Okay. Looking through the new Bestiary and one thing really jumped out at me. The Rakshasa. I say this because I am reading the Curse of the Crimson Throne series in prep to run it as a DM.
The 3rd module "Escape from Old Korvosa" has a large number of Rakshasa in it. I certainly cannot use them as modified in the Bestiary. They have the same DR and SR but have had their hitpoints pretty much doubled and their offensive melee ability heavily increased as well.
While the module knocks them down to CR8 by calling them glass cannons that were overrated at CR10 I think the Bestiary has now done the opposite. Now Rakshasas are going to be killing machines. Even when a party figures out the vulnerability a Rak is still going to do huge damage since they will have double the staying power. This doesnt even account for the Shield and Mage Armor spells that a party will be hard pressed to dispel and will give the Rak a 30 plus AC that only the chief tank will be able to barely hit.
So was it intentioal for them to go from the weaknes CR10 foe to easily the srongest? Also any suggestions on how to use them in COTCT without total TPK?
Easy, sounds like they are now really CR-10. If they were CR-10, you'd have to have (CR 8 x 2 = CR 9, CR 9 * 2 = CR 10, or four = CR-10), so divide the numbers by 4 to get back to CR 10. If there were supposed to be 12 before, make it three now. If there were 40, make it ten. Just my suggestion.
As mentioned, the 3.5 Rakshasa was really more of a CR8 monster. One of the goals of the Bestiary was to correctly CR all monsters; for quite a few of them, that involved either making them stronger (Rakshasa) or weaker (dragons).
Would it be possible to have "(CotCT spoilers)" added to the title of this thread?
the actual strength of them versus their CR was intentional.
Yes, and the actual strength of them versus their CR is intentional now, too.
The problem with the under-CRing of dragons before is that it isn't stated anywhere in the rules that dragons were under-CR'd. That means that dragons broke the compact between the game designers and the people who are using their game. The designers said, "Here is a system where you can quickly and reliably tell how much of a threat a monster is compared to your party, so that you can easily put together encounters of an intended difficulty level!". Then they went and made certain monsters that were intentionally over-powered for their rating. That meant that DMs couldn't trust the CR of ANY monster, because who knew whether the CR was correct or not?
Paizo fixed that. Every CR10 monster is roughly equivalent in the amount of party resources it will consume compared to every other CR10 monster. If you'd tried that comparison between a CR10 rakshasa and a CR10 dragon in 3.5, you'd find that the party that would steamroll the rakshasa would get barbequed by the dragon.
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The Rakshasas have ho-hum Fort and Will saves, and they really do funny amount of damage per round (around 20 on a full attack which connects with everything). A Fire Giant does 77 dmg with a fully connecting full attack, 103 if he Power Attacks. You can actually heal up thru a fight with Rakshasa while the party dispels his buffs, targets his saves or just wallops him to the ground.
So was it intentioal for them to go from the weaknes CR10 foe to easily the srongest? Also any suggestions on how to use them in COTCT without total TPK?Easy, sounds like they are now really CR-10. If they were CR-10, you'd have to have (CR 8 x 2 = CR 9, CR 9 * 2 = CR 10, or four = CR-10), so divide the numbers by 4 to get back to CR 10. If there were supposed to be 12 before, make it three now. If there were 40, make it ten. Just my suggestion.
Right idea, wrong calculation. Two CR 8's = CR 10, so divine by 2. That should work for several encounters.
Possibly work up a "lesser" replacement for the single encounters, or for encounters with 2-4 that really need there to be 2-4 creatures.
So was it intentioal for them to go from the weaknes CR10 foe to easily the srongest? Also any suggestions on how to use them in COTCT without total TPK?Easy, sounds like they are now really CR-10. If they were CR-10, you'd have to have (CR 8 x 2 = CR 9, CR 9 * 2 = CR 10, or four = CR-10), so divide the numbers by 4 to get back to CR 10. If there were supposed to be 12 before, make it three now. If there were 40, make it ten. Just my suggestion.Right idea, wrong calculation. Two CR 8's = CR 10, so divine by 2. That should work for several encounters.
Possibly work up a "lesser" replacement for the single encounters, or for encounters with 2-4 that really need there to be 2-4 creatures.
Meh, hard to do this from memory at work. :) Thanks for catching that.
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Well, your'e not supposed to compare monsters vs. monsters, but monsters against a PC party. And an average, balanced lvl 10 PC party will take down a Rakshasa without major hiccups. Sure, it will be a time-consuming and frustrating fight, but still I don't any major issues with the monster as it as.
