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As a long-time Call of Cthulhu player, I notice that Lovecraftian vibes are appearing here and there in Pathfinder products. While I have great respect for HPL Mythos *and* for Paizo, somehow I think that this isn't a match made in heaven.
My personal experiences aside (read: if you hear the words: Shoggoth, Leng or Tindalos then it's 1920s in Arkham, you're wearing a tuxedo and there's a tommy gun in the trunk of your Ford T), I strongly believe that the core element of Lovecraft horror is the inevitability of danger and insignificance of the protagonists against the thread.
In most cases of HPL stories, the heroes are ordinary people faced with cosmic horror beyond understanding. In most cases, such people suffer a tragic fate, trying to stem the unstoppable using mortal, ordinary means. Torchlight and a pistol (if any !) against terror from the stars. Human reasoning against alien logic. A hopeless struggle with little chance for survival, let alone victory.
So there we are, trying to fit all of this into d20 fantasy world. Problem is, the players in PFRPG are *not* ordinary people. They are heroes, bigger than life, brandishing +3 vorpal greatswords and releasing fury of hellfire from their fingertips. Otherworldly horrors - demons, aberrations, undead - are nowhere as threatening as to the level 1 Expert (the equivalent of most CoC characters).
That's why d20 Call of Cthulhu failed - the power level of fantasy heroes allows them to take on the Mythos monsters and give them a solid kicking, stripping the whole story of much horror in process. The main premise of D&D is about bigger-than-life heroes overcoming hordes of mighty foes on their way to riches and glory, and it doesn't really mesh with the Lovecraftian theme of weak, puny humans facing against the unspeakable.
While I'm perfectly fine with HPL elements in Golarion - I'm sure they float the boat for many folks, and since none of them is central to the campaign setting I can just edit them out and be happy, I am curious about what vision of Lovecraftian presence in Golarion is enjoyed by the fine authors at Paizo.
I refer you to the long standing friendship and literary crossovers between HPL and Robert Howard.
As a long-time Call of Cthulhu player, I notice that Lovecraftian vibes are appearing here and there in Pathfinder products. While I have great respect for HPL Mythos *and* for Paizo, somehow I think that this isn't a match made in heaven.
My personal experiences aside (read: if you hear the words: Shoggoth, Leng or Tindalos then it's 1920s in Arkham, you're wearing a tuxedo and there's a tommy gun in the trunk of your Ford T), I strongly believe that the core element of Lovecraft horror is the inevitability of danger and insignificance of the protagonists against the thread.
In most cases of HPL stories, the heroes are ordinary people faced with cosmic horror beyond understanding. In most cases, such people suffer a tragic fate, trying to stem the unstoppable using mortal, ordinary means. Torchlight and a pistol (if any !) against terror from the stars. Human reasoning against alien logic. A hopeless struggle with little chance for survival, let alone victory.
So there we are, trying to fit all of this into d20 fantasy world. Problem is, the players in PFRPG are *not* ordinary people. They are heroes, bigger than life, brandishing +3 vorpal greatswords and releasing fury of hellfire from their fingertips. Otherworldly horrors - demons, aberrations, undead - are nowhere as threatening as to the level 1 Expert (the equivalent of most CoC characters).
That's why d20 Call of Cthulhu failed - the power level of fantasy heroes allows them to take on the Mythos monsters and give them a solid kicking, stripping the whole story of much horror in process. The main premise of D&D is about bigger-than-life heroes overcoming hordes of mighty foes on their way to riches and glory, and it doesn't really mesh with the Lovecraftian theme of weak, puny humans facing against the unspeakable.
While I'm perfectly fine with HPL elements in Golarion - I'm sure they float the boat for many folks, and since none of them is central to the campaign setting I can just edit them out and be happy, I am curious about what...
I'm not so sure that d20 CoC failed. I've had some really amazing experiences with it, and the heroes were never so powerful that they could afford to NOT be afraid of anything (as they get higher in level, their sanity dips lower..and lower.....)
