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I've always been a cue-card wielding DM, but I see so many products and programs that state "track initiative easier". Is this something Game Masters have a problem with? What are some other techniques people use?
The last several months I've been using Paizo's combat tracker pad that they sell. Before that I'd tried 3x5 note cards as well as just using a sheet of paper to write them down. I may try initiative cards again if I get around to making a form fillable pdf with 6 to a normal size sheet of card stock. I want something that not only looks good but will also be easy and convenient to fill out and print.
Also our refocus roll is a reroll not an automatic 20.
Just curious, but why would you ever do that? Do players actually choose to refocus with this houserule?
I ask, because think of it this way:
Here are some example initiatives:
Round 1
18 Rogue
16 Fighter
15 Orc
13 Wizard
8 Bugbear
7 Cleric
Round 2
20 Rogue
16 Fighter
15 Orc
13 Cleric (DEX 9)
8 Bugbear
7 Wizard (DEX 12)
You do allow the delay action, right?
Now, suppose the wizard decides to delay to a later initiative. He could delay to a 6, or a 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1. No matter what he decides, he will still go after the bugbear and before the rogue's turn on round 2.
Now suppose he wants to refocus (official rule, 20+Init Mod). That puts him at a 21 on round 2. This means he still goes after the bugbear (on round 1) and before the rogue (on round 2). In fact, in this example, a delay til 1 is pretty much exactly the same as a refocus.
If I were the wizard here and I thought I wanted to refocus, but I knew I would have to use your houserule, I would say "Screw refocus, I will just delay to 1" and achieve exactly the same thing.
Now look at the cleric. He could delay to 12, 11, 10, or 9 and still be ahead of the bugbear. Delay to 8 and go simultaneously with the bugbear or delay to 7 and go simultaneously with the wizard. Or he could delay to 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 and go after the wizard.
Or he could refocus to a 19. Now he will go after the rogue on round 2. Suppose he thought about refocusing by your houserule. He would have to roll a 15 or higher to get any benefit from it at all, only a 30% chance of improving his rank in the initiative. And he has to give up his turn in round 1 to do that!
Who in their right mind would throw away their entire round to get a 30% chance of improving his initiative next round?
Suppose he rolls a 14. Now he has managed to give up his entire action on round 1 and remained in the exact same initiative spot in the combat. If he rolls a 13 or less, he gave up an entire round to go slower next round.
Yeah, so, maybe your refocus rule is only for people with crappy initiatives who stand a good chance of improving their lot (but, still a chance of getting the same or worse and giving up a whole action in the process).
But even so, why would any of them choose to refocus to a random initiative next round when they could simply delay to a 1 this round with ZERO risk of losing their action this round?
Sorry, that was way off topic, but I just can't get my head around seeing any reason for this houserule and I'm hoping you can offer up something to make it seem worthwhile (if you can, then maybe I'll learn something about initiative that I had never thought of before).
I've always been a cue-card wielding DM, but I see so many products and programs that state "track initiative easier". Is this something Game Masters have a problem with? What are some other techniques people use?
Sorry, now that I derailed the topic, lemme put it back on track.
Over the years the simplest method I have used is to write down the initiatives on the same battlemat where we're drawing out our dungeon. In fact, I usually ask one of the players to track the initiative. I give them the eraseable marker, and as each player rolls initiative, they write it down, on the mat, where everyone can see it - leaving room in between so he can add each player and bad guy in the right order. I roll for the bad guys, either singly or in groups, but I don't tell them yet (at the start) because they don't know when the bad guys turns will be.
As the initiative guy calls out the actions, I will eventually interrupt him and say "before the barbarian's turn on 12, the orcs go on 14" or whatever, and then he'll write that in for reference until the battle ends.
It's his job to keep everyone moving, which let's me focus more on the monster's actions and reactions.
However, my current group didn't like that very much and nobody wanted to be the initiative tracker, so right now I'm using Paizo's magnetic tracker, though in truth, it's probably just easier to write them down on a corner of the mat anyway, regardless of whether I do it or a player does.
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I've always been a cue-card wielding DM, but I see so many products and programs that state "track initiative easier". Is this something Game Masters have a problem with? What are some other techniques people use?
I've used a few methods over the years: a) pen on paper; b) cue cards; c) whiteboard (convention held in classrooms, players get to see the character names of everyone at the table, but whiteboard is a little inconvenient for reach); but the best method I've found has been GameMastery Combat Pad by far - slide those little magnetic pieces around, and you'll wonder how you ever survived using anything else!