Creative Director
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The thing about rakshasas is that, yeah, they have great defenses but once you know what those defenses are, a well-prepared party will get some align weapon spells and lots of piercing weapons AND some spells that don't require SR checks to function (like conjuration spells). Rakshasas are strange creatures... if you don't know you're up against them you're in trouble. But if you're armed right, they're pretty easy to fight.
That said, the Bestairy rakshasas ARE tougher. Here's the two ways I'd handle this if I were running "Escape from Old Korvosa."
1) The rakshasas in the adventure are degenerates; after living in society the way they have for so long, they're weaker than most rakshasas and still use the 3.5 stats for them.
2) The rakshasas are as they exist in the Bestiary, but there's just a LOT fewer of them in the adventure. As a general rule, you can handle this by simply halving the number of rakshasa encountered. And by reducing (or just eliminating) the class levels of others encountered.
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1. The Rakshasa has no mirror image by default. You must have confused it with minor image (yeah, happens to me as well.)
2. Bum rush it. It's Pathfinder, casting while threatened is no longer a breeze and Rakshasa has CL 7, +3 casting stat and no Combat Casting so casting defensively is a problem. And even if, damage spells are never battle winners, and DC 16 spells are not much of a trouble at lvl 10.
It can't fly / teleport, so getting away from you is a problem,
3. grease, stinking cloud, black tentacles, fog spells .. and god forbid if SC is in play, orbs ahoy. SR is powerful, but there are means of countering it.
4. Dispel the bugger. I assume that any self-respecting party has a couple of dispels handy at that point.
4. summon some nice, tough monster. With a lot of HP.
5. If you have a dedicated maneuver monkey, go for it. The CMD is not that great.
6. Once you have the kitty cornered: just power attack with 2h weapons until you chip the HP off. And in case it manages a rare soundly damaging full attack, have the cleric sigh loudly and throw some heals.
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Do what you do when you're first level and fighting a quasit.
Tanglefoot, grapple and drown the sucker. Go all Gitmo on his furry butt. Damage Resistance and Spell Resistance only go so far.
Just don't try this on the Tarrasque. He's harder to get in a full nelson, and they don't make buckets big enough to dunk his head into...
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The thing about rakshasas is that, yeah, they have great defenses but once you know what those defenses are, a well-prepared party will get some align weapon spells and lots of piercing weapons AND some spells that don't require SR checks to function (like conjuration spells). Rakshasas are strange creatures... if you don't know you're up against them you're in trouble. But if you're armed right, they're pretty easy to fight.
That said, the Bestairy rakshasas ARE tougher. Here's the two ways I'd handle this if I were running "Escape from Old Korvosa."
1) The rakshasas in the adventure are degenerates; after living in society the way they have for so long, they're weaker than most rakshasas and still use the 3.5 stats for them.
2) The rakshasas are as they exist in the Bestiary, but there's just a LOT fewer of them in the adventure. As a general rule, you can handle this by simply halving the number of rakshasa encountered. And by reducing (or just eliminating) the class levels of others encountered.
Are there any hints in Escape from Old Korvosa that I missed? As far as I can tell the party will wander into the dungeon pretty clueless and get jumped by not just a Rakshasa but one with levels of monk. In this situation there is no prep and one cannot really retreat well to get prepped and come back.
Also as a side item. Clerics in the PFRPG do not have a single SR ignoring spell to throw at a Rakshasa. All they can do is align weapons if they have the spell handy, or summon meatshields of Summon Monster. Since Rakshasas do not have spellcraft but can read minds I would expect one in battle to throw a magic missle spell at any caster trying to summon allies with full round casting spells.
There are lots of rumours surrounding the Arkonas that hint that they're not what they seem (especially in the Guide to Korvosa). Certainly my players had worked it out and prepped for Rakshashas.
Our party just went in to the fight against Bahur with 3 party members participating and killed him. We did lose one party member. That was a rakshasa with more HP than the Bestiary ones plus a bunch of class levels; a CR 14 encounter with a party of 3 level 8s. We should have TPK'd, according to you; instead, we used clever tactics. And we didn't know ahead of time that he was a rakshasa (not far enough ahead of time to specifically prepare for him, anyway -- we did learn there were rakshasas around because we found the rakshasa statues).
