This was being discussed in another thread but I thought perhaps to end the threadjack since I think this is a potentially interesting discussion.
My question to everyone is, how do you and your groups like to handle downtime? Do you include days, weeks, months or years between adventure arcs for pc's to do things like join/form organizations, persue political aspirations, open buisinesses, craft magical items, research spells etc?
I personally find it strange if there isnt a significant amount of such downtime. As someone said in another thread, if there is constant action, it starts to be a video game. Believable characters do not adventure every day of their lives, and they do things other then adventure. I also like it when players tie themselves to the setting. If players are able to hold a political office, start a buisiness, join/create an organization. For one it puts some use into the proffession skills, another it provides lots of great future plot hooks. The fighters new apprentice is kidnapped, the bard's political opponent is the BBEG, Or the clerics new organization is waging a campaign against the undead in region x.
The downtime also applies heavily to spellcasters, particularly the wizard, in allowing for the crafting of magic items, and the researching of new spells.
In addition I feel a charcter's career should be over a lifetime, if there isn't significant downtime, every character would hit epic levels in their 20's.
What are everyone's thoughts on the matter?
In my group, the players usually decide on down time as a group. For example, they are exploring the world, and come across a Centaur Trading outpost. They have a bunch of equipment they have found and salvaged over the last 2-3 months in game (loaded down honestly, almost at the point where they can't carry anymore stuff without serious penalties). So they take the stuff and sell it at the trading outpost, count up all the money, and then look through what's for sale. Anything they want that's for sale, they buy immediately. If it's something they want, and it's not for sale, they search around to see if they can find someone to make it. In this case, they just want the Adamantine hammer they found enchanted to a +1. That's relatively easy, and they could do it themselves, but they'd have to rent a magic lab, etc. Instead they pay a 3rd level sorcerer who's at the outpost to do it for them. That still takes time, so the duskblade worked on his spells, the marshall caught up on all his reports to send back to the city, the rogue worked on gambling and drinking and gathering information, etc.
I tend to place it between 3 weeks to 12 weeks between 'adventures'. I find out their lifestyle, work their professions and get them to engage in their 'lives'. I Have PC's building a house, another planning his mage's guild, while a third has become a dwarven festivities director.
And occasionally, I'll interrupt a 3 month hiatus with a small side trek, and then shunt them back into a real adventure (sometimes connected).
Batts
while a third has become a dwarven festivities director.
I am going to have to swipe this particular one, I think my group could have alot of fun with this one.
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Downtime can be both a blessing and curse.
The problems as I see it rear their ugly heads in many adventure paths - The Curse of Crimson Throne being a prime example - wherein having downtime is counter-intuitive to the storyline.
Goodly PCs are faced with the notion and guilt of just having downtime to create magical items etc while their city etc is being destroyed. To have any semblance of verisimilitude to a setting, the world doesn't just stop for 6 weeks while the party casters are crafting etc. Having been a recent player of the campaign and DM of it - it (and others) don't seem to lend itself to being stretched out over the course of several years etc.
So in short - alot of the "should we or shouldn't we" incorporate regular downtime is something that is relative to each DMs style and campaign that they're running. Some DMs may want to run an AP straight out of the book, and not have the time or wherewithal to incorporate alot of ancillary subplots (some good ones described in this thread already); while others run a more free-form style that allows that player characters to guide the story and run the show. That latter is far more compatible to extended and frequent downtimes.
Unfortunately, 3rd edition rules is built on a mechanic that needs magical items (specifically that static bonus ones) to be competitive of a given APL with creatures/challenges one is facing. So crafting isn't just a luxury or option as much as it is a necessary mechanic - unless the DM is one to be sure to provide all the necessary items - specifically they Nat Armor necklace, the ring of prot, the cloak of resist, armor, weapon, shield, and stat item. So campaigns that have a level of urgency (like Curse) makes this hassle, I think. I remember as a player in that campaign feeling quite ambivalent - we NEED to improve our gear.....but how do we justify letting our homes, families, friends, citizens, etc, continue to be destroyed around us while sitting on our asses somewhere else.
The next conundrum is: in campaigns where there is a plethora of sub-plots being formed, and the DM is more free-form with the campaign etc, and not in a rush, the spellcasters with craft get screwed out of the possible political interactions, and relationship building in the communities, because they're locked away crafting for 6 weeks at a time, upgrading everyone's gear.
Let's look at a group of 11th level heroes - all ready to move their gear up to +3 or +4 - with a group of 5 characters, a craft arms and armor could be looking at increasing 2 weapons to +4, one to +3, two armors to +4 and one to +3. That's like 50 days, and caster hasn't done one item for himself - no scrolls, scribing in book, wands/staffs, etc, not to mention wondrous items like their cloaks, necklaces, and stat items; so this downtime is looking like 3 months at this point - wherein the spellcaster cannot get involved much.
One of the things I have done to combat all of this as I DM (both the "hurry up" urgent campaigns, and the "cant get involved in all the good ancillary plots" I have changed the time to craft things significantly.
Here is the formula I use:
Find the total GP market value of the item (less what it already was if its simply being enhanced further i.e. from +2 to +3). Take that total gold and look at the XP chart of the PHB using the total gold as if it were xp on that chart. Find the level a character would be with an amount of XP = to the price of the item. Take that level that the character would be with that amount of XP - that's the number of days it takes to craft that item.
So something costing less than 1000 takes 1 day. Something costing 12000 would be 5 days (since 12000 xp is 5th level). This allows the campaign to continue quicker when it's needed or allows the spellcaster to be more involved when it's alot of just campaign building scenarios.
Selling Items: When PCs wish to sell their salvaged loot (generally a 50% return), unless there have been out of the norm arrangements made with certain NPCs, guilds, companies, etc, we use the general rule of thumb of this this mechanic.
