I've been playing a dragon disciple now for fifteen levels in our Second Darkness campaign. He started out as a brb1/sor4 and went to dragon disciple after that. Whether the classes before DD are brd5 or brb4/sor1 or what not, matters little regarding the topic. Which is, that I've been quite happy with the prestige class. It's a good mix of melee and spell-casting ability, not really shining in either. Sure, the character would be more optimized staying single-classed but it wouldn't be a gish.
But then. I was shocked when I realized what DD 9-10 is about. You get sorcerer BAB, sorcerer saves, and only one caster level. The lost caster level is substituted by wings and the ability to use Dragon Form II twice a day. Why would I ever want to sacrifice a caster level for those? The character can anyway fly, through fly, overland flight or wings from the sorcerer levels. Which leaves only the dragon form. But changing into a dragon will make the character worse in combat and removes his spell-casting ability.
Instead of a capstone ability, DD gets robbed of power if he ever levels beyond DD8. How does that make sense?
So, now I'm finishing the campaign with a brb1/sor6/dd8.
As dragons are specifically called out as an example of a form which can cast spells, I don't see the problem.
I stand corrected. Still, being able to use a single 7th level spell twice a day isn't really worth a caster level. Especially when the spell isn't really that great. You get a few attacks at the cost of armor bonus, basically.
I also don't see the problem since DDs in 3.5 and previous editions received no caster levels, just extra spell slots.
The only thing I did not like is the reduction in attributes. I guess they had to do something to counter adding caster levels.
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I stand corrected. Still, being able to use a single 7th level spell twice a day isn't really worth a caster level. Especially when the spell isn't really that great. You get a few attacks at the cost of armor bonus, basically.Well, that is true. But DD isn't worth the caster levels in general anyway.
Especially if you never cared about caster levels in the first place. See my 20th level DD below. Weapons and armor chosen to keep the build simple(it was made as an example).
Human Male
Draconic(Gold) BL. Sorcerer1/Barbarian9/Dragon Disciple10
Hit Dice: 1d6+6+9d12+9+54+10d12+60+20 ( 293hp)
Fortitude:19=11+6+2 Reflex:6=6+0 Will:9=10-1 Bab:+16/+11/+6/+1 CMB:+22 CMD:32
Ac:27=10+9+3+0+5 Touch:10 Flat-Footed:27 Speed:40ft, Fly 60ft(average)
Str22(16+2L+4DD)
Dex10
Con22(16+2L+2h+2DD)
Int10(8+2DD)
Wis8
Cha16
Mithral Celestial Armor(+9 AC, acp-0, Max Dex+8, ascf 5% 20lbs)
Mithral Heavy Shield(+3 AC, acp-0, ascf 5%, 7 1/2Lbs)
Masterwork Longsword(1d8+6, 19-20/x2, 4Lbs, S) +23/+17/+12/+7
2 Claws(1d6+6+1d6 fire, x2, P&S)+22 6/day Can't be used with Sword or Shield
Bite(1d6+8+1d6 fire, x2, B,P&S)+22 gained with claws
Breath Weapon(11d6 fire, 30ft cone, 2/day, Dc:18 for half damage)
Skills
Linguistics: 1(for the Draconic Language)
Knowledge(arcana):7=-1+5+3
Perception:21=-1+19+3
Survival:16=-1+14+3
Fly:26=0+20+3+3
Intimidate:32=3+20+3+6
Feats: Empower Spell(1st), Power Attack(3rd), Toughness(5th), Vital Strike(9th), Weapon Focus(Longsword, 11th), Dazzling Display(Longsword, 13th), Shatter Defenses(15th), Improved Vital Strike(17th), Greater Vital Strike(19th)
Bonus Feats: Eschew Material(class bonus), Intimidating Prowess(human bonus), Skill Focus(Fly, BL bonus), Skill Focus(Knowledge{arcana}, BL bonus), Great Fortitude(BL bonus)