There definately is a distinct Cthulhu element. Shaggoths, the thing that turned Zon Kuthon, Azathoth etc... I'm personally pretty psyched for it. I don't feel like the central theme of CoC - Humans are an insignificant and meaningless life form in the cosmic theme of things - really fits, but it can definately add a little flavor. Remember, they want the setting to be open to whatever their players could want to do, from standard pathfinder to conan vs space robots to Lovecraftian Horror.
See also the sword-and-sorcery Dreamlands novels by Brian Lumley. You can face some pretty terrifying things and still be a snarky adventurer. :)
James did mention his approach (to what Lovecraftian creatures might appear) in the editorial in one of the Rise of the Runelord Pathfinder issues (#4 I think)
Basically it boils down to Dreamlands + extradimensional stuff, but not those that live specifically on Earth (like Cthulhu)
Heck, look at the Dunwich Horror. While the time period is further forward, it shows a group of librarians, armed with spells and relics, defeating an invisible horror rampaging the countryside. The good guys win, and no one goes insane.
How is THAT not a d20 fantasy trope?
And d20 cthulu was a huge hit. It sold in numbers that would make a lot of current rpg publisher's blush. But it was, WotC consistantly said from the beginning, a 1-shot designed to prove d20 could work for things other than D&D.
The existence of d20 Modern, Spycraft and M&M are all proof d20 cthulu did what it was meant to, proof-of-concept.
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I really don't think a bunch of spells and magic items in character's hands makes Cthulhu any less terrifying for them. I have a history of using Mythos stuff in my games. Usually when the tentacles and teeth start erupting all around them its far worse then the first time they see a dragon on the wing.
I agree with the original poster that D&D-like games including Pathfinder are not good systems for modeling many of the original stories, for the reason he cited: the characters tend to be larger than life and even an immortal cosmic horror may not represent an overwhelming threat to a well organized party with sufficient resources.
However, I see no danger of Pathfinder going that route. Elements of the Mythos that I'm aware of in Golarion so far are just creatures, servitor races or place names, which shouldn't be a problem in a fantasy RPG setting. The inclusion of relatively low-level threats like these doesn't turn Pathfinder/Golarion into a Mythos-oriented game like d20 Cthulhu; the occasional appearance of gugs, shoggoths and such on Golarion need not imply that it, like Earth, was once ruled by the Elder Gods and that they await certain stellar alignments to return and reclaim Golarion. Ia! Ia! *ahem*
On the other hand, I'd be very pleased to find a cyclopean city of black basalt somewhere on the Roof of the World. :)
...On the other hand, I'd be very pleased to find a cyclopean city of black basalt somewhere on the Roof of the World. :)Some of us do occasionally bother James Jacobs about this in PF Chats, but he seems strangely resistant to At the Mountains of Madness on the Crown of the World.... :(
I don't blame him. Different world, different city...it should be a different story rather than a rehash of the original. But the suggestion of something similar, which may end up revealed as a failed Thassalonian or Aztlanti colony, or even something older, would be fun.
Pre-Aboleth humanoids? Explanation, please!
Check your campaign settings, folks. There's already a cyclopean city of ancient pre-ABOLETH humanoids sitting at the Crown of the World.
Does it?!? <checks Wiki>
Aha! "Despite its inhospitable conditions, the Crown of the World contains ruins of a highly advanced civilization, which predates even Azlant, Thassilon or the coming of the aboleths to Golarion, presenting one of the most perplexing mysteries in the entire world."
citation: Gazeteer, p.23
Okay, that particular citation says nothing about humanoids (or cyclopean blocks of black basalt), but it does fit the bill for me. :)
Creative Director
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Check your campaign settings, folks. There's already a cyclopean city of ancient pre-ABOLETH humanoids sitting at the Crown of the World.
Just because something is humanoid shaped doesn't mean they possessed the monster type "Humanoid" of course... (And I don't think we've ever actually said that the Crown of the World city builders were humanoids anyway...)