Use the mechanic I stated above to figuring out the amount of time it takes to craft (but use the resale value of 50%). That's the base number of days it will take to find buyers for all of that gear. Compare the total gold that will be earned for the sales vs the total gp limit of the town, and increase or decrease the amount of time proportionate to the total
For instance. those same 11th level heroes are trying to sell 120,000 gp worth of gear (for 60,000 resale) in Magnimar (40,000 gp limit). 60,000 xp on that chart equates to 10th level, so it would take 10 days. However, the 60,000 that they would earn is 50% more than the 40,000 gp limit so the 10 days takes 15 days (50% more). Finally, Diplomacy can help speed up the process. Whoever wants to spend their time "selling" the items makes a diplomacy skill check - other wanting to spend their time doing this can "aid" and provide bonuses to the check. The total on the skill check reduces the cost of the items for the purpose of comparing it on the XP chart by a percent rounded to the lowest increment of 5. So a Diplomacy check that gets a total of 23 lowers that cost by 20%; so the 60000 is actually 48,000, and thus is only 9 days, or 14 days in Maginar's economy. So you see some people are selling while others are crafting and all are finished about the same time - but certainly no where near as long as crafting is suppose to take per the RAW.
Complicated I know - but after you use the formula a few times, we don't worry so much with the numbers exactly, and I can say as DM with a good amount of confidence and authority that: "It's take the three of you the better part of 2 weeks on the open market to sell off your gear. Money now fills your pockets, and in that time, you've heard the following rumors on the streets...."
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We never have set time between adventures. Could be 3 months one time, 2 weeks another time or even once it was an hour before trouble found us......
-Weylin
This is very much similar to my experiences and those of my players.
We have a message board that all players partake in - and during those two real-life weeks between games, players indicate (among alot of other things posted on there), desired downtime personal agendas that can be resolved.
This allows the DM prep time to either a_) address all or some of the issues off-stage and just summarize the results, or b_) design and roleplay out an encounter with an NPC etc. Regardless it works better in our group for the DM to have foreknowledge of what the players intend to do while in town so that not everything is impromptu and adlibbed. Some things sure, but it's far more rewarding an experience when someone wants to make a surprise visit to a monastary to trace back their geneology for some reason if the DM had a chance to really develop an NPC personality, name, etc of what is to be discussed and found
After all posts are made about downtime, the DM arbitrates how much of it was accomplished before "trouble came up" taking away the PCs attentions. Could be 2 months, could be 2 days.
Robert
My group combines the campaign and downtime pretty well. starting at 1st level we went into a dungeon for about 2 weeks game time and came out lvl 5. Now we are returning to the town we met and the GM is allowing us to set our own downtime combined with his adventure campaign plot line.
In other words, we will sit around from 1 or 2 months crafting/learning/gathering information/ practicing profession/ etc. and then our second "official" adventure begins after a 6 month trek to a dwarven city in search of an object/guild/seer we discovered in that elaborate dungeon. That adds up to about a 9 month span of time where we only advanced 5 levels.
As we increase in lvl downtime will be more frequent as the speed of lvling is decreased.
The next conundrum is: in campaigns where there is a plethora of sub-plots being formed, and the DM is more free-form with the campaign etc, and not in a rush, the spellcasters with craft get screwed out of the possible political interactions, and relationship building in the communities, because they're locked away crafting for 6 weeks at a time, upgrading everyone's gear.
Let's look at a group of 11th level heroes - all ready to move their gear up to +3 or +4 - with a group of 5 characters, a craft arms and armor could be looking at increasing 2 weapons to +4, one to +3, two armors to +4 and one to +3. That's like 50 days, and caster hasn't done one item for himself - no scrolls, scribing in book, wands/staffs, etc, not to mention wondrous items like their cloaks, necklaces, and stat items; so this downtime is looking like 3 months at this point - wherein the spellcaster cannot get involved much.
One of the things I have done to combat all of this as I DM (both the "hurry up" urgent campaigns, and the "cant get involved in all the good ancillary plots" I have changed the time to craft things significantly.
First of all you only have to devote 8 hours to crafting per day, (in fact that is all you can devote). Add in 8 hours of rest, 2 hours of preping spells and other basics, you have 6 hours a day where you can still participate in role play. The wizard does not need to be locked away 24 hours a day, and there force can still get involved in the other stuff.
Second I have never felt the caster is beholden to the party to craft everything they want. Certainly if the party wants something pade and the wizard agrees he can do it. But the idea of the wizard making ALL of their gear is silly to me. In my group the caster might make one or two things for the party, one or two for himself, but the majority would either have already been recieved in the adventure (we tend to try and customize rewards toward the pc's), or commissioned assuming there is an appropriate venue for it to be done (wizard guild, local church with crafting clerics etc).
I dont know that cutting down the time to craft things is appropriate either as it is really the only remaining balancing factor in crafting. I dont think the wizard is supposed to be able to craft each and every item the party wants/needs. That would probably throw off the wealth tables (and the treasure per encounter tables) quite a bit.
I think in part it depends on whether the DM tends toward an episodic or epic storytelling style.
An example of epic storytelling would be like a cohesive Adventure Path, or the Lord of the Rings trilogy. There might be a little downtime here and there, but the story as a whole is urgent and can't safely be ignored.
Having run Superhero games for many years, I tend toward episodic thinking, as if the game were an episode of Hercules. There might be several episodes in a row dealing with a common theme, but once that ends, there's another unrelated story around the bend. This type of process lends itself to downtime between episodes, because you can start of saying..."It's two months after you defeated Lord Monster and his evil crew of goblins. What has each of your characters been up to during this time."
Nothing wrong with either style, but I do thing epic tales tend to have less chances for downtime.
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I think in part it depends on whether the DM tends toward an episodic or epic storytelling style.
There is definitely a distinction with both. Most (if not all) of the APs are written and run mostly in the Epic style; and those are the games that I typically find myself involved in (either as DM or player).
Episodic works really well using various Dungeon magazing adventures, and the semi-monthly Pathfinder modules.
Robert
When In-Game Downtime can be measured in months (usually 3+) then it becomes Extended Downtime...
That sounds complicated, but I've done something similar on occasion (not with Pathfinder, but in 3.0 and D20 Modern) awarding XP based on what characters did off-screen. I think it can be good because it makes the downtime seem real and fleshes out the characters better. I like your idea of having a separate XP pool for this; I never took it to that level.
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First of all you only have to devote 8 hours to crafting per day, (in fact that is all you can devote). Add in 8 hours of rest, 2 hours of preping spells and other basics, you have 6 hours a day where you can still participate in role play. The wizard does not need to be locked away 24 hours a day, and there force can still get involved in the other stuff.
True. Good point. However compared to those that do not need to craft 6 hours of 'free time'is only half or less than others would have. Taking on an important political role or task in a community would surely require more attention than that for instance - or being expected to join a scholastic order and doing research etc....say the Pathfinder Society for instance. I'll agree it doesn't forbid them from partaking in any way, but surely the options are more limited.
