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So in a previous thread concerning thrown weapons. James Jacobs stated that as far as the rules are concerned thrown weapons are technically classified as melee weapons despite the fact that they can be hurled. Now under Death Attack description for Assassin it states that in order to make a Death Attack a assassin must study his victim for 3 rounds and succeed in making a sneak attack with a Melee weapon.
So does that mean I can make a Death attack with a thrown weapon from 30ft away? Or is that against the intent of the rule?
Also the language seems a murky. It states if the victim recognizes the assassin as a enemy he cannot be death attacked. So a battle breaks out and I hide for and observe a enemy for 3 rounds, I can't death attack him, because he knows I mean him harm?
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So does that mean I can make a Death attack with a thrown weapon from 30ft away? Or is that against the intent of the rule?
That violates RAW and RAI.
Thrown Weapons are Melee if used in Melee or Ranged if used by throwing.
So when you are using a Thrown Weapon in your hand to poke someone, it is a Melee weapon (as JJ said) but when used to throw 30 ft it becomes a Ranged Weapon.
I think what James was saying in that other thread was something like this:
There is almost no such thing as a thrown weapon. Shuriken, bolas, maybe javelins. Not much else.
What you really have is a bunch of melee weapons. Almost every weapon ever invented (that doesn't fire a projectile) is meant to be held in your hand while you swing, smash, or poke your enemy with it.
Some, like longswords, maces, and battleaxes, are really not easily or accurately thrown. Others, like knives, spears, hand axes, etc., are both easy and accurate to throw.
So, you have melee weapons that can be thrown. Doing so means making a ranged attack.
Now, can the assassin throw a melee weapon as a Death Attack?
Technically, the rules are not specific on this, but I think it's fairly clear that the intent was to make a melee attack. I say this for a few reasons:
1. They said "with a melee weapon". It's far more likely they meant "make a melee attack" than they meant "make a melee attack or throw a melee weapon". I don't think anyone would likely every mean the latter. I think the author was looking for a convenient way to say "sneak attack" and "melee attack" in the same sentence and thought "make a sneak melee attack" sounded weird, so he trid a different way that is imprecise and ambiguous, but not meant to allow ranged death attacks.
2. I don't think throwing a hand-axe at someone's jugular 30' away seems any more deadly than firing a crossbow bolt from the same distance. Probably less likely to kill them, actually, unless you're one of those circus performeres who could split a cockroach in half with a trowing axe at 20 paces (and if you are, then I would still say you could have trained with a crossbow for half the time to be twice as deadly). So why in the world would the rule really allow you to make a death attack at 30' by throwing a melee weapon like a hand axe, but you can't do it with a crossbow or a shuriken?
3. In conjunction with #2, I think if they wanted you to make ranged death attacks, they wouldn't have restricted the kinds of weapons that can make them.
4. Also, if they wanted to allow ranged attacks, they almost certainly would have limited the range the way Sneak Attack, Point Blank Shot, most Rays, Coup De Grace, and nearly every other ranged "trick" in the book seems to be limited.
So I would have to say it's just bad wording in the Death Attack description, and you can edit your copy to say "then makes a melee sneak attack".
Also the language seems a murky. It states if the victim recognizes the assassin as a enemy he cannot be death attacked. So a battle breaks out and I hide for and observe a enemy for 3 rounds, I can't death attack him, because he knows I mean him harm?
Yeah, this bit confuses me too.
You are making a sneak attack first and foremost. That implies that your enemy doesn't see the attack, or cannot defend himself properly from it. If the target detects you, you cannot death attack him.
I would think there is no way he can "recognize you as an enemy" if he cannot detect you. That should be implicit.
So then I ask when could you possibly sneak attack someone who recognizes you (which implicitly means he is aware of you and can certainly see you well enough to recognize you - if he can't, well, then he can't recognzie you).
The only answer that comes readily to mind is flanking. He may very well know you are an assassin flanking him, and can see you plain as day. However, the Death Attack says you can use it when flanking, so this guess is shot down by the RAW.
I could not off the top of my head think of any other time someone can regognize you (which means he can see you) that you can still take a Sneak/Death attack against him (other than all the obvious, like he's awake but tied up, paralyzed, Hold Person, etc., but you can Sneak/Death attack on all those cases too).
And then it hit me.
Flat-footed.
So you're walking down a hallway. Your victim is walking toward you. He thinks you belong there (a friend, a servant, whatever) so he's not afraid of you. You walk slowly so you can study him for three rounds. As you pass him, you quick-draw your dagger and death attack him. He can see you and has a chance to recognize you, but doesn't recognize that you're an enemy, so the attack works because he's flatfooted and denied his DEX.