See also the Dreamlands stories of H. P. Lovecraft. Particularly "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath," which gave us the ghast and helped define and inspire the concept of an Underdark or Darklands setting.
YES!
Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath was always one of my fav's. Glad to see I'm not alone.
Hey James u ever get my email about this....:) I know you are a busy man....
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I am of two minds on this, but first allow me to salute the OP for bringing it to the table at all.
That said, mind #1: The point of epic fantasy has been, to me, that it is Epic. Fantasy. Dragons to a 1st level expert = insurmountable. In a world of fantasy, many things are assumed. Heroes will be heroes, damsels will need rescuing, ad infinitum. That's the point.
Mind #2: Mythos is mythos. Invoking an Elder God should always repave the game world. During Madness In Freeport, at the very end I could FEEL my muscles tighten as my beloved intoned the name "Hastur" over and over again in character. I could feel the cold chill of terror settle over me, and realized just how utterly hosed things would be if the cultists got through that invocation. And that IS as it SHOULD be, IMO.
I have used Lovecraftian elements in my game since some stats were printed up in Deities and Demigods. Used sanity rules before UA made them official too.
Players enjoy it and know deep down not every encounter that they have will be win-able. They always have a plan B.
It isn't for everyone but Dreamquest shows how it can be done in a fantasy setting and hats off to Paizo for giving it a go.
I thought Lovecraft's "Pickman's Model" introduced the modern ghoul a year before he wrote Dream-Quest?
ghoul <> ghast
damsels will need rescuing
See also the Dreamlands stories of H. P. Lovecraft. Particularly "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath," which gave us the ghast and helped define and inspire the concept of an Underdark or Darklands setting.
As a note for both this (and another thread)...incidentally James, Hunting Horrors are mentioned in Dream Quest right at the end (I was listening to an audio last night)... they're not just a Chaosium invention. They're not described much apart from the fact some sort of light vapourises them.
So theoretically Paizo could use them...
My group loves the Lovecraftian elements in the game :) Funny story threadjack ...
We are about to enter the Hospice of the Blessed Maiden for the grand finale of Seven Days to the Grave. One player comments about how he's ready for just about anything, as long as it's not the Hounds of Tindalos. Another player, the GM for our Rise of the Runelords game, just grins, as they are lurking awaiting us in HIS game. I blithely say, "Oh, no, I don't have the Hounds, I have Gugs," and continue with my last paper prep. The fourth player offhandedly goes "Good" and then does a be-yoot-iful double take breaking us all up as what I said sinks in :)
End of threadjack!
Keep those Lovecraftian touches coming!
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I whole-heartedly agree with adding them, especially in the way that Paizo has, in drips and drabs. They aren't integral to the storyline, but they are elements that can be used as a DM sees fit... just enough to be wierd additions that provide excellent flavoring. Now, I have to admit, when I first saw the Hounds were going to be in RotRL #4, I was ecstatic and just needed Gugs to be happy. I now have Gugs, too. Everything else is gravy!
I can't wait to get to RotRL 4 so I can spring the hound on my players. One is well versed in Cthonic nastiness, the others... are oblivious. I look forward to seeing the contrast in reaction!
Can't wait for Carrion Hill and any other Lovecraftian nastiness Paizo has cooked up!
I agree with the original poster that D&D-like games including Pathfinder are not good systems for modeling many of the original stories, for the reason he cited: the characters tend to be larger than life and even an immortal cosmic horror may not represent an overwhelming threat to a well organized party with sufficient resources.
For those, like myself, who have very little knowledge or interest in the Cthulu mythos (I have never read any of the stories), I have found that "traditional" faerie tales actually have no shortage of horror elements.
My point is that horror elements do belong in Heroic Fantasy - reguardless of their original source.
My point is that horror elements do belong in Heroic Fantasy - reguardless of their original source.
Horror elements, absolutely. But horror, like fantasy (or sci-fi, or pulp fiction, or jazz...) has many subgenres. The Cthulhu Mythos tales as a whole -- there are individual stories which are exceptions to this -- fall into what might be called the "cosmic horror" subgenre, where "cosmic" is intended to represent a vast scale, rather than simply mean "from outer space" or some such thing.
