So I have a party in Ravenloft, and there's quite the chance one of them will contract Lycanthropy in the near future. I've read up on the Savage Progressions Werewolf, which is three levels of Werewolf with no hit dice plus 2 levels of Wolf with 1 HD (d8) each. Is this even worth it? Losing 5 class levels to be down three HD seems pretty useless. Obviously the party always has the option of trying to remove the lycanthropy, but, if they wanted to keep it, are these rules fair and useful, or is the person who has this getting ripped off. I'm not asking if it's optimized, or specific build information, just if it's a reasonable exchange for 5 levels.
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In 3.5, I would say yes. You gain a number of other benefits from the non-hit die "levels" that make up for it. That is what Level Adjustment was all about.
But, since this thread is in the Pathfinder RPG forum, I would recommend not using the Template Classes from Savage Progressions, because Level Adjustment is not a part of the Pathfinder RPG.
Take a look in the Council of Thieves' Players' Guide. There are some suggestions about how to handle more-powerful races in there. (Specifically talking about Tieflings, but could be applied to others.)
You might also want to wait a bit until the PRPG Bestiary comes out, and see how the Lycanthropy rules work now. I have no idea if they have been changed from 3.5. If they're significantly different, the Werewolf Template Class probably wouldn't be appropriate anyway.
Though, of course, YMMV.
But, in 3.5, you think it was a reasonable way to go? Not wasted levels?
But, since this thread is in the Pathfinder RPG forum, I would recommend not using the Template Classes from Savage Progressions, because Level Adjustment is not a part of the Pathfinder RPG.
I hadn't really taken that into account. Not sure how it would do any harm; I mean other modular rules are not part of Pathfinder but can easily be fit into a PF campaign. Any specific reasons why one couldn't fit a Level adjusted character into the game, just as in 3.5?
You might also want to wait a bit until the PRPG Bestiary comes out, and see how the Lycanthropy rules work now. I have no idea if they have been changed from 3.5. If they're significantly different, the Werewolf Template Class probably wouldn't be appropriate anyway.
This is a good point. At the rate of Real Time we're working through the current story, Bestiary will probably be out by the time this comes up anyway.
So I have a party in Ravenloft, and there's quite the chance one of them will contract Lycanthropy in the near future. I've read up on the Savage Progressions Werewolf, which is three levels of Werewolf with no hit dice plus 2 levels of Wolf with 1 HD (d8) each. Is this even worth it? Losing 5 class levels to be down three HD seems pretty useless.
The point with the Savage Progressions is that you don't have to take all 5 of those class levels (because, as you note, it's not worth it). You can just take one (or two or three or four), if you want.
Actually, you wouldn't take 5 levels if you caught lycanthropy; the 5-level version is only for natural lycanthropes.
I assume you're talking about this, right?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a
Actually, you wouldn't take 5 levels if you caught lycanthropy; the 5-level version is only for natural lycanthropes.
I assume you're talking about this, right?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a
Yeah, that's it. You're right, you would take only 2 of the Werewolf, plus the two levels of Wolf. But Werewolf is useless without a level of wolf because you don't get the wolf (or the hybrid's) natural abilities without it. So you need to have at least a level of Were and 1 of Wolf before it's worth anything.
I guess that makes sense, looking at it. If the character takes a while to learn he/she is a were, they might have leveled twice before they have any real control over it. So only 2 levels w/o Hit Dice plus 2 with. I guess that makes it a little better.
I am part werewolf ...
See --> Hamramr
Yeah, that's it. You're right, you would take only 2 of the Werewolf, plus the two levels of Wolf. But Werewolf is useless without a level of wolf because you don't get the wolf (or the hybrid's) natural abilities without it. So you need to have at least a level of Were and 1 of Wolf before it's worth anything.Actually, you wouldn't take 5 levels if you caught lycanthropy; the 5-level version is only for natural lycanthropes.
I assume you're talking about this, right?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a
Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "worth anything"; even without any levels in wolf, you still get a few other benefits (Wis +2, natural armor +2, low-light vision) besides the mostly-useless wolf form.
The point with the Savage Progressions is that you don't have to take all 5 of those class levels (because, as you note, it's not worth it). You can just take one (or two or three or four), if you want.
False. You MUST take all Savage Progression levels before taking a level in anything else. Non-negotiable.
The intent of the Savage Species rules is to provide a way to use creatures with Level Adjustments in a party of any level within the base rules provided by the game.
Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "worth anything"; even without any levels in wolf, you still get a few other benefits (Wis +2, natural armor +2, low-light vision) besides the mostly-useless wolf form.