Still, even this is obvious because if you're creeping down the hallway dressed like a ninja, he's going to immediately recognize that a ninja is creeping toward him and turn around and run. He recognizes you as an enemy, so no Death Attack. Unless, of course, you use stealth, in which case you're undetected and he has no chance to recognize you anyway, so it's obvious either way: detected assassin can't death attack, undetected assassin cannot be recognized as an enemy because he is not visible to the victim.
Really, until someone presents something I'm not thinking of (and surely someone will), it looks like this whole sentence could be removed from the ability and it wouldn't change it one bit.
Disguises and betrayal come to mind.
Which means it's easy to Death Attack a party member than anyone else, and Dominate Person has no visual effect. Enjoy...
Yep, all of which lets you catch him flatfooted.
It's not the disguise, betrayal, or domination that allows the death attack. It's catching him flatfooted that allows it. Those tricks are just three ways to get close enough to use a melee attack against a flatfooted victim.
I think what James was saying in that other thread was something like this:
There is almost no such thing as a thrown weapon. Shuriken, bolas, maybe javelins. Not much else.
What you really have is a bunch of melee weapons. Almost every weapon ever invented (that doesn't fire a projectile) is meant to be held in your hand while you swing, smash, or poke your enemy with it.
Some, like longswords, maces, and battleaxes, are really not easily or accurately thrown. Others, like knives, spears, hand axes, etc., are both easy and accurate to throw.
So, you have melee weapons that can be thrown. Doing so means making a ranged attack.
Now, can the assassin throw a melee weapon as a Death Attack?
Technically, the rules are not specific on this, but I think it's fairly clear that the intent was to make a melee attack. I say this for a few reasons:
1. They said "with a melee weapon". It's far more likely they meant "make a melee attack" than they meant "make a melee attack or throw a melee weapon". I don't think anyone would likely every mean the latter. I think the author was looking for a convenient way to say "sneak attack" and "melee attack" in the same sentence and thought "make a sneak melee attack" sounded weird, so he trid a different way that is imprecise and ambiguous, but not meant to allow ranged death attacks.
2. I don't think throwing a hand-axe at someone's jugular 30' away seems any more deadly than firing a crossbow bolt from the same distance. Probably less likely to kill them, actually, unless you're one of those circus performeres who could split a cockroach in half with a trowing axe at 20 paces (and if you are, then I would still say you could have trained with a crossbow for half the time to be twice as deadly). So why in the world would the rule really allow you to make a death attack at 30' by throwing a melee weapon like a hand axe, but you can't do it with a crossbow or a shuriken?
3. In conjunction with #2, I think if they wanted you to make ranged death attacks, they...
Yes I suppose doesn't make sense upon reflection, they do place a limiter on range by stating you must succeed in a sneak attack as well. (which as we know is only 30ft) But still if they intended thrown weapons be used in conjunction with Death attack they would of expanded on it in the text, and made it more clear.
It initially made sense to me because the thrown dagger is such a staple of rogue's equipment and the later abilities like quite death it is a little more reasonable for to visualize a assassin throwing a dagger and avoiding detection than a heavy crossbow or short bow. But again I think you have the right of it, the intent of the ability is for a melee attack only.
Perhaps I just miss 3.5 assassin who could shoot PC's from 60ft away with Death attack.
Also the language seems a murky. It states if the victim recognizes the assassin as a enemy he cannot be death attacked. So a battle breaks out and I hide for and observe a enemy for 3 rounds, I can't death attack him, because he knows I mean him harm?Yeah, this bit confuses me too.
You are making a sneak attack first and foremost. That implies that your enemy doesn't see the attack, or cannot defend himself properly from it. If the target detects you, you cannot death attack him.
I would think there is no way he can "recognize you as an enemy" if he cannot detect you. That should be implicit.
So then I ask when could you possibly sneak attack someone who recognizes you (which implicitly means he is aware of you and can certainly see you well enough to recognize you - if he can't, well, then he can't recognzie you).
The only answer that comes readily to mind is flanking. He may very well know you are an assassin flanking him, and can see you plain as day. However, the Death Attack says you can use it when flanking, so this guess is shot down by the RAW.
I could not off the top of my head think of any other time someone can regognize you (which means he can see you) that you can still take a Sneak/Death attack against him (other than all the obvious, like he's awake but tied up, paralyzed, Hold Person, etc., but you can Sneak/Death attack on all those cases too).
And then it hit me.
Flat-footed.
So you're walking down a hallway. Your victim is walking toward you. He thinks you belong there (a friend, a servant, whatever) so he's not afraid of you. You walk slowly so you can study him for three rounds. As you pass him, you quick-draw your dagger and death attack him. He can see you and has a chance to recognize you, but doesn't recognize that you're an enemy, so the attack works because he's flatfooted and denied his DEX.
Still, even this is obvious because if you're creeping...
Yes that makes sense what your saying. If that where not the case later abilities like swift death wouldn't have any value. Because after you botch the first attempt what is the point of having a second death attack ready if you cannot use it. Thanks for the help.