Second I have never felt the caster is beholden to the party to craft everything they want. Certainly if the party wants something pade and the wizard agrees he can do it. But the idea of the wizard making ALL of their gear is silly to me. In my group the caster might make one or two things for the party, one or two for himself, but the majority would either have already been recieved in the adventure (we tend to try and customize rewards toward the pc's), or commissioned assuming there is an appropriate venue for it to be done (wizard guild, local church with crafting clerics etc).
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Well, certainly there's nothing wrong with how you feel about that; there is similarly nothng inherently wrong with players who feel the opposite and whose wizard does handle that as his role for the party (when not adventuring). Some groups would fall somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. But there's nothing in the rules the governs that tendency one way or the other. Everyone plays their style just a little bit differently.
I dont know that cutting down the time to craft things is appropriate either as it is really the only remaining balancing factor in crafting. I dont think the wizard is supposed to be able to craft each and every item the party wants/needs. That would probably throw off the wealth tables (and the treasure per encounter tables) quite a bit..
Another good point. I failed to mention in my redesigned mechanic for crafting schedule, that in my campaigns, we have done away with the cost savings for crafting. Now crafting isn't a way to "save" or "make money" instead it's quicker to do than RAW, and costs the same as buying it - the difference is you have the option to customize an item as you see fit, and/or have an item made that may not be available to buy. So taking the feats and crafting still have a lot of value - even if it's not saving you money. But you're right - without that caveat, the reduction of time may imbalance things - which is why that caveat change was applied. Thanks for bringing that up.
Robert
Mine tend toward slow epic told as episodic.
I know, that's confusing, let me explain.
The entire 'Epic' of my campaign is the rediscovery of the land around the city the players come from, they have been in self-imposed exile for thousands of years while the land around them went through a chaotic turmoil of war, destruction, rebuilding, war, destruction, rebuilding, etc. They haven't been seriously attacked for a few hundred years (other than raiding by goblins and hobgoblins and a few orc bands, and about 400 years ago was a small Goblin uprising where a few thousand goblins seiged the city. The goblin population in the city insisted on taking care of it themselves, and drove their wild cousins off in a few weeks).
So the Epic tale is the tale of rediscovery of the world and finding out just what all has happened in the world while the city has been gated up behind it's walls.
However, the discovery is episodic. They get assigned exploration missions while back in the city, and then head out to find and map portions of the continent, bringing the cities records up to date, making friendly contact with other countries if possible. So they can pretty much take their time, work through things as they need to.
An example of epic storytelling would be like a cohesive Adventure Path, or the Lord of the Rings trilogy. There might be a little downtime here and there, but the story as a whole is urgent and can't safely be ignored.
I agree, I think alot of people take inspiration from stories like the lord of the rings, where an epic conflict, but in those cases, the characters are generally already rather advanced in capabilities (read character levels). Certainly even at the begining of the Lord Of the Rings, Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, Boromis, and Gimle were all already quite high level. They certainly improved (leveled up) over the course of the story, most dramatically Gandalf, but it was not the bulk of their careers, only a small portion of it.
An example of episodic story telling would be the song of ice and fire (so far ofcourse) in that the characters have not only had a wide range of development in their capabilities, it has also happened over a span of months and years. There was certainly time for and the inclusion of 'downtime' and side plots.
I think this kind of story telling makes alot more sense for a full campain. If you want epic like Lord of the rings it really should be a series of adventures that start with high level characters already established. If you are going 1-16 or 1-20 I think the intensity of an extended epic story throws off the whole of the xp system. I mean how does someone go from level 1 cannon fodder to the finest warrior in the land in a couple weeks, or even a few months. And no character fictional or otherwise keeps up that kind of pace for their entire careers, it just doesnt make any sense to me from a story perspective.
All kind of depends on the campaign. 1st ed had a lot more breaks in the action since players were often training and since you had different advancement tracks you would often have 1 player advancing while the rest had free time. Overall I liked the pace you had under 1st edition. For a character to go from 1st level to 20th level it would usually be years in game time.
Now without enforced downtime the pace is dictated solely by the pace of the campaign. You can have characters level from 1-20 as quickly as the campaign pace dictates.
One of my groups is a GM run sandbox campaign and the players decide how long the breaks between adventures should be. Last time we had downtime we took 2 weeks off.
The other group is playing a purchased module and so far there has been little chance for rest. Since the start of the campaign there has been a sense of urgency to get some things finished. We probably won't take a prolonged break until after 5th level or maybe longer. Paizo APs are generally pretty fast paced but have some places to rest every few levels.
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The other group is playing a purchased module and so far there has been little chance for rest. Since the start of the campaign there has been a sense of urgency to get some things finished. We probably won't take a prolonged break until after 5th level or maybe longer. Paizo APs are generally pretty fast paced but have some places to rest every few levels.
Yes, I agree with Dennis. And since the APs is what we typically play, I tweaked the crafting times to allow things to be made quicker for the sake of not making the campaign be on hold while the needed items are made - and makes the players happier for having not wasted the feat; and with the change in the cost of crafting - it has kept things balanced. Crafting doesn't save them money - just saves them the hassle of looking or hoping for the right item to come their way.
Robert
True. Good point. However compared to those that do not need to craft 6 hours of 'free time'is only half or less than others would have. Taking on an important political role or task in a community would surely require more attention than that for instance - or being expected to join a scholastic order and doing research etc....say the Pathfinder Society for instance. I'll agree it doesn't forbid them from partaking in any way, but surely the options are more limited.
I agree they are limited, but that is part of the choice right? If you want to be the reclusive wizard locked in his tower, crafting items and researching spells, there have to be role play implications as well. Not to mention you dont have to spend a full 8 hours a day crafting, You could spend 4, doubling the overall time needed but allowing lots of time to persue other things. You wont be able to craft or research as much but that is a choice the character makes.
Well, certainly there's nothing wrong with how you feel about that; there is similarly nothng inherently wrong with players who feel the opposite and whose wizard does handle that as his role for the party (when not adventuring). Some groups would fall somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. But there's nothing in the rules the governs that tendency one way or the other. Everyone plays their style just a little bit differently.
I totally agree, I was just saying they dont HAVE to do it that way. There is certainly nothing wrong with it, and indeed something sort of noble about it, as it is a significant sacrifice for the gain of the group.