Okay, I didn't state that very clearly. I guess what I mean by "worth anything" is "worth a class level". Gaining +2 Wis and natural armor doesn't seem worth a class level (no HP, no save, no BAB, no skills). So until you're an effective were-creature, it seems to me like a bad trade. It's starting to seem like it will be effective after putting two levels in, though.
Okay, I didn't state that very clearly. I guess what I mean by "worth anything" is "worth a class level". Gaining +2 Wis and natural armor doesn't seem worth a class level (no HP, no save, no BAB, no skills). So until you're an effective were-creature, it seems to me like a bad trade. It's starting to seem like it will be effective after putting two levels in, though.
Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "worth anything"; even without any levels in wolf, you still get a few other benefits (Wis +2, natural armor +2, low-light vision) besides the mostly-useless wolf form.
Actually, +2 Wisdom is equivalent to getting +1 Will save and +1 in every Wisdom-based skill, plus it increases Wisdom-based casting and class features. Heck, it can even increase attack rolls with the right class features or feats.
The point with the Savage Progressions is that you don't have to take all 5 of those class levels (because, as you note, it's not worth it). You can just take one (or two or three or four), if you want.False. You MUST take all Savage Progression levels before taking a level in anything else. Non-negotiable.
The intent of the Savage Species rules is to provide a way to use creatures with Level Adjustments in a party of any level within the base rules provided by the game.
But the afflicted Were (as opposed to a natural) is specifically restricted from gaining the 3rd level of Werewolf, meaning only 4 levels. The web page also makes is clear that the animal (wolf) levels are completely optional, so I guess you would only be required to take your two levels of Werewolf concurrently.
But the afflicted Were (as opposed to a natural) is specifically restricted from gaining the 3rd level of Werewolf, meaning only 4 levels. The web page also makes is clear that the animal (wolf) levels are completely optional, so I guess you would only be required to take your two levels of Werewolf concurrently.
Actually, I'm curious: where is the Werewolf coming from? I can't find it in my copy of Savage Species.
Actually, I'm curious: where is the Werewolf coming from? I can't find it in my copy of Savage Species.
Zurai -- look at the wizards.com link I posted above. We're not talking about Savage Species; we're talking about a series of articles by Sean K Reynolds that don't use the Savage Species rules. In his proposed progressions, you don't have to take all the levels (which creates some strange situations, like taking a single level of Ghost giving you etherealness).
Ohhhhh... I apologize, then. Mea culpa.
Beastiary PC rules also need a little refinement too.
I would like to see a remake of The Council of Wyrms too.
Just noticed something. That first level of Werewolf makes gives the character +2 Wisdom and +2 Natural Armor. That buffs a monk's AC up real good. If the monk can get control of their changes, that alone is almost worth 1 level (at least during the lower levels, realizing your sacrificing a lot by not getting to 20 later on).
Just noticed something. That first level of Werewolf makes gives the character +2 Wisdom and +2 Natural Armor. That buffs a monk's AC up real good. If the monk can get control of their changes, that alone is almost worth 1 level (at least during the lower levels, realizing your sacrificing a lot by not getting to 20 later on).
Well, that's the whole point -- each level of the progression is supposed to be worth one level.
The down side is that you transform into a (pseudo-)wolf (without any of the benefits of being a wolf) without any control over it (when it's a full moon, or when you take damage, etc.).
Dragon 313. The PDF is for sale on Paizo here.
It's a five level progression, rather than a 3-2 split. The final level is the natural werewolf abilities, and an infected character isn't supposed to take it, like the final werewolf level in the Savage Progression download. There isn't one for Werewolf Lord, unlike the WotC article.
The abilities are more... spread out... I think the best way to put it would be. Rather than being forced to compress the lycanthropic benefits into just two levels (plus the final level for the natural werewolf benefits), and the wolf benefits into just two levels, they use the total four levels to spread all the gains progressively by smaller amounts rather than sudden large jumps of bonuses.
Overall, I'd say the Dragon version makes more sense from both a fluff and crunch viewpoint, since someone taking the levels would be learning about both being a lycanthrope and being a wolf at the same time. Splitting them into two classes seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. YMMV.
Overall, I'd say the Dragon version makes more sense from both a fluff and crunch viewpoint, since someone taking the levels would be learning about both being a lycanthrope and being a wolf at the same time. Splitting them into two classes seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. YMMV.
I would agree, in theory. I'll check it out. Thanks!
Dragon 313. The PDF is for sale on Paizo here.
It's a five level progression, rather than a 3-2 split.