There are ways around his excellent defenses, even in core, even for an unprepared party. Acid arrow, for example, is SR: No and a ranged touch attack, that deals continuous damage over time (and thus forces concentration checks). There's also true strike for bypassing his high AC.
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Creative Director
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Properly used a Rakshasa can quite easily TPK a 10th level party unless the party is prepped for him and either ambush him or start on equal footing. Unfortunately the abilities of a Rakshasa will pretty much guaruntee the fight will happen how he wants it to happen and when he wants it to happen.
I kind of think that "Properly used" is the wrong way to describe a rakshasa that uses every available resource and a fair amount of GM fiat to make everything work to its advantage, since it's easy to overlook the fact that rakshasas are prideful and arrogant. I can see them underestimating the party and making some bad decisions to taunt and humiliate the PCs when, perhaps, they should be focusing on doing as much damage as possible. A "properly played" rakshasa in my opinion is a tough fight that the PCs should feel they're being toyed with and tormented but that by taking advantage of the rakshasa's arrogance they can survive and win.
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There are lots of rumours surrounding the Arkonas that hint that they're not what they seem (especially in the Guide to Korvosa). Certainly my players had worked it out and prepped for Rakshashas.
Are there any hints in Escape from Old Korvosa that I missed? As far as I can tell the party will wander into the dungeon pretty clueless and get jumped by not just a Rakshasa but one with levels of monk. In this situation there is no prep and one cannot really retreat well to get prepped and come back.Also as a side item. Clerics in the PFRPG do not have a single SR ignoring spell to throw at a Rakshasa. All they can do is align weapons if they have the spell handy, or summon meatshields of Summon Monster. Since Rakshasas do not have spellcraft but can read minds I would expect one in battle to throw a magic missle spell at any caster trying to summon allies with full round casting spells.
In the actual AP there are hints as far back as
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Creative Director
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Also as a side item. Clerics in the PFRPG do not have a single SR ignoring spell to throw at a Rakshasa. All they can do is align weapons if they have the spell handy, or summon meatshields of Summon Monster. Since Rakshasas do not have spellcraft but can read minds I would expect one in battle to throw a magic missle spell at any caster trying to summon allies with full round casting spells.
Well... the cleric's standard role is not offense, but defense and support. The cleric in a rakshasa battle should probably be doing things like casting align weapon, dispel magic, healing magic, summoning monsters to distract or provide flanking, and so on.
How did anyone in your party know what a Rakshasa was? The Rakshasa from House Arkona appear to be the only ones in the region if not the entire Inner Sea since they came over in a rather specific manner. More likely for in-character thinking would be to see all those animal head human body statues and think strange Shoanti totem creatures.
Knowledge: Planes. I made the DC of the check. Rakshasas are Outsiders and are thus identifiable with a DC 10-15+CR Knowledge: Planes check (10-15 is based on how rare you determine them to be; there's no text in the module that declares that they're particularly rare). Since they're treated as CR8 in the module, that's anywhere from a CR18 to a CR23 check. Considering that the Harrow Point uses for that particular module include getting to reroll Intelligence checks and getting to add +5 to Intelligence checks, it's not that hard a check to make.
So its a D20 + 10 to make a CR25. Using the second point you have two chances at making a 25% chance sucess.
I don't think I have ever played in a party where someone didn't have Knowledge: Planes trained to full. The party wizard with a 20 intelligence thus would more likely have a K:P bonus of +15 (7 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 intelligence), for a 65% chance of identifying a rakshasa without having to spend ANY harrow points on rerolls, and do note that the rerolls granted here are specifically allowed to be done as long as you spend harrow points on them. After one reroll there's an 88% chance to identify a rakshasa; after two there's a 96% chance.
Then that's their fault. A HUGE portion of mid-to-high level enemies are Outsiders. Not knowing the least thing about their deadliest and increasingly-more-common foes is a Bad Thing. There's no need to handhold them. Like I said, we killed a CR+6 Rakshasa undermanned, and didn't have any time to prepare with our knowledge ahead of the fight. The SR was revealed on the very first attack, because my Warlock's Eldritch Blast fizzled. The huge AC and high DR were revealed on the second attack, because the dwarven waraxe wielding fighter was only able to hit the guy on a natural 20 and couldn't confirm the crit, and his attack that landed only ended up dealing like 5 or 10 damage. We knew everything important about that fight within the first two initiative ticks, without having to make a knowledge check.
Unless an AP advertises planar travel it seems silly to take it.