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Over the years the simplest method I have used is to write down the initiatives on the same battlemat where we're drawing out our dungeon.
I've found in some cases, keeping track of damage directly on the battlemat is easier than recording it on a pad or even the GameMastery Combat Pad, because particularly in encounters with many combatants, you forget which damage applied to which opponent. Writing damage next to each mini directly on the battlemat, you know exactly which opponent it applies to ... unless there's also a lot of movement going on?
I also have a player write it down on the battlemat (if we're using it)and track it.
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I personally use the combat tracker as well, though I have another group whi has someone with a laminator. They create cards with the basic stats that a DM needs (perception, languages etc) then laminates them. Add in some blank cards for the opponents and away you go. The laminating allows the initiative to be written on the cards in whiteboard marker. One of the players is the initiative tracker.
Both systems work well.
Also our refocus roll is a reroll not an automatic 20.Just curious, but why would you ever do that? Do players actually choose to refocus with this houserule?
Blake,
As for why, you cant take a 20 on anything else in combat, usually not even with feats. Usually the best you can do is a take 10 if you have the right feat and only on some skills. Why then should you be able to take 20 on initiative?It breaks consistency of the rules to us. So we altered to fit the base mechanic better.
As for it being used. We do so regularly, including myself. if you roll a 6 on your initiative, odds are good you can drastically increase it with a reroll. And if you are dead last in iniative it cant hurt to try for better.
-Weylin
Interesting.
You know though, you wouldn't be "taking 20" to refocus.
Think of it this way. You could delay to a 1. Or you could delay to 0. But there is no zero, so delaying to 0 is the same as delaying to 20 next round. It really doesn't change the order at all, unless some combatants with good Init Mods are going on initiatives above 20.
Really, it's just a delay action that goes into the next round. Nothing more.
And as for drastically increasing your 6 initiative, here are the options. I will keep it simple. It's just you fighting a single duel against one orc. You're on 6, the orc is on 10.
Note, it's your turn, so the orc has already attacked on 10.
1. Do not refocus. Go on 6 this round and on 6 next round. Benefit: you go, then the orc goes, then you go again - by the end of next round you will get two attacks and the orc will only get one more.
2. Refocus and roll well (example: 20). Benefit: you go, then the orc goes, then you go again - by the end of next round you will get two attacks and the orc will only get one more (same benefit as the #1).
3. Refocus and roll average (example: 11). Benefit: you go, then the orc goes, then you go again - by the end of next round you will get two attacks and the orc will only get one more (same benefit as the #1).
4. Refocus and roll poorly (example: 8). Benefit: you do nothing but refocus, then the orc goes, then you go again - by the end of next round you will get one attack and the orc will only get one more (in this case, you have lost your first action and gained nothing in return for it).
5. Refocus and roll very badly (example: 1). Benefit: you do nothing but refocus, then the orc goes, then you go again - by the end of next round you will get one attack and the orc will only get one more (in this case, you have lost your first action and gained nothing in return for it).
So, with a good roll, or even a perfect roll, you get nothing - it's exactly the same as if you just attack each round without refocusing. But with a bad roll, you lose your entire round and get nothing in return for it.
Best possible case using your refocus rule is that you get .
Now here's the funny part. That is also the best possible case if you refocus using the original rule that you act next round as if you had rolled a natural 20.
So why even refocus at all (with either rule). Truth is, there is usually very little (or nothing) to be gained by it, other than bragging rights - it sounds better to go first in round 2 than it does to go last in round 1.
So with the original refocus rule, it's just a way to get a little bragging rights without gaining or losing much of anything mechancially.
But with your refocus rule, you still cannot gain anything more than bragging rights, but you stand to lose an entire round on a bad roll. I cannot think of any time, any situation, at all, that I would take this gamble - I would never refocus in a game where refocus works as you describe it.
Then again, that's just me. It's somewhat metagamey, and a living, breathing fighter facing an orc might not know all the metagmey rules the way I do - but he's damn sure going to hit that orc just as hard and just as often as he can, and it would be hard to fool him into standing around and letting the orc attack twice if there is any way to avoid it (and it would be almost as hard to fool him into flipping a coin or rolling a knucklebone to see if the orc can attack twice or only once).
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We use a little magnetic whiteboard with magnets. The magnets have strips of whiteboard glued to them, upon which we write the characters names. We have some others with Allies, Opponent, Enemy, etc permanently marked on them.
