Hi. (Note-some feats listed are from CW,TOB,PH2,CA)
Going into a game, me and another player got our own hook for two brothers (human and half elf) who have some major issues with each other. Thing is they are both damage based TWF.
The Half Elf is a Fighter/Rogue twin scimitar wielder
The Human is a Longsword TWF.
The Human (while younger) is actually the 'mature' one and doesn't buy into the rivalry
The Half-Elf (a bastard from Human dads liason) is a sneak out to prove he's the deadlier/better warrior of the 2.
Human:
Build: Fighter 20
Race: Human Alignment: Lawful Good
Ability Scores:
STR 14 (16)
DEX 17 (20)
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 13
CHA 10
2 Flaws- – Shakey, Merciful
Feats
1Blind Fight, Combat Focus, TWF, Oversize Weapon, Double slice
2Dodge (retrain for ITWF at Level 8)
3Weapon Fcs: Longsword,
4Wpn Spl: Longsword
5Combat Stability,
6Two Weapon Pounce
7Toughness,
8Gtr Wpn Fcs: Longsword
9Combat Vigor,
10Critical Focus
11Two Weapon Rend,
12Gtr Weapon Special: Longsword
13Combat Awareness,
14Improved Crit
15Blinding Crit,
16Penetrating Strike
17Armor Specialisation,
18Gtr Two Weapon Fighting
19Two Weapon Defence,
20Gtr Penetrating Strike,
Ends up with DR7/-, Is an awesome TWF and can still make two attacks after a move (Two Weapon Pounce) with still counts for Double slice and two weapon rend.
In the first 10 to 14 rounds of a combat has fast healing 4, +8 to resist Combat Manuveres (not counting fighter training) and knows the status of HP for all enemies and allies- all from Combat focus, stability, awareness, vigor (PH2)
Half-Elf (Ftr10/Rogue 10)
STR 14 (18)
DEX 19 (20)
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 8
2 Flaws- Shaky, Love of Nature
Feats/Rogue Talents
1Rog1 Vexing Flanker, Improved Buckler Defence, Combat Reflexes, Skill Fcs: Perception
2Ftr1 Stand Still
3Rog2 Evasion, Rogue Talent-Wpn Fcs: Scimitar, TWF
4Ftr2 Bravery, Oversize TWF
5Rog3 SA 2d6, Trap Sense +1, Doubleslice
6Ftr3 Armor Training 1
7Rog4 Uncanny Dodge, Two Weapon Pounce, Rogue Talent-Combat Trick-ITWF
8Ftr4 Weapon Specialization
9Rog5 SA 3d6, Critical Focus
10Ftr5 Weapon Training 1
11Rog6 Trap Sense +2, Improved Critical, Rogue Talent-Minor Magic (Silent Portal)
12Ftr6 Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt,
13Rog7 SA 4d6, Two Weapon Rend
14Ftr7 Armor Training 2
15Rog8 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent-Major Magic (Persistant Blade), Rolibar’s Gambit
16Ftr8 Deft Opportunist
17Rog9 SA 5d6, Martial Stance: Assassin’s Stance
18Ftr9 Weapon Training 2
19Rog10 Blinding Critical, Rogue Talent-Greater Weapon Focus: Scimitar
20Ftr10 Armor Specialisation
Now he gets DR2, A Buckler (with Shield bonus) even when TWF, Stealthy, Two Weapon Pounce (with Doubleslice, Two weapon Rend), +4 on Flanks and AOO (bringing him up with the fighter). Also if he uses Persistant Blade spell it can flank with him for SA,
He can blind enemies (then add SA) and crits 6 out of 20 numbers on a die.
Now the problem- my friend and I build the chars together. We aren't worried too much about battle control (we've got a paladin focusing on bull rushing opponents into us and a conjurer with BC spells) We focus on damage- the rogue moreso.
Both classes fill thier striker roles well And I'll be a decent scout. Similar styles, plays to the hook BUT....
I'm playing the rogue. Looking at the builds I think damage output will be in my favor (just) and my AC is a little better (I get a buckler with same armor worn).
But he's got better BAB (3) and 3 more weapon training (so 6 difference total), around 40 more HP (d10 vs d8 and toughness) plus 10rds Fast Healing Every encounter and my Blinding Crit trick for sneak attack won't work since he has blindfight.
