A character who is non-proficient in medium armor would take a -1 penalty for wearing a mithral breastplate.
Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.
The only extra penalty you take is to attack rolls. If you don't care about a -1 for all attack rolls you can skip the feat.
Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.The only extra penalty you take is to attack rolls. If you don't care about a -1 for all attack rolls you can skip the feat.
The specific issue which prompted this whole debate is, my character has the Armor Expert Trait (which doesn't check for proficiency). It says that the armor check penalty with any sort of armor worn is reduced by one. I took this to mean that mithral armor, for my rogue, could be worn with a 0 armor check penalty, so it has no negatives for my character.
Correct
Wizards can run around with Mithral small shields all day with no penalties at all.
So, to reiterate, is there anyone who thinks that this works as scarymike's "Devil's Advocate" argument suggests? Namely, someone who is proficient with the base armor treats the ACP as reduced by 3, but someone non-proficient treats the ACP as per the normal armor?
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Not all of them, only specific dex and str skills. Non proficiency means every form of dex and str check comes into play.
What your saying would have been true in 3.5, but in PFPRG all Dex/Str skills are affected by ACP.
Just look on page 89 of Core book and you see that their is a * next to every Dex/Str skills which means ACP is applied.
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So, to reiterate, is there anyone who thinks that this works as scarymike's "Devil's Advocate" argument suggests? Namely, someone who is proficient with the base armor treats the ACP as reduced by 3, but someone non-proficient treats the ACP as per the normal armor?
Not I. Mithril reduces the base ACP of all armors, but to a minimum of 0. If you are not proficient with a type of armor, the ACP of that armor applies to your attack roll.
Armor Expert, as a trait, gives you a -1 to any armor's ACP, again to a minimum of 0.
So, for anyone with that trait, using a mithril breastplate, your ACP will be 0, so no need to be proficient in it.
Oy.
You can get the same thing, at lower cost, for a masterwork chain shirt, by the way. 350 gp, instead of 4200 gp...
This is why I don't play with traits. :)
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Not all of them, only specific dex and str skills. Non proficiency means every form of dex and str check comes into play.What your saying would have been true in 3.5, but in PFPRG all Dex/Str skills are affected by ACP.
Just look on page 89 of Core book and you see that their is a * next to every Dex/Str skills which means ACP is applied.
However, that's ONLY skills. Ability checks (including such things as CMB/CMD checks) are not affected if you have proficiency. Also note that Initiative is a Dexterity check ;)
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However, that's ONLY skills. Ability checks (including such things as CMB/CMD checks) are not affected if you have proficiency. Also note that Initiative is a Dexterity check ;)...
Not all of them, only specific dex and str skills. Non proficiency means every form of dex and str check comes into play.What your saying would have been true in 3.5, but in PFPRG all Dex/Str skills are affected by ACP.
Just look on page 89 of Core book and you see that their is a * next to every Dex/Str skills which means ACP is applied.
+1
I would rule that a mithril breastplate has an armor check of -1, not -4(-1) so if you are non-proficient the ACP is -1
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I believe the penultimate paragraph of the mithral description implies the numbers above are off by one.
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Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork as well[emphasis mine]; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
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Since all masterwork armors have their ACP reduced by one, mithral scale mail or a mithral breastplate has ACP 0 without needing the Armor Expert trait, mithral chainmail has ACP -1, mithral splint mail or half-plate -3, and mithral banded mail or full plate -2.
I believe the penultimate paragraph of the mithral description implies the numbers above are off by one.
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Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork as well[emphasis mine]; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
..."Since all masterwork armors have their ACP reduced by one, mithral scale mail or a mithral breastplate has ACP 0 without needing the Armor Expert trait, mithral chainmail has ACP -1, mithral splint mail or half-plate -3, and mithral banded mail or full plate -2.
The masterwork benefits are already included. All mithral armor is masterwork, all mithral armor has its ACP reduced by 3 (to a minimum of 0). There's no such thing as a non-masterwork suit of mithral armor, why wouldn't it already be included?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The masterwork benefits are already included. All mithral armor is masterwork, all mithral armor has its ACP reduced by 3 (to a minimum of 0). There's no such thing as a non-masterwork suit of mithral armor, why wouldn't it already be included?
+1
You do not add the benefits of Masterwork to Mithril items, since they already contain the benefits.