Name me ANY AP that doesn't include numerous outsiders by the middle of the path. Hell, you start seeing outsiders in CotCT in module 2 (the leukodaemons). I submit that it's incredibly silly to go into any AP and have no one able to handle the big three critter identification Knowledge skills (arcana for dragons and constructs, planes for outsiders, and religion for undead -- those three cover about 75% of the major opponents you're likely to face). Depending on the AP you might want to take Nature or Local as well (fey, giants, respectively).
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I will have to drop hints. I can tell you that no one in my party will even have that skill (Knowledge: the Planes) much less have it trained to max.
Really? I guess it all comes down to playstyles.
In my experience, party wizards (or the equivalent) always have at least one rank in most knowledge skills, and Planes is one of the more popular early choices for spending that skill point.
Hell, CoT gives use for K:Planes right out the gate. Hooray for teiflings!
Unless an AP advertises planar travel it seems silly to take it.Name me ANY AP that doesn't include numerous outsiders by the middle of the path. Hell, you start seeing outsiders in CotCT in module 2 (the leukodaemons). I submit that it's incredibly silly to go into any AP and have no one able to handle the big three critter identification Knowledge skills (arcana for dragons and constructs, planes for outsiders, and religion for undead -- those three cover about 75% of the major opponents you're likely to face). Depending on the AP you might want to take Nature or Local as well (fey, giants, respectively).
One reason why I don't run modules. Too much crutching on outsiders. The average module has so many outsider's in it you wonder what the planes look like, so empty and lonely with only a few breeding stables where outsiders are born before being sent to the material plane.
When my players run into an outsider, it's a rare thing, an unusual thing, a major thing. Usually they run into wild beasts or animals, or sentient foes from this plane with levels in classes. So when they do run into something wierd, it's special, it's a treat, not 'Ho hum, another planar ooze creature, that's what, the 20th this week?'.
That was really nonconstructive and a little insulting.
EDIT: Also pretty amusing in a thread about CotCT, because it's actually fairly light on the outsiders (incidental contact in module 2, lots of native outsiders in module 3, basically nothing in module 4, and limited but plot-important outsiders in modules 5 and 6).
That was really nonconstructive and a little insulting.
EDIT: Also pretty amusing in a thread about CotCT, because it's actually fairly light on the outsiders (incidental contact in module 2, lots of native outsiders in module 3, basically nothing in module 4, and limited but plot-important outsiders in modules 5 and 6).
Not sure how my comment on my experience with modules, and stating one reason why I don't use them, is off topic for a thread about modules. Nor do I see how it is insulting to you at all? Unless you write modules that are loaded to the gills with outsiders? Then I could see that as being insulting to you.
I suppose I should know by now, anything that is in the least way a criticism of modules is going to be received 100% negatively and considered an insult. Don't know why I bother sometimes.
What I find Ironic (capital I) is that my comment was in response to someone else commenting that almost every AP they come across is loaded with Outsiders, yet my comment that that is one reason why I don't use modules is considered insulting. Frankly, I find that a little insulting. That an honestly expressed opinion is degraded because it doesn't fit with your happy happy joy joy love of modules.
EDIT: Oh, and for your information Zurai, this is not a thread about modules, it's a thread about how Rakshasa are way uber powerful now. I don't know why I assume people know what they are talking about when it comes to thread topics without double checking.
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Creative Director
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... it's a thread about how Rakshasa are way uber powerful now.
And to get things back on track... I don't think they ARE way uber powerful. They're actually just finally LEGITIMATELY a CR 10 monster. CR 10 is not a pushover. It's tough. Rakshasas in 3.5 never really got to be tough, and now they are.
... it's a thread about how Rakshasa are way uber powerful now.And to get things back on track... I don't think they ARE way uber powerful. They're actually just finally LEGITIMATELY a CR 10 monster. CR 10 is not a pushover. It's tough. Rakshasas in 3.5 never really got to be tough, and now they are.
Sorry,
Agreed, they do seem to be a very strong CR 10. And there's nothing wrong with that. There should be a range in each CR, from weak to strong. Part of the GM's job is to look at the range and say 'Ok, my group can handle A and B's a cakewalk, but C's a TPK waiting to happen'.And, as any GM with experience can tell you, sometimes the strong CR monster can be a cakewalk for a particular group, while the weak CR might be the TPK waiting to happen.