Okay, just downloaded it. It does seem a lot closer to a real "class" than the Savage Progressions version. I think, if anyone chooses to keep the disease, I'll go with this.
I think in keeping with Pathfinder's HD matching BAB, I will up the BAB to middle progression and drop one of the good saves and the extra Hit Dice at levels 3 & 4.
I have the hard copy of the mag., and used it in my last campaign arc. One character had gotten afflicted just as he was about to level. He was a low-level Rogue-Ranger, and I offered him the option of taking a level of Werewolf (he would have gone Ranger, otherwise).Had he decided not to take the level of Werewolf, I would have turned him into an NPC whenever he changed, shifts during moon-phases would have been automatic, and he would not be able to take any Ranks in Control Shape. Taking the Class allowed him to buy Ranks and at least have a chance to control his condition and mitigate his transformation and alignment shift.
The Player, incidentally, did an exceptional job of role-playing this in-session, and for a while several other Players who didn't know what was going on behind the scenes wondered about what was happening ... why Bob was seemingly, slowly and subtly playing his character (over several biweekly session, or months of time real-world) more surly and short-tempered and had gone from very urbane and clean-cut to becoming a Grizzly-Adams clone.
It did help that he had an IC mentor to help teach him to embrace/balance his "inner self", so things like alignment- and shape-shift were not automatic. The storyline played out very well.
FWIW,
Rez
Nice. That's the sort of thing I'm aiming for, if anyone gets infected and takes me up on it.
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So I have a party in Ravenloft, and there's quite the chance one of them will contract Lycanthropy in the near future. I've read up on the Savage Progressions Werewolf, which is three levels of Werewolf with no hit dice plus 2 levels of Wolf with 1 HD (d8) each. Is this even worth it? Losing 5 class levels to be down three HD seems pretty useless. Obviously the party always has the option of trying to remove the lycanthropy, but, if they wanted to keep it, are these rules fair and useful, or is the person who has this getting ripped off. I'm not asking if it's optimized, or specific build information, just if it's a reasonable exchange for 5 levels.
mmmm I thought the idea was that Lycanthropy was a curse, not a class...
So if the idea is to play in Ravenloft and CURSE the player then no it is not worth keeping and the player should not WANT to keep it.
If the idea is to not CURSE the player but instead gift him with some really nifty cool character/class options then I think the GM should find a different way to accomplish said benefits instead of trying to use a CURSE as a nifty cool benefit...
Think about it... :)
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On a side note, I just hope they don´t make werwolfs outright non playable races in the upcoming bestiary. That´d just break my heart.
Having been specifically interested in this, I took a look at the lycanthrope pages in the Bestiary and asked Jason about this at GenConOz this year. They remain as templates, and have been simplified a great deal (he said something around the lines of being a little more difficult than the quick templates, but still not very complex to add). Apparently SKR wrote them up, and there is some influence from his (totally awesome) Curse of the Moon PDF, though I didn't have long enough looking at it to tell you more than that.
BTW, check out that Curse of the Moon PDF. It's really, really awesome in terms of what it does to lycanthropes.
mmmm I thought the idea was that Lycanthropy was a curse, not a class...So if the idea is to play in Ravenloft and CURSE the player then no it is not worth keeping and the player should not WANT to keep it.
If the idea is to not CURSE the player but instead gift him with some really nifty cool character/class options then I think the GM should find a different way to accomplish said benefits instead of trying to use a CURSE as a nifty cool benefit...
Think about it... :)
Certainly, the infection itself is a curse, and I will give the Players the option of having their characters cured from it.
Remember, though, that Players are not Characters. The player might think it's really cool, especially in a Ravenloft setting, to play a character with this particular curse. The character will suffer as a result of this, as do realistically any characters in Ravenloft. But as these particular Players chose to play a "trapped in Ravenloft" campaign, I've got to believe they're up to the role playing challenge.
Having been specifically interested in this, I took a look at the lycanthrope pages in the Bestiary and asked Jason about this at GenConOz this year. They remain as templates, and have been simplified a great deal (he said something around the lines of being a little more difficult than the quick templates, but still not very complex to add).
That's great news. I'll certainly review the Bestiary assuming I get it before the situation comes up.
In 3.5 Lycanthropy as presented as a template in the MM was NOT worth the lost hit dice and levels worth of class abilities, not even for a pure classed Fighter or Barbarian.
Well, most of the templates weren't worth it, certainly not werewolf. I would have liked to try out being a werebear or weretiger though (just would've needed some auto-resizing armor). Being a wereleopard monk was another one of those ideas I always had floating around the back of my head that I could never quite get to fly with my DM. :)