OK, so I hear there is going to be a Templar Class, and it has been hinted at that there will be a 20 Level Base Blackguard class as well. The Templar, for those who haven't heard, is the catch-all Holy Warrior for the other alignments, so in theory we will have 3 full classes - Paladin, Blackguard-esque, and Templar. My question is, what resource are these two other Holy Warriors supposed to come out in ? If I'm not mistaken the 6 new Base classes in the Advanced Player's Guide have already been established. So, any news where and when these classes are to show up ?
The Templar and AntiPaladin will be in the same book, the Advanced Players Guide. They are not, to my understanding, new classes but are more like alternate class features.
I wonder if there will be any playtesting on the Templar and Anti-Paladin
There's also an Anti-Paladin class in the upcoming 'Paths of Power' supplement from 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming. It definitely captures the idea of a champion of Chaotic Evil in the same way that a Paladin is a champion of Lawful Good. They are not fallen Paladins in the way that a Blackguard is, nor are they conventional villians - these are zealous servants of Evil, dedicated to bringing down order and spreading destruction.
As for the Templar... honestly, I understand a lot of players want some of the Paladin perks or the role of a church knight without being confined to LG, but to me, that's one of the most important features of the Paladin class - that they are held to a strict moral code which is the foundation of their special abilities. Having other alignments doing the same really undercuts that, too me. I like the idea of Paladins being empowered by being morally restricted - why should a Chaotic Good character get the same bonus?
I guess the role of a Templar is being a cleric that's traded some of their divine spellcasting ability for battle prowess, and I suppose that makes sense. It's the sort of thing that /could/ be handled as a PrC - for a fighter who takes a couple levels of cleric, or vice versa - but I am curious to see what Pathfinder comes up with.
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As for the Templar... honestly, I understand a lot of players want some of the Paladin perks or the role of a church knight without being confined to LG, but to me, that's one of the most important features of the Paladin class - that they are held to a strict moral code which is the foundation of their special abilities. Having other alignments doing the same really undercuts that, too me. I like the idea of Paladins being empowered by being morally restricted - why should a Chaotic Good character get the same bonus?
Why shouldn't they?
Why shouldn't they?
As for the Templar... honestly, I understand a lot of players want some of the Paladin perks or the role of a church knight without being confined to LG, but to me, that's one of the most important features of the Paladin class - that they are held to a strict moral code which is the foundation of their special abilities. Having other alignments doing the same really undercuts that, too me. I like the idea of Paladins being empowered by being morally restricted - why should a Chaotic Good character get the same bonus?
Because Chaotic Good characters aren't bound to work within the law whenever possible. Because they're free to ignore conventional and society norms. Because as long as they can come up with a justification as to how what they do is for a good cause, they can use any variety of underhanded methods - stealing from "bad guys", framing known villians for various crimes they actually didn't do, taking advantage of an opponent.
I believe that a character who morally can't and won't do any of those things should be compensated for following a rigid path of goodness. It's more challenging to play a Lawful Good character, especially one who has chosen to be a champion of light and justice - a Paladin.
The Paladin restriction has nothing to do with his Alignment. It's code is the restriction, so should be with other aligments. This includes the Evil one u guys like so much... Blerg.
The Paladin restriction has nothing to do with his Alignment. It's code is the restriction, so should be with other aligments. This includes the Evil one u guys like so much... Blerg.
And if you have a Lawful Good ethos to the code, wouldn't that in turn require an effectively LG alignment?
Not really. It would make it easir for you to follow the code, but a Neutral Character would do it too, with ease.
A Chaotic character is just as restrictive as a Lawful one, you might want to remember that.
I have to say, I never understood why Lawful Good churches had Clerics and Paladins and everyone else just had Clerics. Yes, there is the Archetype of the heroic Knight, but I think its unreasonable to assume no other church has them. Originally, Clerics were the Holy Wariors of thier churches, with lay priests not really played. Personally, I'd either prefer to drop the Paladin altogether and just use Clerics as the Holy Warriors and " Cloistered Clerics " or Priests from Tome of Secrets to be the Lay-type, " white mage " priests. OR, Every Cleric is like the Priest and a generic Holy Warrior for each church and the Lawful Good ones just named " Paladins ". YMMV.
The Oracle name fits a bit better now,
why?
Why shouldn't they?
Because chaos is different from law, otherwise there wouldn't be a need to have them as seperate alignments. If a class is not only resticed to chaotic characters, but focused on it, the abilities bestowed should be different from a law-focused class.
My biggest worry is that paizo might do the same thing everyone does when they try an anti-paladin (or paladins of other alignements), and that's make them paladins, but with the good/evil/law/chaos descriptors reversed (ala Unearthed Arcana). A class depicting the "Epitome" of evil isn't going to just be a paladin but inversed, and neither should chaos (or even a paladin focused entirely on law) should.
Plus, it also depends on your outlook as well. A holy knight is a common conceapt in many fantasy stories. Not just a conceapt, often in fantasy stories (typically ones for younger auidences) and often in games, the "knight devoted to good" is seen quite alot, but it's not always an evil knight they fight against. Sometimes is a corrupt sorcerer or a vile dragon.