We're gonna fight each other a fair bit- Am I gonna get my a$$ kicked across my whole career?
I think in a straight fight yes. I may have to fight dirty.
Feat changes? or just tactics?
In a straight fight, the half elf will get his butt kicked. The fighter has higher to hit and damage, not to mention Weapon and Armour mastery, which provides him with DR 5 and the ability to ignore any DR the half elf may have. He can also get a higher AC out of full plate, because of a maximum DEX mod of +5, and can ignore up to 10 points of DR from the half elf, regardless of its source. He also has *3 crit damage and cannot be disarmed. The half elf, therefore, needs to be getting sneak attacks in. If he can't do that, he's never going to win.
Not to nit-pick, but if you're the LG Fighter, you can't fight dirty. :)
He's the rogue. And how about we don't get into any alignment arguments? We already have a thread for that.
The One Who Makes You Angry wrote: Not to nit-pick, but if you're the LG Fighter, you can't fight dirty. :) I'm not the LG fighter, he is.
As for the sneak attack- I'll get that in- cast persistant blade and I'll get flanking (+4 with Vexing Flanker) and SA 7d6. But not sure if this is enough.
We won't just be fighting at 20. This will be ongoing over our career.
If I can avoid open fields in daylight, I might be ok. Stick to low light areas with plenty of obstacles SA from 30ft when able till his combat focus is gone THEN melee. It might also be worth activating Rolibar's Gambit when I go toe to toe (persistant blade already cast) that way every time he hits or misses me (I suspect he'd be hitting me alot anyway) I can AOO right back (with SA) on his turn.
Not very flashy but we don't have any trip,bullrush feats so I'd just be trying to outdamage him.
There was no alignment arguement. I didn't see he was playing the rogue so I was mistaken. Relax.
Sorry, I should have made myself clear. The bit about the argument was more to anyone else who may have been as tempted as I was to take issue with it (I disagree with LG not being allowed to fight dirty because I consider there to be many possible interpretations of any given alignment).
Again, my bad, and I'll say no more on the issue of alignment here.
So for a roleplaying topic, is there no hope of reconciliation? WIll you always be fighting?
Genova wrote: So for a roleplaying topic, is there no hope of reconciliation? WIll you always be fighting? If their anything like me and mine, they will always be fighting. :P
Even at Christmas and Thanksgiving.
Moorluck wrote: Genova wrote: So for a roleplaying topic, is there no hope of reconciliation? WIll you always be fighting? If their anything like me and mine, they will always be fighting. :P
Even at Christmas and Thanksgiving. When you Southern Boys stop fighting over your sister, that's a sign of the Apocalypse. :P
Mac Boyce wrote: Moorluck wrote: Genova wrote: So for a roleplaying topic, is there no hope of reconciliation? WIll you always be fighting? If their anything like me and mine, they will always be fighting. :P
Even at Christmas and Thanksgiving. When you Southern Boys stop fighting over your sister, that's a sign of the Apocalypse. :P You. Are. So. Toast.
BRING IT INBREEDER!!!!!!!!
:D
So when you two kill each other, I get both your women right? I am from Utah after all. :)
Only if you can handle a woman who will beat you if you step out of line. I have to tell co-workers I run into doors alot.
Mac Boyce wrote: BRING IT INBREEDER!!!!!!!!
:D
Tell you same thing I tell my PA, inlaws. Last I checked inbreeding happens in climates with long cold winters, you know that type where you get snowed in all winter. Don't get much of that down here... how about up there? ;)
Get a room you two and stop spamming. We have a serious flame war about to break out here.
Mac Boyce wrote: Only if you can handle a woman who will beat you if you step out of line. I have to tell co-workers I run into doors alot.
Better than you can Spartan boy.
Moorluck wrote: Mac Boyce wrote: BRING IT INBREEDER!!!!!!!!
:D
Tell you same thing I tell my PA, inlaws. Last I checked inbreeding happens in climates with long cold winters, you know that type where you get snowed in all winter. Don't get much of that down here... how about up there? ;) Oh we get cold winters up here, but if I do remember my Southern History class (all of 1 hour!) all it takes is a little moonshine to "makes the South rise again" and then you're off looking for your sister or the closest billy goat, Whichever you find first.