Spells per Day
Lv1:7 Dc:14
Lv2:7 Dc:15
Lv3:6 Dc:16
Lv4:4 Dc:17
Spells Known
Lv0: Acid Splash, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Dancing Lights,
Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead
Lv1: Mage Armor, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Burning Hands(5d4+5), Magic Missile(4d4+4),
True Strike
Lv2: Resist Energy, Darkness, Blindness/Deafness, False Life
Lv3: Fly, Ray of Exhaustion, Haste
Lv4: Fear, Enervation
Barbarian Abilities
Rage: 26 points
Rage Powers: Clear Mind, Guarded Stance(+2, rounds), Powerful Blow(+3), Renewed Vigor(2d8+)
Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense+3, Damage Reduction 1/-
Rage Stats
HP: +40
Str26+8
Con26+8
Fortitude:21=11+8+2 Will:11=10-1+2 CMB:+24 CMD:34
Ac: 27=10+9+3+0+5-2 Touch:8 Flat-Footed:25
Masterwork Longsword(1d8+8, 19-20/x2, 4Lbs, S) +25/+20/+15/+12
2 Claws(1d6+8+1d6 fire, x2, P&S)+24 6/day Can't be used with Sword or Shield
Bite(1d6+10+1d6 fire, x2, B,P&S)+24 gained with claws
Intimidate:34=3+20+3+8
Form of the Dragon II stats
HP: +60
Str28
Con26
Fortitude:21=11+8+2 Will:9=10-1 CMB:+25 CMD:35
Ac:21=10+0+0+0+11 Touch:10 Flat-Footed:21 Speed:40ft, Fly 90ft(poor)
DR 5/magic [See Dragon Type] Resistance
Bite(2d6+13, x2, B,P&S)+24
2 Claws(1d8+9, x2, P&S)+24
2 Wings(1d6+9, x2, B)+24
Tail Slap(1d8+9, x2, B)+24
Breath Weapon(8d8, Dc:?)
Intimidate:35=3+20+3+9
Rage and Form of the Dragon II stats
HP: +100
Str32
Con30
Ac:19=10+0+0+0+11-2 Tch:8 Flat-footed:19 CMB:+28 CMD:38 Speed: 40ft, Fly 90ft(poor)
DR 5/magic [See Dragon Type] Resistance
Bite(2d6+16, x2, B,P&S)+27
2 Claws(1d8+11, x2, P&S)+27
2 Wings(1d6+11, x2, B)+27
Tail Slap(1d8+11, x2, B)+27
Breath Weapon(8d8, Dc:?)
Intimidate:37=3+20+3+11
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I also don't see the problem since DDs in 3.5 and previous editions received no caster levels, just extra spell slots.
The only thing I did not like is the reduction in attributes. I guess they had to do something to counter adding caster levels.
I wish it still changed your type to dragon in PFRPG though, that was one of my few reasons I loved the PrC so much.
As dragons are specifically called out as an example of a form which can cast spells, I don't see the problem.I stand corrected. Still, being able to use a single 7th level spell twice a day isn't really worth a caster level. Especially when the spell isn't really that great. You get a few attacks at the cost of armor bonus, basically.
I noticed the same thing (since I'm working on a future Dragon Disciple as well). In fact, I would say that the usefulness drops off after level 6 (assuming you don't care about getting +2 Int at level 8). The first four levels are great for a melee fighter, though.
And my Dragon (actually, Abyssal) Disciple is a monk, so Form of the Dragon II is a pretty good buff spell for him (since he doesn't use armor or weapons anyways). Now I'd also argue that later levels of monk are a waste, but that's a topic for a different thread...
No, they didn't. When you are buffing something that is unplayably bad, you don't need to take something away to "balance" the buffs.I also don't see the problem since DDs in 3.5 and previous editions received no caster levels, just extra spell slots.
The only thing I did not like is the reduction in attributes. I guess they had to do something to counter adding caster levels.
I agree they didn't have to but they felt like they had to. They also removed darkvision which also disagree with.