My own idea of "The Epitome of Evil" would probably be radically different from most here (and I doubt mines is the only one seen that way). Personally, I think my evil-base class would work something like a warlock. I can see a good character saying to a god "I want the power to fight evil", and the good god saying "Alright, theres some weapons and armour, train yourself to fight and I'll aid you, but you will need to will to courage to fight them yourself before I will aid." On the other hand, I can see an evil character going to an evil god and saying "I want the power to kill those goody-two-shoes" and the evil god saying "Alright, just sign here in blood and you'll get the power to make people explode, how does that sound?"
Although augury and speaking in tongues did seem to fit the theme a bit ....
OK
I buy that
A Chaotic character is just as restrictive as a Lawful one
How, precisely?
Zo
I'd wonder that myself. Unless we're talking Slaads here, I'd assume that a chaotic character isn't bound to act randomly, and might even act fairly 'lawful' for a while -- until something came up that they disagreed with, whereupon they'd take their own path.A Chaotic character is just as restrictive as a Lawful oneHow, precisely?
Zo
That would be a Neutral character, not a Chaotic one.
And if you have a Lawful Good ethos to the code, wouldn't that in turn require an effectively LG alignment?
There are other types of ethos aside from Lawful Good. A religion could prise individuality and freedom more that Law, seeing law as a tool to keep people under control of others, for example. This religion could easily have a "Paladin" who's dedicated to fighting tyranny by spreading the word of Freedom. As long as there's a "Code" within which the Paladin works, I don't think it's necessary for it to be Lawful.
I like the way they are going to be setting it up. A Paladin and its antithesis, the Anti-Paladin. Then all others can use the Templar. Makes sense but not over crowded with a "paladin" of every alignment
That would be a Neutral character, not a Chaotic one.I'd wonder that myself. Unless we're talking Slaads here, I'd assume that a chaotic character isn't bound to act randomly, and might even act fairly 'lawful' for a while -- until something came up that they disagreed with, whereupon they'd take their own path.A Chaotic character is just as restrictive as a Lawful oneHow, precisely?
Zo
Zurai, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here.
Chaotic characters aren't necessarily obligated to oppose authority, and they can abide by contracts and verbal agreements without violating their alignments. I think the key is more in the caveat 'until something came up that they disagreed with,' at which point a lawful character would be obligated (within reason) to submit to authority. A chaotic character, on the other hand, would say 'screw that' and book it. A chaotic character would also not mind circumventing laws for their own gain (such as smuggling or theft). Neutral is a bit fuzzy in this regard, but I think it means a relative ambivalence towards ruling powers. You follow the laws, and probably wouldn't intentionally flout the laws without a deeper reason than profit.
But then, that's just my take on it, and I don't want to threadjack too much.
//Back on topic, I'm looking forward to the Blackguard (which I assume is LE) and Templar classes. IMO, the Blackguard would likely be an inverted paladin, with the same code (albeit, obviously, rewritten for the purpose of evil) and similar abilities (though possibly less team-oriented). The Templar, on the other hand, I see being a domain user. Perhaps similar to the pally, but with spell lists more restricted to the domain(s) he or she chooses? It would make the class more specific to the deity, and allow for more specialized class options.
Templar of Fire? That just sounds badass.
A blackguard base class is just what I was waiting for. I am not that into paladins with other alignments than LG, but for those who want to play one...
I don't really care for such a class, although I think it's kind of just to have gods of other alignments have their martial champions as well.
Really anxiously about the Anti-Paladin,
David
I am thinking the anti-paladin will be CE an not LE. If they indeed keep the name,anti-paladin, i think it will be a hail bringer of death, the lord of corruption and slaughter. Some one who wants to watch the world burn and bring pain and hate to everything that lives
The name blackgaurd brings to mind an unholy knight, an evil man who has a code of honor. The name anti-paladin seems more a hail bringer of death, destruction and pain. Not so much a man with a code as more a man who wants everything to be a bloody ruin of what it was
I could be wrong
I am thinking the anti-paladin will be CE an not LE. If they indeed keep the name,anti-paladin, i think it will be a hail bringer of death, the lord of corruption and slaughter. Some one who wants to watch the world burn and bring pain and hate to everything that lives
The name blackgaurd brings to mind an unholy knight, an evil man who has a code of honor. The name anti-paladin seems more a hail bringer of death, destruction and pain. Not so much a man with a code as more a man who wants everything to be a bloody ruin of what it was
I could be wrong
That's the idea behind the Anti-Paladin in 'Paths of Power', actually. A CE harbinger of annihilation and despair in the service of Evil.
Ya know I am not to keen on the ideal of non-LG paladins myself. However, the templer could well fill the role of blackgaurd as it seems like it will be a knight, with a code and orders. So I am ok with a broad holy order of knights, they could be anything from LN tO N, I am unsure of CN or CG "Knights" but we'll see .The anti-paladin seems less a blackgaurd and more like I said before the bringer of ruin, death and sorrow.
The one thing I ask is they they are not just paladins with smite good, and such. I want them to have powers the paladins does not. Not just the same ones with the names filed off or reversed. I want them replaced with something more fitting not just renamed
In 3.5 I had a fighter/cleric palladin style character who had the variant cleric levels where you gain smite instead of turning, and that made them better then a pally given 2 rounds to buff. Pathfinder has changed that concept a little, but still doable, so if you wanted a pally of a non LG god, then fighter/cleric is still a doable option without waiting on the templar. Be interesting to see what they actually do with it though