Another good point. I failed to mention in my redesigned mechanic for crafting schedule, that in my campaigns, we have done away with the cost savings for crafting. Now crafting isn't a way to "save" or "make money" instead it's quicker to do than RAW, and costs the same as buying it - the difference is you have the option to customize an item as you see fit, and/or have an item made that may not be available to buy. So taking the feats and crafting still have a lot of value - even if it's not saving you money. But you're right - without that caveat, the reduction of time may imbalance things - which is why that caveat change was applied. Thanks for bringing that up.
It is an interesting way to handle it. I am curious to know how your players hold up against the wealth by level when handing out recommended treasure. How much do you tailor treasure to the player's needs/rewards? How much of it is in magic items, and how much in liquid items (gold gems etc). I am curious to see how the balance comes out in the end. Also does it mean in your world people only make magic items of any kind for personal use? Since there is not a means to profit off of them?
Yes, I agree with Dennis. And since the APs is what we typically play, I tweaked the crafting times to allow things to be made quicker for the sake of not making the campaign be on hold while the needed items are made - and makes the players happier for having not wasted the feat; and with the change in the cost of crafting - it has kept things balanced. Crafting doesn't save them money - just saves them the hassle of looking or hoping for the right item to come their way.
This is kind of how I think of the magic item creation feats, a way to get the specific items you want, not so much a way to get tons more items.
In my game characters spend downtime scribing scrolls and crafting items or "practicing" skills/feats/PrC stuff for later.
I cut back a tad on carry outs and allow players to sell stuff at 50% base price plus d100% of the 50% (am I making sense?). 50% represents a quick sell were as the higher value represents holding out for a better price.
I also use an old Gateway product called Cities which has randoms for making friends/enemies and all sorts of character background stuff.
Normally its about six weeks to three months between adventuring.
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It is an interesting way to handle it. I am curious to know how your players hold up against the wealth by level when handing out recommended treasure.
Pretty close - if not a little on the light side. I am currently running AoW campaign, they are level 12; we're in the Gathering of Winds chapter 6 now. I have not added any additional treasure to the mix, however survival has not been an issue so far, and they have kept and used a lot more of the treasure than sold (unlike previous campaigns before this new system I put in place).
Before, they would be above the curve because they would save so much by crafting so much. Since they're not saving money by crafting things, they're instead finding a way to use most of what they find instead of instantly trying to sell off everything. Instead they use their craft feats to continue to enhance a couple of their most important ones, and made sure they had their bases covered. I like it more this way, because it seems less "video-gamey" to just find and sell and repeat. Now they are actually using things - many of the items not optimally maximized to their character's benefit.
i.e. using a mace instead of a long sword. using banded armor instead of full plate, etc.
How much do you tailor treasure to the player's needs/rewards?
Very little. Maybe 10%. I used to customize a lot; but not anymore. I made the decision a couple years ago when I started running Shackled City that I would spend very little time on the mechanics, and monsters, treasure and creatures, and spend my prep time on building NPC backgrounds, stories, sub-plots, political intrigue etc. Essentially - I use the module almost at stock for the creatures and treasure - so as to not spend so much time re-inventing that wheel; it's already done for me. I instead have made more creative stories and had fun watching the campaign and characters and NPCs evolve. I will resize things though; a few items I made "small" so as to benefit the gnome in the group. Otherwise; he'd have nothing.
How much of it is in magic items, and how much in liquid items (gold gems etc).
Again - I'm running almost verbatim from the magazine modules. It's working out well. I admit they're probably on the low side if compared exactly to the WotC chart - maybe by like 15-20% under - but there's 6 characters in the group - as opposed to the assumed 4 - which accounts for the per character shortage. Regardless the less treasure is counter-balanced by 2 additional heroes in the party - thus the encounters have still be quite fair.
I am curious to see how the balance comes out in the end.
It's been very balanced. Because people get HALF for selling, the old philosophy was "Sell everything for half, and use that half to craft what we want for half - so we come out the same." Now they realize they sell for half - and craft for full - so they'd lose money for selling everything - so instead, they're keeping and using a lot of the cool magic items that so many campaigns I've been involved with (both as DM and player) since 3ed edition was released would have dismissed and sold without a second thought
Also does it mean in your world people only make magic items of any kind for personal use? Since there is not a means to profit off of them?
Good thought. You're not the first person to point this out to me, either. It was a point brought up by the players - and I'll admit there's no true reasonable explanation. It's one of those things that falls under "balance and simplicity outweigh need for practical believability" Much like the hit point system. It's unreasonable to believe that the giant is just as effective with his club at 4 hit points, as he was at 180 when you first encountered him - but it's a simple system that makes the game mechanics balanced and easy to utilize. Sure you can roleplay the giant on his last leg, you can describe his weakening state, the lowered elbows and groggy look - much like a boxer in the 8th round....but mechanically he's just as effective when he swings his club (which is what prompted my Vitality and Stamina mechanic house rule that I use - but that's a different thread altogether).
That being said, to address the concern: my campaign's specifically is not one that there is a "magic shop" in every town a la video games like Neverwinter Nights and DDO. So "making magical items for profit" to be in a wal-mart of magical item options, isn't really a popular business because I don't have them exist. Some casters can be chartered to craft a specific item (perhaps the PC doesn't have the right feat or needed spell to make an item); and it is up to the DMs discretion to charge whatever he wants - perhaps little extra (10% maybe) based on the economy, the geography (like buying gas while up in the mountains) of the place, the nature of the item, the prestige of the PCs, PC affiliations, recent social and political situations, and other unmeasurable factors. But since items are sold and bought via loot, it is assumed that since PCs sell their loot for 50% to a merchant, and buy things from merchants for 100%, there is a resale value for those in such business for themselves.
I strongly urge DMs - especially those of us who have come from pre 3rd editions systems, to try a campaign in this way (not saving money - Pathfinder already doesn't charge XP for it - so they're not losing XP for no gain); I believe they'll see some good usage of magical items found in a campaign, and PCs actually holding on to and using some of the more atypical items - which harkons back to the 2nd and 1 ed days (when I started DMing in 84) where there was no crafting rules really, and every magic item was truly treasured - no matter what it did!