Really, I do not have any real problem with the changes because I can still make some formidable DD builds. Let us see what they do with DD for epic levels and then I will suggest more if they let me down.
3.5 Level 20 DD was pretty cool! The toon basically turns into a bipedal dragon.
Epic Dragon Disciple
Level Special
11 Natural armor +5
12 Wing slam
13 Breath weapon increase
14 Natural armor +6
15 Bonus feat, enlargement, blindsense increased to 90'
16 Breath weapon increase
17 Natural armor +7, tail slap
18 Spell resistance
19 Breath weapon increase
20 Bonus feat, natural armor +8, blindsense increased to 120'
I noticed the same thing (since I'm working on a future Dragon Disciple as well). In fact, I would say that the usefulness drops off after level 6 (assuming you don't care about getting +2 Int at level 8). The first four levels are great for a melee fighter, though.
And my Dragon (actually, Abyssal) Disciple is a monk, so Form of the Dragon II is a pretty good buff spell for him (since he doesn't use armor or weapons anyways). Now I'd also argue that later levels of monk are a waste, but that's a topic for a different thread...
I thought for Dragon Disciple that you had to have the Dragon bloodline as a class requirement.
Nope, but you get more Draconic powers if you do.
I guess to sum it up -
If you take Draconic bloodlines you become a full DD at 20 (10 Sorc/10 DD). If not, then you are a hybrid DD.
I thought for Dragon Disciple that you had to have the Dragon bloodline as a class requirement.
I worked out a variant with my DM.
I would recommend finishing up as an Eldritch Knight. You definitely qualify.
It's just better to take the bloodline because you can not become a full DD without it. In other words, no power of the wyrms in which you become immune to the energy of your breath weapon and couple of other things.
I would recommend finishing up as an Eldritch Knight. You definitely qualify.
I agree and one of my test builds has 10 levels in Eldritch Knight.
Nope, but you get more Draconic powers if you do.
I guess to sum it up -
If you take Draconic bloodlines you become a full DD at 20 (10 Sorc/10 DD). If not, then you are a hybrid DD.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
If you are a Bard, then that does not apply does it... ;)
If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer (instead in Bard), he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained.
So I guess the true answer should be if you have sorcerer levels - yes. If you are Bard\DD, no but you do get to choose a bloodline feat as you advance in DD.
It's just better to take the bloodline because you can not become a full DD without it. In other words, no power of the wyrms in which you become immune to the energy of your breath weapon and couple of other things.
Going with Draconic Sorceror vs. Bard is a good choice b/c your BL Ability progression is accelerated (and if you like Sorceror Spell-List vs. Bard). But taking *10 levels* of Sorceror? For what? Why not just take 20 Levels of Draconic Sorceror and learn Draconic Form 1/2/3 (which DD doesn't even get) and maybe Transformation if you want to Buff up and wade into melee every once in a while?
Similar to the build recommended by Dragonborn, I recommend a more melee-heavy build.
Here's a mock-up I did when DD was discussed earlier: (Sorc1/Barb11/DD8)
(The final skill modifiers aren't all 100% accurate (ranks are), and I mistakenly thought Enlarge Person & Dragon Form 1 COULD be combined when I wrote it up. The stats don't include ANY magical gear: It's essentially "naked" beyond the non-magical weapons I included to show attack stats)
I think getting one more 8th Level+ Barbarian Rage Power is generally more effective than Dragon Form II, but DD 9-10 *is* an option : the main benefit is being Large sized while in Dragon Form (Polymorph Effects can't combine) and more Pseudo-Temporary HPs, but Large Size will already have been available to you for a LONG time outside of Dragon Form (Enlarge Person) - Incidentally, 3.5 DD's Capstone (Draconic Creature Type) required you blow a 2nd Level Slot (Alter Self) to achieve what a 1st Level Slot (Enlarge Person) does - while the PrC didn't advance Spell Levels at all - Ouch!