:D
David Fryer wrote: Mac Boyce wrote: Only if you can handle a woman who will beat you if you step out of line. I have to tell co-workers I run into doors alot.
Better than you can Spartan boy. Oh I can handle her...just most nights she's the man thats all.
Okkaaayyyy....
This has gone somewhere I didn't expect..
If you want to win consistently without having to run and hide, then pounce out of the shadows and hit once, then run and hide again. I would try this feat combo: Improved Feint + Craven + Staggering Strike = You Win and you don’t have to be stealthy to do it, just have a high Bluff.
Improved Feint = Feinting as a Move Action, so can attack in the same round and should get SA if you are a good Bluffer.
Craven (Champions of Ruin)= add your lvl in damage to your SA. -2 will saves against fear.
Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer) = When you get SA your opponent has to make a Fort save vs. Damage done or be staggered (only one move or one standard action in that round but not both). If he moves you get AoO and if he attacks, so what, your attack does more damage so you will win in a battle of attrition.
If you are going to do this however, I would advise maxing out your Bluff skill and taking Skill Focus Bluff. And to make it even more comical you could beat him with a Sap (non-lethal damage). That way he isn’t bleeding all over the place at the end of combat he is just beat up and an added bonus it will be fun for your friends to watch you smack him around with what basically amounts to a potato in a sack.
Shadowlord wrote: If you want to win consistently without having to run and hide, then pounce out of the shadows and hit once, then run and hide again. I would try this feat combo: Improved Feint + Craven + Staggering Strike = You Win and you don’t have to be stealthy to do it, just have a high Bluff. Don't need Improved Feint- Persistant Blade lets me FULL Attack with SA. Improved Feint only lets me attack once. As for pouncing out of the shadows- I'd hit twice- (took Two Weapon Pounce, two weapon rend). I could take Improved Feint earlier and retrain it out, since I have to wait for Major Magic.
Shadowlord wrote:
Craven (Champions of Ruin)= add your lvl in damage to your SA. -2 will saves against fear.
One of the few books I don't have. So hard to get 3.5 material now. Know where you can find them still? I collect them. Could you post the feat in it's entirety?
Shadowlord wrote:
Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer) = When you get SA your opponent has to make a Fort save vs. Damage done or be staggered (only one move or one standard action in that round but not both). If he moves you get AoO and if he attacks, so what, your attack does more damage so you will win in a battle of attrition.
OMG- completely forgot about that. Going in. Thanks. Not sure about winning all the time (he has a trick where if he hits me 2x he gets a free trip attempt) but I'll be HEAPS more of a toss up.
Cheers.
Ardenup wrote: Don't need Improved Feint- Persistant Blade lets me FULL Attack with SA. Improved Feint only lets me attack once. As for pouncing out of the shadows- I'd hit twice- (took Two Weapon Pounce, two weapon rend). I could take Improved Feint earlier and retrain it out, since I have to wait for Major Magic. Even if you are hitting twice when coming out of the shadows only the first attack would add SA. You are better off with flanking if you can get it, I mentioned the Feinting in case the magic didn’t work (you had already cast your limit that day) or before you get that ability.
Ardenup wrote: One of the few books I don't have. So hard to get 3.5 material now. Know where you can find them still? I collect them. Could you post the feat in it's entirety? I still get 3.5 books from the gamming store that I shop at, anything they don't have you can special order and they keep an eye out until they get it, other than that I would try EBay or Amazon. Unfortunately, I cannot post the feat in its entirety because I don't have access to any of my books right now and won't for some time. I am sure you could find a full description online if you were diligent. Google Craven + Champions of Ruin + description or something like that, should turn up something.
I can give you the highlights.
Prerequisites: NONE
Benifit: When you deal SA damage you add bonus damage equal to your lvl to the damage.
Drawback: -2 penalty on saves against fear.
Ardenup wrote: OMG- completely forgot about that. Going in. Thanks. Not sure about winning all the time (he has a trick where if he hits me 2x he gets a free trip attempt) but I'll be HEAPS more of a toss up. Glad I could be of assistance. If you get tripped I believe you can still attack from the ground; if so you could stagger him and then use your move action to get up after he is staggered, I don’t think he would get an AoO while he is staggered. Magic items and certain poisons could be a huge factor in this feud as well depending on how much money you are willing to devote to it.