As it stands, my Paladin in a Curse of Crimson Throne campaign that I'm playing in - the Eversmoking Bottle is one of my most favorite magical items I own! Not kidding! Thats something you never see a character craft. Its always a stat item, cloak or resist, necklace of nat armor, or ring of protection, or armor and/or weapon. But eversmoking bottles, cloak of the arachnida, boots of the north, bracers of brachiation, decanter of endless water....these are things people just don't spend their money on crafting. It's not mechanically optimal, lets be honest. And I remember in 2nd and 1st edition - when the the DM was rolling on the Miscellaneous Magic Items chart - all the players got excited! And my paladin, Kaerthoryn (now 14th level in chapter 6), wouldn't trade his eversmoking bottle for anything......well except a holy avenger I guess! :-)
Robert
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I think there's plenty of downtime a lot of people over look. People tend to forget travel time. If you actually use the distance bar and measure out the distance between one place and another, then figure out how long it takes to get there you'd quickly realize you don't actually spend even close to that much time on the road "in game."
The Lord of the Rings movies are one of the most amusing examples of tis because while the characters are running around from place to place, few people (viewers) think about exactly how much gear they're wearing, armor they're carrying, etc. For us it seems like they're only traveling for a day or two, but in reality it's a lot more time then that.
I think there's plenty of downtime a lot of people over look. People tend to forget travel time. If you actually use the distance bar and measure out the distance between one place and another, then figure out how long it takes to get there you'd quickly realize you don't actually spend even close to that much time on the road "in game."
Crafting while traveling is pretty bad if you follow the actual rules. You only get 4 hours a day of crafting while "out adventuring", and those 4 hours only count for 2 hours worth of actual progress.
I think there's plenty of downtime a lot of people over look. People tend to forget travel time. If you actually use the distance bar and measure out the distance between one place and another, then figure out how long it takes to get there you'd quickly realize you don't actually spend even close to that much time on the road "in game."Crafting while traveling is pretty bad if you follow the actual rules. You only get 4 hours a day of crafting while "out adventuring", and those 4 hours only count for 2 hours worth of actual progress.
Yeah, but if you're walking 500 miles, that 2 hours of progress per day still adds up.
I've also allowed people to buy a portable 'shop' in the form of a gypsy wagon, all the materials for crafting contained inside. If they have that, I usually give them a full 8 hours of crafting a day (some while the wagon is rolling during the day, assuming someone else is driving) and the rest when they stop for the night (no jostling for the delicate work). Even had them put in a portable blacksmith shop onetime, they did blacksmith work on the road (shoeing horses, mending plows, etc). Just had to be careful of the fire pit not setting the wagon on fire.
Yeah, but if you're walking 500 miles, that 2 hours of progress per day still adds up.I think there's plenty of downtime a lot of people over look. People tend to forget travel time. If you actually use the distance bar and measure out the distance between one place and another, then figure out how long it takes to get there you'd quickly realize you don't actually spend even close to that much time on the road "in game."Crafting while traveling is pretty bad if you follow the actual rules. You only get 4 hours a day of crafting while "out adventuring", and those 4 hours only count for 2 hours worth of actual progress.
Assuming all humans, you are only walking for 21 days. At 2 hours/day, that's barely enough time to make a +1 sword.
And if you're upgrading from +1 to +2, well, you can start on your the way there, then work some more on the reutrn trip, then after you get home, if time permits, you can spend the last 9 days in your workshop to finish it.
Oh, wait, but you actually wanted to use the magic sword when you got there in the first place? Sorry, no dice.
Even more interestingly, is that you began working on upgrading your +1 sword to +2 on the way there, which means you spend the 3,000 on materials up front. When you got there, you found a dungeon. In that dungeon was a +2 sword. Well, OK, at least you can start using it right away, but now you've wasted your time and money on the +2 sword you're making - the only way not to thow away 3,000 gp is to finish making the sword you don't need any more, then sell it. Ah, my, at least it's profit. (My point here is that, unless you're crafting something unusual, you're often likely to find it, or a suitable alterntative, just by adventuring long before you can create it at 2 hours per day.
I've also allowed people to buy a portable 'shop' in the form of a gypsy wagon, all the materials for crafting contained inside. If they have that, I usually give them a full 8 hours of crafting a day (some while the wagon is rolling during the day, assuming someone else is driving) and the rest when they stop for the night (no jostling for the delicate work). Even had them put in a portable blacksmith shop onetime, they did blacksmith work on the road (shoeing horses, mending plows, etc). Just had to be careful of the fire pit not setting the wagon on fire.
Those are sooooo very hard to take into most dungeons.
Ah, I'll never forget the day when my poor gypsy wagon/forge sank to the bottom of the sea because we brought it along on an underwater adventure...
I'm not sure we actually have "downtime" per se in our games, as that would imply "on-the-side bits that happen off-camera", and the heroes' personal endeavours are just as integral a part of the campaign as the adventuring bits. Whatsmore, the few times that we do compress time is actually part of the adventuring bits (ex: a week of comprehensive intelligence gathering regarding our next target).
Good gamers don't need story hooks to create stories for themselves. In fact, it's sometimes harder to break out of "downtime" to do some actual adventuring!
QFT.
They certainly improved (leveled up) over the course of the story, most dramatically Gandalf
I still say Gandalf was overpowered. Someday the Tolkien estate will listen to my requests to nerf the Mayar race.
I am going to have to swipe this particular one, I think my group could have alot of fun with this one.while a third has become a dwarven festivities director.
My gift to you. ;) Have fun
Batts
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One of the DMs I play with has an interesting way of handling downtime...
"You're character begins crafting his new sword.. roll.. ok."
*looks at the other players*
"What do the rest of you do?"
*crafting players spends 1-2 hours sitting at the table doing nothing*
Sometimes I wish crafting wasn't part of the game, but I understand why it is and I've used it.
... btw, that dm treats players that go drinking & wenching the same way. :)
"downtime" doesn't mean just sitting around/boozing/whoring.
LIES!
Assuming all humans, you are only walking for 21 days. At 2 hours/day, that's barely enough time to make a +1 sword.And if you're upgrading from +1 to +2, well, you can start on your the way there, then work some more on the reutrn trip, then after you get home, if time permits, you can spend the last 9 days in your workshop to finish it.
Oh, wait, but you actually wanted to use the magic sword when you got there in the first place? Sorry, no dice.