The stories concern themselves with colossal alien beings so horrific the mere sight of them causes loss of sanity; books the mere reading of which, ditto. The eventual return of these cosmic horrors will bring about death and worse for the entire human race. Doom on a global scale is inevitable, the most you can hope for is to delay it.
That particular flavor of horror isn't usually a good fit for heroic fantasy RPGs; most of them don't even have a Sanity mechanic. Lots of fantasy gamers see no point in playing Call of Cthulhu because ultimately, you either die, go mad or get horribly transformed into something inhuman; but that's pretty much the lesson of the original stories.
I think the significance that lies in Frye's point is that these subgenres, and the games based on them, were sorted out of the original stew. So, while it is correct to observe that elements taken out of these highly developed instances will naturally function differently if they are put back into the larger pot when compared to later specialized developments, it's still as natural for them to go back into the pot as it was for them to crawl out of it. Ooo! A chewy tentacle!
That particular flavor of horror isn't usually a good fit for heroic fantasy RPGs; most of them don't even have a Sanity mechanic. Lots of fantasy gamers see no point in playing Call of Cthulhu because ultimately, you either die, go mad or get horribly transformed into something inhuman; but that's pretty much the lesson of the original stories.
Upon what are you basing these claims?
Was Lovecraft not found in Appendix N? To me, that is the definition of "Fantasy RPG Tradition", to say nothing of the "Literary Fantasy Tradition" that preceded it.
Pathfinder has an implicit sanity mechanic: Wisdom Drain.
A closer reading of Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath — the book to which most of the Pathfinder references are made — will help to revise your presumptions about "lesson" of HPL's works.
As for the presence of these things in the game world, I tend to look at it as selective rather than canonical. I don't care much for sci-fi elements at all, either in Fantasy RPG tradition (expedition to the barrier peaks) or in current RPG material (Numeria in Pathfinder Chronicles CS). I am okay with the material being there, I just won't use it!
Was Lovecraft not found in Appendix N? To me, that is the definition of "Fantasy RPG Tradition", to say nothing of the "Literary Fantasy Tradition" that preceded it.
A closer reading of Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath — the book to which most of the Pathfinder references are made — will help to revise your presumptions about "lesson" of HPL's works.
Yes, Lovecraft is in Appendix N. No particular works are cited, and I will agree with you that the Dream Cycle books present no particular problem for traditional fantasy RPGs; but then again the Dream Cycle books are themselves fantasy outside the "cosmic horror" subgenre represented by the later "Cthulhu Mythos" stories.
My bad, perhaps, for not distinguishing between the two subsets of Lovecraft's work, but it didn't occur to me at the time, and if it had I probably still would have skipped it in order to avoid off-topic detours into why some stories involving Nyarlathotep, ghasts, ghouls and gugs are Mythos tales and others may not be.
My statement was that "[cosmic horror] is generally not a good fit for fantasy RPGs" and with those two qualifications I stand by that statement.
Pathfinder has an implicit sanity mechanic: Wisdom Drain.
Again, note my earlier qualification: "most [fantasy RPGs] don't...have a Sanity mechanic." I didn't claim that none do, or that none should, I merely pointed out that one of the more common occurances of the Mythos stories isn't a common trope of fantasy RPGs because most game systems don't even try to model it.
As for the presence of these things in the game world, I tend to look at it as selective rather than canonical. I don't care much for sci-fi elements at all, either in Fantasy RPG tradition (expedition to the barrier peaks) or in current RPG material (Numeria in Pathfinder Chronicles CS). I am okay with the material being there, I just won't use it!
No disagreement here. I had pretty much the same reaction to Barrier Peaks and Numeria, and anyone who wants to ignore Lovecraftian elements in Golarion, or include and handle individual creature types Dream Lands fashion, can do so. The Cthulhu Mythos tales, as a whole, are best left out altogether.
