the Advanced Players' Guide so it can incorporate the new base classes into the setting more fully.
I would prefer to see a map in the book on pages in addition to the fold-out map. I like the fold-out map, but it's not convenient when you're just trying to see what two countries are beside each other.
I would also like to see the human ethnicities listed by region and perhaps a section on general, regional, ethnic, and racial traits. (You know, the two traits characters get at level 1 in the adventure paths.)
I think a feats section would be nice, as well as Golarion-specific monsters, and a section detailing how fiends (and celestials and other outsiders) impact Golarion. With the publication of Great Beyond and the book of devils, there's a lot more information available in this area, I would think.
In other words, I'm in support of it being a new version of the setting.
I support these ideas, especially the map one. Very practical idea.
And it's kind of a catch-22 that if EVERYONE "waits" for the reprint to come along, we won't sell through our current stock and thus won't NEED to reprint it.
Publishing is fun!
As rapidly as the current edition is selling right now, it doesn't seem like you have any problems getting the books out of your inventory.
But if you offered some kind of incentive to purchase the current book, I'm sure they would fly off the shelves even faster.
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This is also a good idea, but far less likely to manifest. it'd be great to have maps that show prevailing winds and climates, trade routs, continental plates and fault lines, longitude and latitude, ethnicity spreads, migration patterns, resources, and a whole lot more. There won't be enough room for that many maps though. We're gonna have to pick and chose the best and most useful ones. And there's a pretty good chance we'll only be able to pick and choose the BEST one.
I definitely understand your point about not being able to put all the cool little maps and whatnot in the new campaign guide. One idea to consider is putting the equator and tropics on the map (assuming they are located in the area). Placing those reference lines allows some deduction about the seasons, climate, etc. without having to do tons of extra work on your part. The main issues I see with fixing those reference lines are that it locks down exactly where the Inner Sea region is on the globe, and some work would have to be done to make sure that the distances are viable assuming an Earth-sized planet. The last point would be to quell comments from the more "detail oriented" folks about how things "just don't work that way".
/Paul
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I'd like to put my vote in for doing the reprint with additional pages, updated content etc! I understand if some people feel "cheated" but I honestly think they will be in the minority (although they will be a VOCAL minority, I'm sure). By this, I mean that I think Paizo has successfully shown over the last few years that it simply is NOT the kind of company to try and cheat their customers.
And, I'll bet Paizo will find some way to do right by those customers that already purchased the first printing ...
I will absolutely buy a copy when it comes out.
My thoughts on what should go in:
1. Update classes and other rules to be 100% Pathfinder - goes without saying
2. Print a map or maps in the book. The big poster map is great, but I agree that maps NEED to be printed in the book.
3. Correct the spelling error on the poster map! :)
4. Print some of the best stuff from the Adventure Path books. It always bums me out to hear about these great articles on Gods etc that appear in the AP's since, as I play them instead of DM them, I never get a chance to read them.
5. I agree that the new classes and anything else relevent from the Advanced Players Guide should be incorporated in the new edition.
So, last question ... is it ready for me to buy yet???? :)
So, this thing is basically just a couple of days shy of going to the printer (slight exaggeration on my part)?
May I suggest these two ways of appeasement to your existing customers:
These are all things you can look up quite easily.
In any case, like I said earlier, the REAL thing that's driving us to do this is the fact that our existing stock of the hardcover is going a lot faster than we'd anticipated. Again, likely due to the popularity of the new rules.
Hmmm. Slap a 50% off sticker on that sucker and watch them fly out the door! What a great way to test your motivation for this project, James! It's a Golarion Fire Sale!
(Of course, I'm speaking as someone who is dying to purchase an updated edition of the campaign guide.)
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Creative Director
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So, this thing is basically just a couple of days shy of going to the printer (slight exaggeration on my part)?
Oh GOD no. There's a lot of work to be done on it, and we still haven't actually committed to reprinting ANYTHING yet. Stock levels on the current printing are getting low, and we're watching them get lower and thus know when we'll need to make the decision on what to do. That time isn't here yet, but it's getting there.
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Well... it certainly IS worth pointing out that whatever we do, we're going to be trying VERY HARD not to "outdate" the existing hardcover. We've sold a LOT of them, and it's won awards, and it's barely over a year old. Obsoleting it is not a good thing. While we'll probably be adding some content to the book and certainly be clearing up errors and fixing confusing parts, we're going to be trying VERY hard not to remove anything from the book or change things to invalidate parts of the book. Things we do remove in the reprint/2nd edition of the book (or whatever we end up calling it) will be things that are simply Not Needed in the Pathfinder RPG. Stuff like the SRD cleric domains and the Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class, for example, since that stuff is now part of the core game experience.