Even more interestingly, is that you began working on upgrading your +1 sword to +2 on the way there, which means you spend the 3,000 on materials up front. When you got there, you found a dungeon. In that dungeon was a +2 sword. Well, OK, at least you can start using it right away, but now you've wasted your time and money on the +2 sword you're making - the only way not to thow away 3,000 gp is to finish making the sword you don't need any more, then sell it. Ah, my, at least it's profit. (My point here is that, unless you're crafting something unusual, you're often likely to find it, or a suitable alterntative, just by adventuring long before you can create it at 2 hours per day.
Ok, first off, no need for all the sarcasm DM, I'll assume you're just having a bad day. I'll word my post in sarcasm too though, so you can see why it's not conducive to a conversation.
Wow DM, you must have like, the most worthless DM ever if he gives you everything you want every time you enter a dungeon! My goodness, the games must be the most boring things in the world... oh wait, you're the DM? Wow... sorry 'bout that.
I can't see what use you'd get out of a +1 sword after that travel, I mean, it's not like you could put 500gp into it and sell it for 750 to 1250gp, I mean, my god that would be useful if you could do it, but wow, that's like, totally not possible so you're right, it's completely utterly useless to have any rules for this. You might just as well outlaw it in it's entireity.
Those are sooooo very hard to take into most dungeons.Ah, I'll never forget the day when my poor gypsy wagon/forge sank to the bottom of the sea because we brought it along on an underwater adventure...
Oh!
I didn't realize you were in a video game where every adventure takes place in a dungeon! My god, that must get soooooo boring, constantly walking around a dungeon all the time. Tell me, are they those stupid 10 by 20 square dungeons like they used to have in Wizardry back when it was played on an Apple IIe? I hated those dungeons, although the magic ring that let you turn a N Rogue into a N Ninja was cool.
And as to the ocean bottom, well, dang, I really do think you'd better kill the idiot who thought that was a good idea. I mean, obviously you should have a freaking ship when on the ocean, not a stupid little wagon. I mean, obviously there's WAY more room on a ship for a little crafting lab. Sheesh.
[/sarcasm]
Seriously DM, I'm more than happy to discuss things on the board with you, you usually have good ideas. You also, unfortunately, have a real tendancy to post the snarkiest messages you can think of. It's not a pleasant way to discourse, now is it?
... btw, that dm treats players that go drinking & wenching the same way. :)
that is kind of sad, I have had some of my best roleplay experiences drinking and wenching. Though generally it is because my character decides to do interesting and creative things during. I believe in more then calling from the kitchen "Roll the dice to see if I get drunk".
that is kind of sad, I have had some of my best roleplay experiences drinking and wenching. Though generally it is because my character decides to do interesting and creative things during. I believe in more then calling from the kitchen "Roll the dice to see if I get drunk".
... btw, that dm treats players that go drinking & wenching the same way. :)
We had an Ibixian Barbarian that kept getting drunk, so the rest of the PC's started taking him to temples when he was passed out and having lewd tattoo's put on his back while he was unconscious. He couldn't see them, so he never could figure out why people would laugh when he took his breast plate off.
We had an Ibixian Barbarian that kept getting drunk, so the rest of the PC's started taking him to temples when he was passed out and having lewd tattoo's put on his back while he was unconscious. He couldn't see them, so he never could figure out why people would laugh when he took his breast plate off.that is kind of sad, I have had some of my best roleplay experiences drinking and wenching. Though generally it is because my character decides to do interesting and creative things during. I believe in more then calling from the kitchen "Roll the dice to see if I get drunk".
... btw, that dm treats players that go drinking & wenching the same way. :)
my personal favorite was when i started a blood feud between two rival noble houses (opposed to my own family) with some clever uses of illusion and enchantment spells. You would be surprised who would turn up at the local watering holes in that game. It was fun.
Seriously DM, I'm more than happy to discuss things on the board with you, you usually have good ideas. You also, unfortunately, have a real tendancy to post the snarkiest messages you can think of. It's not a pleasant way to discourse, now is it?
Sorry, it wasn't aimed at you. I should have made that more clear.
I am in the camp that believes magic item creation takes way too long. I guess that's because every campaign I've ever cared about (mine or other DMs') have always been rather epic, with lots going on, and with a world that wouldn't stop to wait for us to spend months of downtime crafting what we wanted.
As for my example traveling and making the sword, that was a general point that it is just not practical to create magic items while traveling to and from adventures, even when they are 500 miles away. There just isn't time.
And it costs 1,315 gold to craft and you can sell it for half of 2,315, which equals, oh, wait, crap, a net loss of 158 gold, give or take. Unless you also make the masterwork sword itself, which then means more time, but now you can sell it for exactly your material cost.
I suppose you could get into Diplomacy and haggling, and if you're good, maybe even turn a profit (although if you're low enough level to care about +1 weapons, you will find many merchants are as good or better than you at Diplomacy, and they might even out-haggle you and cost you even more gold).
Again, I'm not directing that sarcasm at you; it's directed at the system itself.
As for the wagon at the bottom of the sea, I was trying to be funny. Sorry it sounded snarky. But really, traveling everywhere you go with portable workshops at your beck and call to allow for daily crafting is just not always possible. Imagine if Aragorn had his own portable forge in Bree and wanted to lug it across Middle Earth while he forged Narsil back into a useful blade (assuming he had brought the shards with him too). That wagon would have been awkward in all those moors, at weathertop, in the Misty Mountains, in Moria, in Lothlorien, on the river in those little canoes, and it would have slowed him down immensely while they tried to chase the orcs who took Merry and Pippin. Just one example.
Sure, it would be nice if adventurers always had their adventures out on the wide open plains of Kansas, where a trundling wain with a fully operation forge in it might be operation while moving, or even just park it for 8 hours of smithing every day. But Kansas does get boring after a while...
(sarcasm at Kansas that time).
As for getting what I want every time I go into a dungeon, lol, not in the least. You'll note I did say that my comment was not applicable to crafting unusual items (my exact words were "unless you're crafting something unusual, you're often likely to find it, or a suitable alterntative" which rules out unusual stuff and I still said "often likely" which definitely leaves the possibility of not finding it, and I also included the possibility of not finding what you're making but finding a suitable alternative). I don't think a +1 or +2 sword is all that rare. I'm fairly sure that any decent-sized dungeon (etc.) will have a couple decent magical weapons in there before we're through, and in many cases, finding a +1 flaming battleaxe would be a suitable alternative to a +2 sword.
So, again, sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic at you. I was only trying to use sarcasm to point out the silliness of trying to be an adventuring craftsman in any version of 3.x/Pathfinder.