I obviously disagree. Cosmic horror absolutely has a place in RPGs, and it (and Lovecraftian influences) will continue to persist in Golarion.
Yea but the only problem is people will want to have a Dark Young PC :)
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Creative Director
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I obviously disagree. Cosmic horror absolutely has a place in RPGs, and it (and Lovecraftian influences) will continue to persist in Golarion.Yea but the only problem is people will want to have a Dark Young PC :)
The Dark Young aren't in the public domain, nor are they open content, so we don't have to worry about that one at Paizo!
DODGED!
I obviously disagree. Cosmic horror absolutely has a place in RPGs, and it (and Lovecraftian influences) will continue to persist in Golarion.Yea but the only problem is people will want to have a Dark Young PC :)The Dark Young aren't in the public domain, nor are they open content, so we don't have to worry about that one at Paizo!
DODGED!
LOL!
I want to be a Shantak!
I obviously disagree. Cosmic horror absolutely has a place in RPGs, and it (and Lovecraftian influences) will continue to persist in Golarion.
[threadjack]
Can I point out that Baba Yaga is at least as horrific as Cthulhu? (Possibly more so.) And she pre-dates Lovecraft by centuries. :)[/threadjack]
I obviously disagree. Cosmic horror absolutely has a place in RPGs, and it (and Lovecraftian influences) will continue to persist in Golarion.[threadjack]
Can I point out that Baba Yaga is at least as horrific as Cthulhu? (Possibly more so.) And she pre-dates Lovecraft by centuries. :)
[/threadjack]
*reply to threadjack*
Horror on the Orient Express...Baba Yaga in all her gory, I mean glory, chickens an' all!
I obviously disagree. Cosmic horror absolutely has a place in RPGs, and it (and Lovecraftian influences) will continue to persist in Golarion.[threadjack]
Can I point out that Baba Yaga is at least as horrific as Cthulhu? (Possibly more so.) And she pre-dates Lovecraft by centuries. :)
[/threadjack]*reply to threadjack*
Horror on the Orient Express...Baba Yaga in all her gory, I mean glory, chickens an' all!
I am missing your reference. :(
I am missing your reference. :(I obviously disagree. Cosmic horror absolutely has a place in RPGs, and it (and Lovecraftian influences) will continue to persist in Golarion.[threadjack]
Can I point out that Baba Yaga is at least as horrific as Cthulhu? (Possibly more so.) And she pre-dates Lovecraft by centuries. :)
[/threadjack]*reply to threadjack*
Horror on the Orient Express...Baba Yaga in all her gory, I mean glory, chickens an' all!
She makes a big appearance in the CoC epic Horror on the Orient Express. The players had a run in with some nasty chickens and then later all three aspects of Baba Yaga end up trying to cook and eat the party. Later once back on the train the group spy a chicken legged cottage trying to keep up with a hag flying along in her mortar driven by her pestle. Luckily for the group she couldn't keep up with the train. However on the way home...
HotOE: yes, the chickens do see to catch peoples imaginations once they've had that encounter.
The only problem is that Baba Yaga is getting a bit overused in horror themed RPG's.
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Creative Director
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HotOE: yes, the chickens do see to catch peoples imaginations once they've had that encounter.
The only problem is that Baba Yaga is getting a bit overused in horror themed RPG's.
That's only a problem if you're familiar with all of those horror themed RPGs, of course... and more to the point, only if your PLAYERS are familiar with it. If they're not, then it doesn't matter even if EVERY RPG has Baba Yaga stuff in it. What you do for your home group and players will still be fresh and new for them.
That's only a problem if you're familiar with all of those horror themed RPGs, of course...
Which, if one were not, one might clamor in a certain petitionary thread to receive one's Baba Yaga.
That's only a problem if you're familiar with all of those horror themed RPGs, of course... and more to the point, only if your PLAYERS are familiar with it. If they're not, then it doesn't matter even if EVERY RPG has Baba Yaga stuff in it. What you do for your home group and players will still be fresh and new for them.
True.
It also depends how memorable its been I suppose !