What I'm saying is that if you want the book because you want to learn about Golarion and its people and nations, that part of the book (which is certainly the lion's share of the content) won't become outdated when we reprint the book. Flavor transcends rules, after all.
I think it's totally understandable (esp. considering the reasons you outlined, such as reprinting material that already exists in the core rules) you want to publish a revised edition of the campaign setting book. I don't think anyone in their right mind could "blame" you for doing that, even if they had bought the first printing. Also, like you noted, mechanics comprise only about 5-10% of the book, and the game *is* backwards compatible (and "coverting" whatever little needs to be changed is a breeze).
Having said that, if you guys want to be super nice, I wouldn't object to getting the added information as a free PDF; however, it's not a major issue for me, as I've enjoyed the book a lot and I consider my money well-spent as is. :)
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I agree that a revised expanded version of the book updated to PFRPG would be a good idea actually. I think it would help encourage all the new fans paizo picked up with the core book to jump on the world band wagon. Which is where a lot of paizo sales are so the more people they can encourage to do that the better for them as a company and us as fans. Since that means they make more money and can make more stuff then.
So, this thing is basically just a couple of days shy of going to the printer (slight exaggeration on my part)?Oh GOD no. There's a lot of work to be done on it, and we still haven't actually committed to reprinting ANYTHING yet. Stock levels on the current printing are getting low, and we're watching them get lower and thus know when we'll need to make the decision on what to do. That time isn't here yet, but it's getting there.
So.... two couples of days?
And moderate exaggeration?
My point was that this was sooner than anyone expected, and it may be that the first edition might not get that much time.
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Well... honestly, the thing that's REALLY going to tell us when to get this book out is when we sell out of the current printing of the campaign setting hardcover. Which is coming up faster than anyone here at Paizo thought (probably because of the success of the RPG)... which is why I'm starting to kick the notion around here on the boards to gauge reactions to the various options. Having our core campaign setting out of print for more than a couple of months is not good, and if we sell out well before Gen Con 2010 (which is looking VERY likely)... the book'll probably be out sooner than even I think.
I just bought the Campaign Setting in August 2009, and if you brought out a "Campaign Setting: Second Edition" for GenCon 2010, I'd still buy it. Yes, it needs to be throughly Pathfinder-ized (which includes regional and racial traits, and feat-conversion). And it needs some buffing of content and page count over and above that, to make it more enticing.
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I'm going to throw 1 more idea out there..
Make a conversion guide PDF. Yeah I know you're going to say those take time, but charge for it. $2-5 is perfectly reasonable to ask for a conversion pdf. The conversion pdf would ONLY contain the Pathfinder RPG changes. Nothing you guys add to the CS would be in it. None of the stuff that stayed the same would have more then 1 line, something like, "See page 123 of the Campaign Setting" (so that you're acknowledge the game material is there, but you're saying it's not needing updating.)
I'd say the same format you chose for the Pathfinder RPG guide. The item head with the page number, and the changes below it.
Since the majority of the mechanics are small, so would the entries in the CS conversion guide.
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Something like this would at the very least satisfy those not willing to jump into a new printing of the book just yet I think.
Slightly more radical idea, if you charge the $2-5 for the guide, maybe you guys could even set up some kind of coupon retrieval code through the paizo store so people that get the conversion guide get the $2-5 off the CS when/if they ever buy the new copy.
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Creative Director
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I suspect that a conversion guide for folks who use the first printing but want to do so with the Pathfinder RPG will happen. I'd like said guide to be free, in fact. It certainly won't be that long of a document if it's just updating the 3.5 stuff that needs updating... I doubt it'd be much over a page or two overall.
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"Well... even if we DO increase the size of the book, the fact remains that the vast majority is done already. Especially if we put in 25 pages of monsters picked up from APs, or things like the Hellknight Prestige Class or expanded info on areas like Cheliax or Andoran or Katapesh or whatever."
Hellknight and other Golarion specific, Pathfinder Society legal prestige classes, yes. Fluff from the AP's, yes. Expanded info on various nations, yes.
The 25 pages of updated monsters from the AP's (and hell, any 3.5 mods you put out) should be a separate book. Add some favorites ya'll left out of the Bestiary (FLUMPH, some more dino's and some OGL templates from 2nd party sources) and you have a great stop gap till the Bestiary 2 (or whatever it will be named) comes out.