I'm not sure we actually have "downtime" per se in our games, as that would imply "on-the-side bits that happen off-camera", and the heroes' personal endeavours are just as integral a part of the campaign as the adventuring bits. Whatsmore, the few times that we do compress time is actually part of the adventuring bits (ex: a week of comprehensive intelligence gathering regarding our next target).
Good gamers don't need story hooks to create stories for themselves. In fact, it's sometimes harder to break out of "downtime" to do some actual adventuring!QFT.
They certainly improved (leveled up) over the course of the story, most dramatically GandalfI still say Gandalf was overpowered. Someday the Tolkien estate will listen to my requests to nerf the Mayar race.Gandalf was overpowered? Not for a demi-god which is what the Maiar were ;) For a demi-god he was pretty limited really.
-Weylin
LoL, he wasn't overpowered even for a mortal.
During the whole trilogy he cast about a half-dozen spells, many of which were cantrips or mere illusions. He did have a whole lot of knowledge, but even at that, he had to run off and research the ring of power because, with all his knowledge, he didn't actually know the whole story of the most powerful and most dangerous and most famous item ever known to man, elf, dwarf, or Mayar.
His only really interesting accomplisments were making friends with unusual stuff, like the Eagles and Shadowfax.
Oh, he did fight the Balrog mano-a-mano. Or so he says. Nobody saw him do it. For all we know it still sits in the lower halls of Moria. If we do take his word for it, well, then this is the one and only thing he really did that would impress a 3rd level Pathfinder wizard.
This was being discussed in another thread but I thought perhaps to end the threadjack since I think this is a potentially interesting discussion.
My question to everyone is, how do you and your groups like to handle downtime? Do you include days, weeks, months or years between adventure arcs for pc's to do things like join/form organizations, persue political aspirations, open buisinesses, craft magical items, research spells etc?
I personally find it strange if there isnt a significant amount of such downtime. As someone said in another thread, if there is constant action, it starts to be a video game. Believable characters do not adventure every day of their lives, and they do things other then adventure. I also like it when players tie themselves to the setting. If players are able to hold a political office, start a buisiness, join/create an organization. For one it puts some use into the proffession skills, another it provides lots of great future plot hooks. The fighters new apprentice is kidnapped, the bard's political opponent is the BBEG, Or the clerics new organization is waging a campaign against the undead in region x.
The downtime also applies heavily to spellcasters, particularly the wizard, in allowing for the crafting of magic items, and the researching of new spells.
In addition I feel a charcter's career should be over a lifetime, if there isn't significant downtime, every character would hit epic levels in their 20's.
What are everyone's thoughts on the matter?
Once, before leaving our power monger out from the group I tried to leave a year or so between adventures. After 3 hour debate trying to explain that he really didn't gain at least 5 more levels during that time (lack of opportunity / family / clan / actually learning his skills rather than insta-knowldge) I've found out, that introducing downtime is not always a good idea.
Never had the same problem since that time tough.
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http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html.
If we ever had downtime my fine-sized character would use his Perform (Sexual Techniques) to earn some coin. He'd earn even more once he hit level 12 and acquired Greater Sustenance as he wouldn't need to breathe.
Sorry, it wasn't aimed at you. I should have made that more clear.
No problem, I can understand that. Just hard to tell from text who it's directed at.
I am in the camp that believes magic item creation takes way too long. I guess that's because every campaign I've ever cared about (mine or other DMs') have always been rather epic, with lots going on, and with a world that wouldn't stop to wait for us to spend months of downtime crafting what we wanted.As for my example traveling and making the sword, that was a general point that it is just not practical to create magic items while traveling to and from adventures, even when they are 500 miles away. There just isn't time.
I'l agree with that, it does take much too long a time. My point with the sword was basically that since it doesn't cost you anything to work on it in the evenings and get 2 hours, it's kind of a waste not to be working on something as you travel. Sure, it takes awhile, but it doesn't cost anything beyond the cost of the raw materials, and you can give it to followers, to cohorts, the town guard as a present, etc. There's lots of things to do with those small magical items that you create on the road other than use them or sell them.
And it costs 1,315 gold to craft and you can sell it for half of 2,315, which equals, oh, wait, crap, a net loss of 158 gold, give or take. Unless you also make the masterwork sword itself, which then means more time, but now you can sell it for exactly your material cost.I suppose you could get into Diplomacy and haggling, and if you're good, maybe even turn a profit (although if you're low enough level to care about +1 weapons, you will find many merchants are as good or better than you at Diplomacy, and they might even out-haggle you and cost you even more gold).
I usually allow a starting sell of 70% myself for freshly created items. I've always taken the 50% as the value of a used item (that sword you found in the dungeon is old, beaten, got nicks in the blade, etc). Brand new right out of the forge items are worth more. Granted, that's a house rule, but it's still logical. Plus, unless the merchant critically succeeds or the player critically fails (rolls a 1), I've never forced them to sell on a negotiation roll (same as I never force them to buy either, except on a critical success/fail). All the fact he out negotiated you means is that he convinced you it was worth less, so I make them start out with the next person at halfway between 50% and where the last guy got them down to.
As for the wagon at the bottom of the sea, I was trying to be funny. Sorry it sounded snarky. But really, traveling everywhere you go with portable workshops at your beck and call to allow for daily crafting is just not always possible. Imagine if Aragorn had his own portable forge in Bree and wanted to lug it across Middle Earth while he forged Narsil back into a useful blade (assuming he had brought the shards with him too). That wagon would have been awkward in all those moors, at weathertop, in the Misty Mountains, in Moria, in Lothlorien, on the river in those little canoes, and it would have slowed him down immensely while they tried to chase the orcs who took Merry and Pippin. Just one example.
Nope, never said it was able to go everywhere, but, you can usually store it somewhere when you have to go somewhere it can't. If I knew I was going on a scouting mission, I'd leave it in a town somewhere and pay for it's storage. On the other hand, if I'm heading from the Capital of Flugerstan to the Capital of Mushgeton carrying some things for the merchants guild, there's no reason not to use the wagon. It's not an always thing, it's a 'when I can use it it's a nice thing to have' kind of thing. Like a horse, I can't take it down into a dungeon, but when I'm not in the dungeon it's very nice to have.