We don't mark the initiative number, just place the markers in order. When someone delays, they delay until before or after another, there is no reason to remember the original initiative number after the board is set-up.
As the character are on magnets, their marker just slides into place. Quick and easy. Everyone can see who is next, and a player works the board, freeing the DM up for everything else.
It is the same as the combat tracker, but we made our own.
Refocus? You do realize that refocusing hasn't been a part of the game since 3.0 went away? Neither 3.5 nor Pathfinder has this rule. These day, you simply delay into the next round.
You could also used printable magnetic paper (you should be able to find it in the photo paper section of your staionary store)
Here's a cheap option:
8 In. x 15.5 In. White magnetic vent covers.
Cut one sheet into 1" x 3" pieces that you can write a name and initiative on with dry erase markers. You place them on another sheet and can move around as needed. Makes tracking easy as pie.
$4.47/EA-Each for a 3 pack
Yes, I have trouble keeping track of initiative, but then in my game initiative is rolled every round, something I've done since 3.0. I use the combat tracker (and need to get a new one, the edges are delaminating on me).
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The Combat Tracker is why I brought this up. This past weekend I had a quick chat with a couple GMs that swear by it. It does look easy to use and handles a lot of variables in clever ways so I can see it helping in combat. What I'm not sure is if I want to buy something to improve a part of the game I don't have trouble with.
Blake, I must say writing the order directly on the mat intrigues me. The fewer things I need to manage behind the screen, the better.
Personally, I run everything from my laptop, so I just have a spreadsheet with the party's information in it, and quickly tack on the initiatives and hit points of any other combatants. then I can reference the sheet and what I have written in the adventure for the monster, and I'm good to go.
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I use a laptop as well, but instead of a spreadsheet, I use an initiative tracker PDF form that works very well, from SSA-X2 (available here). Its listed as a "public alpha", but as far as I am aware, they never finished the product entirely, even though it works very well. It does include a dice-rolling function as well, though I still prefer either the real dice, or many times I use the Virtual Dice Tray app from Myth Forge Software. Very nice interface for when you have lots of dice to roll (and to keep the group guessing), and optionally has sound effects.
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I use my laptop and use the DMs Familiar program that keeps track of the intitiative and makes all the attacks and damage rolls for all the NPCs, creatures, summoned allies etc on their turn for initiative.
Greatly speeds up combat by doing all that for you.
(as well as keeps durations tracked for spells, and saving throws, skill checks, CMB etc).
Robert
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i use inittool from RPTools for tracking on my laptop. its pretty intuitive and you can add timers for effects, toggle delay and redied statuses, quickly switch orders and create groups for use in future encounters.
I think I've tried every option out there for keeping track of initiative. (Including creating a very complex excel spreadsheet which makes it really easy). My favorite method though, and one that is used by all the groups I play with now, is the Gamemastery Combat Pad. I clipped mine to a cheap paper stand I got from a stationary store, which makes it easy for everyone to see.
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I use my laptop and use the DMs Familiar program that keeps track of the intitiative and makes all the attacks and damage rolls for all the NPCs, creatures, summoned allies etc on their turn for initiative.
Greatly speeds up combat by doing all that for you.
(as well as keeps durations tracked for spells, and saving throws, skill checks, CMB etc).
Robert
So is DM's familiar updated for PF rules? Does it cost anything? How much?
Refocus? You do realize that refocusing hasn't been a part of the game since 3.0 went away? Neither 3.5 nor Pathfinder has this rule. These day, you simply delay into the next round.
Yep, that's why I reference the "original" refocus rule, rather than the "core" refocus rule or "RAW" refocus rule, neither of which exist in Pathfinder.
I assumed he knew that too.
Combat Pad.
I do use a laptop for PDFs, excel, PRD, and MapTool (with another screen hooked up to the lap). I still use the Combat Pad. Initiative was never better.
Plus, I have a bunch of pens that write on it. Good for HP tracking.
And sometimes I write "KILL ALL MY PLAYERS" and let my players have a peek. And then I smile at them.
My players are very well-behaved, never looking behind my screen.
As for initiative: You roll it once. And then you're done rolling (for that fight). Once everyone had a go, the numbers become meaningless. If you prepare an action or delay, you get right before or behind someone else. If you "fall off the edge", you drop back down from above, since it only looks like a line, but is actually a circle. Euclidean space doesn't belong to initiative.