I was in a game where the GM set up a dungeon ahead of time and put in a CR 8 trap, figuring ok, they are all 10th or 9th level, no big deal. It was a stupid 'teleport in a swarm of fire ants' trap. But, when he set it up we had a warmage in the group, and when we got to it, the warmage had died. So there was no magic user in the group. Result? We couldn't disable the magic trap and couldn't kill off the stupid swarms that kept attacking. We weren't in any real danger, we could outrun the swarms, but we couldn't get past them. :)
Took us 4 hours to finally get past a stupid trap that was 2 levels below us in CR. ;) We just didn't have the right tools. Same thing can happen with any monster of a given CR, the group might be missing the crucial skills/abilities for that monster, so you have to judge the CR of the monster against your group.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hmm, Lets take half ranks. at level 10 that's 5 ranks, + Class skill mod, + stat (we'll eyeball low and assume a 16) that's an 11. DC 25, 35% chance. Not bad for a half trained skill.
Assuming you'd allow a circumstance bonus for religion (given the article in the AP, I'd swing it) you could get down to 45%
Paladin's smite evil will go through the Rak like a hot (holy) knife through butter. While Rakshaha don't have the evil subtype, per my PDF, that's still +10 damage (assuming a 10th level Pally) and all of the damage ignores the DR. BAB + Str (or dex) + Cha + Misc) I'm looking at (safe to assume) +15 before weapons or feats.
9th level figther, figure 18 strength, that's +15 to hit before feats (+9 BAB, +2 weapon training, +4 strength) add in a +2 pig sticker, +1 for weapon focus, and we're looking at +18 to hit. (+16 with Power attack) sword will do (assuming longsword) 1d8 +4(strength) +2(Weapon Specialization) +2(magic) +2(Weapon training) and maybe an additional +4 (WS) This is before vital strike and the like.
9th level wizard/Sorcerer Glitterdust, acid arrow, Summon Monster X, Stoneskin (on self or fighter) Black Tenticles, heck even cloudkill for the wizard. Abyssal sorcerer will have Stoneskin as a freebie a fair strength, and her summons will have Dr 4/good. Summon Monster IV has the hound archon with its bite (which will bypass DR) and if you call 1d4+1 with summon monster IV, flanking and tearing is an option.
Is it going to be a tough fight? Yes. Might even consume about a quarter of the resources of a CR 10 party <i>without preperation</i>. Funny how that works.
That was really nonconstructive and a little insulting.
EDIT: Also pretty amusing in a thread about CotCT, because it's actually fairly light on the outsiders (incidental contact in module 2, lots of native outsiders in module 3, basically nothing in module 4, and limited but plot-important outsiders in modules 5 and 6).
Not sure how my comment on my experience with modules, and stating one reason why I don't use them, is off topic for a thread about modules. Nor do I see how it is insulting to you at all? Unless you write modules that are loaded to the gills with outsiders? Then I could see that as being insulting to you.
I suppose I should know by now, anything that is in the least way a criticism of modules is going to be received 100% negatively and considered an insult. Don't know why I bother sometimes.
What I find Ironic (capital I) is that my comment was in response to someone else commenting that almost every AP they come across is loaded with Outsiders, yet my comment that that is one reason why I don't use modules is considered insulting. Frankly, I find that a little insulting. That an honestly expressed opinion is degraded because it doesn't fit with your happy happy joy joy love of modules.
EDIT: Oh, and for your information Zurai, this is not a thread about modules, it's a thread about how Rakshasa are way uber powerful now. I don't know why I assume people know what they are talking about when it comes to thread topics without double checking.
Second: It's insulting because you're acting superior to everyone else because you refuse to play modules. It's not insulting because you don't like the modules. I don't care if you don't like the modules. It's insulting because you imply that you're better than everyone else who does like using the modules. It's insulting because your use of hyperbole is way over the top. It's insulting because you didn't even know enough about CotCT to place your remarks in the proper context and instead slammed it along with every other module and adventure path.
Third: I never said anything about it being off-topic. Can you stick to being insulted about things I said rather than things you made up in your brain?
Right idea, wrong calculation. Two CR 8's = CR 10, so divine by 2. That should work for several encounters.
I love honest typos like this that end up having an entirely different game meaning. :)
We never divine by two. It is hard enough to get even one person to play a cleric in our campaign. Two would be impossible.Right idea, wrong calculation. Two CR 8's = CR 10, so divine by 2. That should work for several encounters.I love honest typos like this that end up having an entirely different game meaning. :)
No, not "the divine" (as in "godlike"), but "to divine" (as in "to fortell"). You can do that with a diviner, too.
Or a coin. :)