Just 2 coppers worth.
Hm, fiddlesticks. I just (and I mean a few days ago) ordered the Campaign Rulebook, Gods and Magic and The Great Beyond.
But I suppose that as long as the fluff isn't changed, there shouldn't be much of an issue. I'll contemplate getting the updated one depending on how much use to the crunch I end up giving.
And count me in as someone who will proudly own a copy of both versions.
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I've owned the first one for about a year now and it's still sturdy and holding strong. If there was a way to get a sort of errata thing for the old book to a revised core Pathfinder version, that would be awesome. There's not a lot of crunch in the book anyway so I don't see how that would be huge (prcs, some gear in the back ... minor stuff).
To be honest though, I'm a book person ... I like them. I like shiney new things. And despite how much I will have hated myself for already owning the first 50 dollar book, I have to be honest with myself and say I'd buy a revised one eventually anyway.
... addiction ... it's not just for crack anymore >_>
I bought two of the original HCs, Ill buy a new one for sure whenever its released.
Good Stuff.
I have somewhat lightened up on this issue if that helps.
I would like to see the new book have some new content.
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James my only big problem with monsters in Campaign books or really any other books is, well hunting around for them. Remember which book had which monsters in them. Thats why my hope is to eventually see all the monsters from the AP's and other books eventually end up in bestiaries. I would like to be able to just have a few books full of monsters so I can easily find them.
Don't get me wrong I love the monsters in the AP's and other places but it is already starting to get to be a bit of a pain to remember what book they are all in. i am just thinking what it will be like in another year or two years and trying to remember which AP had the monster I wanted to use. Know what I mean?
I would not be opposed to a Monsters of Golarion Book. I think one of those every few years collecting all of the Monsters from the APs and other diabolitcal creations for that book would be great. Monster books are one of my favorites.
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I am all for the new and improved expanded version of the book. The more information that can be consolidated into this book the better. I am looking forward to the new version.
And Watcher - being it is an updated book I doubt that they are going to automatically make it a subscription item (although that would not bother me - it just does not seem like that is how they will distribute it).
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Well, let me just say that I don't buy pdfs. It's not that I wont - I can't. I live in Serbia and for some reason, you can not buy e-book from here using our credit cards - even American Express. I can order real paper book from Amazon, but I can't buy it's Kindle edition. So twice a year I make huge purchases in Canada via some cousins and every month or so I have friends traveling to Canada and back and they buy me books and comics and stuff like that. So, I don't have pdfs of Paizo products and my opinion is not influenced by them.
I think that I'd like to see limited changes to campaign setting at this moment. I think it would be better to wait perhaps two more years, and then publish huge book, like the PFRPG rules, which will include great deal of information from all of the Chronicles products. I would very much like to have (almost) all information on Golarion in one book. That goes for it's races, prestige classes, moons - you name it. That would be real Golarion 2.0.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Well, let me just say that I don't buy pdfs. It's not that I wont - I can't. I live in Serbia and for some reason, you can not buy e-book from here using our credit cards - even American Express. I can order real paper book from Amazon, but I can't buy it's Kindle edition.
Amazon may not be wiling to sell you eBooks, but there are no geographic restrictions on PDFs here at paizo.com. We do require you to have a Visa or MasterCard, though.
Unfortunately, I'm growing increasingly convinced that we won't have any other options but to run the risk of annoying some people in this way.
As many 3.5 Books as I have, buying the 3.5 Golarion book was a no brainer. I'm actually excited for the rerelease of the book and won't be annoyed in the least about rebuying it. I think having both would be complementary.
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If this book is re-released could it please not appear on the chronicles subscription.
I am one of the many subscribers who already have a copy and will probably not be thrilled to buy the big replacement (especially with the international shipping for big hardbacks).
I'm fairly active on these boards but I can imagine that some subscribers who are not on here regularly would find these to be a bit of an unwanted surprise.
I bought two of the original HCs, Ill buy a new one for sure whenever its released.
Good Stuff.
Don't get me wrong, I love books, but why purchase 3 copies?
You must have ample shelf space! :)
I bought two of the original HCs, Ill buy a new one for sure whenever its released.
Good Stuff.
Don't get me wrong, I love books, but why purchase 3 copies?
You must have ample shelf space! :)
Grubby-handed players might want to look at or borrow one. :P