Incidentally, I keep reading this thread title as "Brother Freud". That probably says something about how my mind works ... on many levels. Would that be a meta-Freudian slip?
If the thread were about trying to kill his father it would be a perfect fit. Alas he is only trying to dominate his brother. Although I am sure Freud would have something to say about that too.
Cheers Shadow lord- yeah it's a hook. We'll just as often fight each other as the enemies- DM actually has a couple of side quest ideas on it. Sorta a Wolverine/Sabertooth fued but without actually wanting to kill each other (at least on one side)
Why wouldn't Two weapon pounce get SA? AFB ATM but does it specifically say only tje first attack gets SA outta the shadows?
Cheers.
PS- Found Craven at Candlekeep.com -site that lists EVERY FR feat, for those who don't know.:)
Ardenup wrote: Why wouldn't Two weapon pounce get SA? AFB ATM but does it specifically say only tje first attack gets SA outta the shadows? I am not sure what you mean by AFB or ATM?
I don't have my books right now so I can’t look at exactly the way two-weapon pounce is worded, but if it is like other forms of pounce, all it means is that after a move action, or some such, you still get more than one attack. (One with your primary hand and an additional with your off hand) The attacks do not happen at exactly the same time though, it is still two attacks and you swing first with your primary hand then with your off hand. If you attack from Stealth it is counted as being the same as attacking from the invisibility spell. So for the first attack your opponent would lose their Dex bonus to AC, which would give you SA. For the second attack however, you have already become plainly visible and therefore your opponent is now able to defend against this off hand attack (IE: He now has his Dex bonus to AC) and if you hit you will not get SA.
Quote: PS- Found Craven at Candlekeep.com -site that lists EVERY FR feat, for those who don't know.:) I was unaware of that. Thank you it is a good reference.
I actually managed to find an online description of Two Weapon Pounce. I don’t think you would get any attack with SA damage if you used this feat. I say that because you get to attack with both weapons only after a charge. Stealth cannot be used during a Charge, so you would leave stealth the moment you begin your charge which would give your opponent time to see you and react thereby negating your SA.
Agreed. Took TWP because it allowed me to apply Doubleslice and TW rend damage to the attack. I'll get SA as long as I charge to flank or use 'Persistant Blade'. Also must point out obviously I'll be bugging the party mage for a wand or broach of 'persistant blade' early on. Took minor magic 'silent portal' and major magic mostly because they matched the flavor/style to go with the whole 'stealth killer' thing.
Cheers.
You will also be able to get SA if you charge a flat-footed enemy, for instance if your initiative is higher than your brothers and you Charge + TWP on the first attack of combat.
Looks like a solid build. You might also want to bug the party mage about a wand of Invisibility and Improved Invisibility when high enough lvl. It would add a few tricks to your arsenal. I don't know what gear you have but there are a few things that would up your SA damage as well if you are interested:
IIRC, The Precise Strike weapon enchantment from Complete Adventurer and revised in Magic Item Compendium adds extra d6s to your SA.
Gauntlets of Murder from the Drow of the Underdark are a really good buy. IIRC, if you ever get Death Attack they would up the DC by 1 and they also add a +1 profane damage to your attack damage roll. But the really nasty bit that applies to your build is that you re-roll all ones when rolling SA.
Since you are only getting half as many SA dice as a straight Rogue these might be a decent way of boosting the punch you are packing with your SA damage.
Shadowlord wrote:
Looks like a solid build. You might also want to bug the party mage about a wand of Invisibility and Improved Invisibility when high enough lvl. It would add a few tricks to your arsenal. I don't know what gear you have but there are a few things that would up your SA damage as well if you are interested:
IIRC, The Precise Strike weapon enchantment from Complete Adventurer and revised in Magic Item Compendium adds extra d6s to your SA.
Gauntlets of Murder from the Drow of the Underdark are a really good buy. IIRC, if you ever get Death Attack they would up the DC by 1 and they also add a +1 profane damage to your attack damage roll. But the really nasty bit that applies to your build is that you re-roll all ones when rolling SA.