Sure, it would be nice if adventurers always had their adventures out on the wide open plains of Kansas, where a trundling wain with a fully operation forge in it might be operation while moving, or even just park it for 8 hours of smithing every day. But Kansas does get boring after a while...(sarcasm at Kansas that time).
Kansas is always boring, no matter how you go through it. But again, if you have to go from Missouri to Nevada, you're probably going through Kansas, and if you HAVE to go through Kansas, I'd rather spend it in the wagon working on things than deal with Kansas. ;)
As for getting what I want every time I go into a dungeon, lol, not in the least. You'll note I did say that my comment was not applicable to crafting unusual items (my exact words were "unless you're crafting something unusual, you're often likely to find it, or a suitable alterntative" which rules out unusual stuff and I still said "often likely" which definitely leaves the possibility of not finding it, and I also included the possibility of not finding what you're making but finding a suitable alternative). I don't think a +1 or +2 sword is all that rare. I'm fairly sure that any decent-sized dungeon (etc.) will have a couple decent magical weapons in there before we're through, and in many cases, finding a +1 flaming battleaxe would be a suitable alternative to a +2 sword.
True, but as I said, there's more than just using an item for a reason to make it. A lot of times a small town might have 2 masterwork swords, giving them 10 that you made while adventuring can earn an awful lot of good-will.
So, again, sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic at you. I was only trying to use sarcasm to point out the silliness of trying to be an adventuring craftsman in any version of 3.x/Pathfinder.
No worries, just having a bad day myself. :)
LoL, he wasn't overpowered even for a mortal.
During the whole trilogy he cast about a half-dozen spells, many of which were cantrips or mere illusions. He did have a whole lot of knowledge, but even at that, he had to run off and research the ring of power because, with all his knowledge, he didn't actually know the whole story of the most powerful and most dangerous and most famous item ever known to man, elf, dwarf, or Mayar.
His only really interesting accomplisments were making friends with unusual stuff, like the Eagles and Shadowfax.
Oh, he did fight the Balrog mano-a-mano. Or so he says. Nobody saw him do it. For all we know it still sits in the lower halls of Moria. If we do take his word for it, well, then this is the one and only thing he really did that would impress a 3rd level Pathfinder wizard.
*brings his Decanter of Endless Vitriol*
<OBVIOUS PARODY>
He does magic! He doesn't need torches to create light! It's unbalanced!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1oneoneone
He soloed a Balrog while Boromir died with a bloody Uruk-hai! He's also proficient in the sword, that was fighters' only claim to fame! He didn't need a bard either for his 10-years research! He doesn't even need party members! Why can't the Tolkien Estate understand mayars are bloody broken!? Don't tell me to go to 4E I wan't balance here and now! Give me a full rewrite of the trilogy! Even the LotR's MMO banned magic why can't you *rest becomes lost as non-stop unintelligible garble*
</OBVIOUS PARODY>
But yeah, actually he killed the Balrog or at least he did AFAIK... and evenso that stunt is dwarfed by the elven king of the first age (pun intended) who got to "solo" 6 Balrogs, one of them the king of balrogs himself. =)
Hmm, I wonder whether good old Tolkien had to deal with fair-and-balanced advocates too back in his day, or whether Clive Staples Lewis later on started a re-write of Tolkien's work, advertising something the likes of:
Boromir doesn't suck - He's now a lot lighter in armor.
Pippin doesn't suck - Trolls now really fear the hobbit.
Faramir doesn't suck - He can now lead his armies in battle in a way that would make even his father proud.
Rohirrim don't suck - Their horses now can really plow through enemy lines.
Gamgee doesn't suck - Okay he does, but now he swallows too!
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... btw, that dm treats players that go drinking & wenching the same way. :)that is kind of sad, I have had some of my best roleplay experiences drinking and wenching.
Well sometimes he lets it slide when everyone is doing it, but he's a methodical DM that doesn't let the players side track the adventure. If he plans for use to go from B to C, we'll get there even if we decided to go to E instead. He finds a clever mechanic to get us back on track.
he's a methodical DM that doesn't let the players side track the adventure. If he plans for use to go from B to C, we'll get there even if we decided to go to E instead. He finds a clever mechanic to get us back on track.
You have my condolences.
I'm not sure I'd find his mechanics "clever" though, it takes more savvy and ingenue to roll with the players' choices and let the story flow than to just come up with a reinforcement patch for a black box.
Still, it's fun to picture the situation, I can't help remember the long-dead webcomic "Chainmail Bikini". Too bad the authors took it offline, it was the single most educative example of railroading, bad DMing, and "DM vs Players" games.=)
This is why I prefer pirate-themed adventures. There's always down time: either sailing to the adventure or guzzling drinks afterward.
he's a methodical DM that doesn't let the players side track the adventure. If he plans for use to go from B to C, we'll get there even if we decided to go to E instead. He finds a clever mechanic to get us back on track.You have my condolences.
I'm not sure I'd find his mechanics "clever" though, it takes more savvy and ingenue to roll with the players' choices and let the story flow than to just come up with a reinforcement patch for a black box.
Still, it's fun to picture the situation, I can't help remember the long-dead webcomic "Chainmail Bikini". Too bad the authors took it offline, it was the single most educative example of railroading, bad DMing, and "DM vs Players" games.=)
One of my favorite examples.
"You're so tired that the ground here isn't restful enough."
Priceless!
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I'm not sure I'd find his mechanics "clever" though, it takes more savvy and ingenue to roll with the players' choices and let the story flow than to just come up with a reinforcement patch for a black box.
By my estimates most of the worst adventure ever (played in or heard about) are a result of the players going off base. Sure planned adventures can be just as bad, but Good DM or not, there's no "story" if all you do is buck the DM's plans and turn right every time you're supposed to turn left.
By my estimates most of the worst adventure ever (played in or heard about) are a result of the players going off base.
Correction, most of the worst adventures (played or heard about) are a result of stringent GMs hell-bent on railroading players and forcing them to do things -they don't want-. Players don't stray from doing things they enjoy and want to do, the moment they start "going off base" we have a problem.
Sure planned adventures can be just as bad, but Good DM or not, there's no "story" if all you do is buck the DM's plans and turn right every time you're supposed to turn left.
Then again, why must the DM be the only one with plans? Roleplay is a team sport, stories are meant to be woven by everyone. PCs should never be "suposed to turn right/left", DMs who want actors in their play rather than player characters should be writing books instead, not DMing. If I wanted passive entertainment I'd hire cable T.V.