Just wanted to add that as far as I know, if you're not proficient in medium armor then the mithril breastplate even with a lower acp will still reduce your speed. Which IMO is one of the main reasons for shelling out the extra cash for mithril armor.
Proficiency in armor has nothing to do with your speed being reduced. A character without medium army proficiency that is wearing a mithral breastplate still treats it as light armor for purpose of movement. Now they could still have their speed reduced if they have a very low Str score and are past their light encumbrance, but it is not being caused by not having the feat.
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.
Devil's advocate (as in, this is not my argument, but I'm trying to get a solid rulling on it):
A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.This right here is saying that the +3 from the mithral is indisputably negated if non proficient.
-Mike
What that's saying, is that even though Mithral breastplate is considered light for movement and such, if you aren't trained in medium armor you eat it's armor check penalty (which has been reduced by it being mithral)
Thing is, Mithral breastplate has a AC penalty of 1. That's it. It's not 'reduced' it just is. It's because of Mithral's natural properties.
+1, stop finding something that isn't there, even if it is what you want.
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Just wanted to add that as far as I know, if you're not proficient in medium armor then the mithril breastplate even with a lower acp will still reduce your speed. Which IMO is one of the main reasons for shelling out the extra cash for mithril armor.Proficiency in armor has nothing to do with your speed being reduced. A character without medium army proficiency that is wearing a mithral breastplate still treats it as light armor for purpose of movement. Now they could still have their speed reduced if they have a very low Str score and are past their light encumbrance, but it is not being caused by not having the feat.
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.
Actually I'm quite sure Jason addressed this particular issue. And it was changed for a game balance aspect. You need proficiency in the armor type to benefit from the decrease in movement penalty. Although my memory could be faulty and I may be incorrect.
I'll try to find the thread where he mentions it.
Just wanted to add that as far as I know, if you're not proficient in medium armor then the mithril breastplate even with a lower acp will still reduce your speed. Which IMO is one of the main reasons for shelling out the extra cash for mithril armor.Proficiency in armor has nothing to do with your speed being reduced. A character without medium army proficiency that is wearing a mithral breastplate still treats it as light armor for purpose of movement. Now they could still have their speed reduced if they have a very low Str score and are past their light encumbrance, but it is not being caused by not having the feat.
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.
You are correct, mithral armor is light armor that requires medium armor proficiency to avoid taking the armor check penalty as a minus to hit.
There is nothing in the rules specifically stating that the reduction in speed due to the material's attributes to speed suddenly despairs or changes if they are non-proficient.
People, this isn't that hard.
Devil's Advocate: I would add a little something to that masterwork benefits debate.
Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20.
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In italics is shown the qualities granted by crafting armor or weapons from this type of material.
In bold is the fact that being masterwork is included in the cost. Notice that it seperately details that this means an additional +1 to Attack Bonus/-1 ACP.
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon's size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed). Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.) Mithral weapons count as silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Mithral has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 15.
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In italics it details the benefits gained strictly from using Mithril to fasion a weapon or suit of armor.
In bold it says that the price for being masterwork is included in the cost. Notice here it does not separately detail the addition of the +1 Attack Bonus nor the -1 to ACP as was done for Adamantine. If you assume that the -1 from being masterwork is included in the -3 from being Mithral then why is the +1 Attack Bonus not included in the benefits of Mithral weapons.
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When looking at the comparison I come to the conclusion that the masterwork benefits are not included in the description of Mithral and should be added seperately. If you are arguing that the -3 ACP granted by making Armor from Mithral included the -1 from being masterwork, then why is the +1 to Attack Bonus not included in the portion referencing crafting a weapon from Mithral? Furthermore if we apply the pattern that was set by Adamantine to the description of Mithral we see that the benefits of using Mithral should not include the benefits of masterwork just as the benefits of Adamantine do not include the benefits of masterwork, they are stated separately and should be added separately. Nowhere in the description of Mithral does it lead me to believe that the benefits of being masterwork are pre-calculated into the benefits of crafting armor from Mithril, just as they are not pre-calculated into the benefits of crafting armor from Adamantine. All it says in the Mithral descriptor is that the cost of being masterwork has been calculated into the cost of Mithral. It makes no mention of the benefits of being masterwork being calculated into the basic benefits of Mithral and as you can see from the pattern set forth by the description of Adamantine it is not meant to be pre-calculated but is rather meant to be added separately.