Since you are only getting half as many SA dice as a straight Rogue these might be a decent way of boosting the punch you are packing with your SA damage.
I like it. We are starting at level 1. But we had the builds fleshed out early for direction. Definately like the gear. will look for/have it made.
Problem: I wanna get Craven into the build but can't really see what I'd be happy to give up? Wpn Spl is the only thing that sticks out since I'd like to take craven early. Cant give up Vexing Flanker as the build is based around flanking for damage. Improved Buckler defence is also untouchable as I need the AC. Stand still is a maybe as I'm not sure how effective this will be- But I think I need it as later when I get craven at level 9 this will allow me to pin a enemy down. Use a staggering strike to limit to a move or attack action. If move use standstill to hold in place, if attack then Rolibar's give AOO. Without stand still I'd lose heaps of damage potential as my move would lose a full attack. Re:psoted Below with Staggering strike and Craven added. Lost Improved Crit (will need Keen shortswords) and wpn spl.
Feats/Rogue Talents
1Rog1 Vexing Flanker, Improved Buckler Defence, Combat Reflexes, Skill Fcs: Perception
2Ftr1 Stand Still
3Rog2 Evasion, Rogue Talent-Wpn Fcs: Scimitar, TWF
4Ftr2 Bravery, Oversize TWF
5Rog3 SA 2d6, Trap Sense +1, Doubleslice
6Ftr3 Armor Training 1
7Rog4 Uncanny Dodge, Two Weapon Pounce, Rogue Talent-Combat Trick-ITWF
8Ftr4 Weapon Specialization or Craven
9Rog5 SA 3d6, Staggering Strike
10Ftr5 Weapon Training 1
11Rog6 Trap Sense +2, Critical Focus, Rogue Talent-Minor Magic (Silent Portal)
12Ftr6 Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt,
13Rog7 SA 4d6, Two Weapon Rend
14Ftr7 Armor Training 2
15Rog8 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent-Major Magic (Persistant Blade), Rolibar’s Gambit
16Ftr8 Deft Opportunist
17Rog9 SA 5d6, Martial Stance: Assassin’s Stance
18Ftr9 Weapon Training 2
19Rog10 Blinding Critical, Rogue Talent-Greater Weapon Focus: Scimitar
20Ftr10 Armor Specialisation
Still looks good though. Just wish Wpn spl was still in there. What about taking out Vexing Flanker? is it worth the extra +2 to attack given the Higher (at later levels) BAB and weapon training. Maybe take it at ftr 1 instead of stand still (take at rogue 1) when the bonus is bigger and retrain out at say Ftr 4 (when I take craven and my BAB is +7 -only 1 less than a straight fighter)?
That could work? I REALLY hate missing. and losing vexing flanker (effectively +2 off 5 attacks) for Wpn spl (effectively +2 damage on 5 attacks seems maybe not worth it if I'm lowering chances of a hit (especially when a miss also means no SA for the missed attack either).
Say if you didn't take it and all attacks hit.
5hits x 7d6SA = 5x 21= 105 (assumming you roll 3's) extra damage.
That doesn't count Craven and weapon damage
If you swap it for Wpl spl and all attacks hit
5hits x 7d6 +10(5x 2dam for spl) = 115.
Output is greater by about 1/10 but if you miss even 1 attack you'll lose 21SA damage and 2pts for spl.
Lower iterative attacks don't hit as often so Is the 1/10 extra damage worth losing +2 to EVERY attack?
Cheers.
Honestly with Craven and a few of those other magic items I pointed out I wouldn't worry too much about damage output. I would keep vexing flanker and try to worry about hitting more often. You have to remember, Craven is giving you a bonus equal to your lvl on EVERY attack that qualifies for SA. So let’s say you are getting 5 attacks at lvl 20. You flank your opponent and hit all 5 times. You are going to get Weapon Damage + SA damage + 100 points of Craven damage for your attack. That is going to be a LOT of hit point lost in one round. I won't say the extra damage wouldn't help, but I don't think you will need it especially if you stack that with Staggering Strike. Plus with you doing 20 points per attack with craven all you have to do is make up 30 and your opponent is going to have to Fort Save vs. DIE.
Recent threads in General Discussion
|
