| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hello everyone,
I'm glad to say Pathfinder has solved basically all my pet peeves with 3.5. The only exception to this being Antimagic Field, which is largely unchanged. It's still horribly vague and potentially overpowered in some encounters/adventures.
Even 3.5 designers like Jesse Decker dislike the spell.
My questions:
1) Do (su) abilities work inside Antimagic Field if they are not targeted (i.e. regeneration, damage resistance, etc...)?
--> I ask this because the description mentions that the space is impervious to "to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities". In other words, they cannot enter or penetrate the field and the area inside it. The next sentence says that magic items and spells do not work inside the area, but supernatural abilities are not mentioned (neither are spell-like for that matter, but I guess one could argue that "spells" cover them).
The next paragraph talks about the field suppressing spells *and* magical effects. Magical effects include (su) abilities, as defined in the first paragraph, but spells are also magical effects and yet they are mentioned separately again for some reason. Magic items are not mentioned this time.
Later on in the description, when elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are discussed, the description says: "These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field." This implies that there are situations when they are not nullified, but there's no further explanation.
2)
If Antimagic Field is *impervious* to magical effects, does it block line of effect?
3)
When the following from the description happens:
"Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field."
how do (su) abilities like regeneration work? Damage reduction? Can it cast spells outside the field? On itself?
4)
Can you kill a regenerating creature with normal damage when inside Antimagic Field? If it doesn't have regeneration inside, it should die normally, right?
5)
What happens to bonus hit points and spells granted by stat enhancing items when the items stop working? Max HPs are reduced (?), but do you lose current hit points too? Do you get both back when you exit the field? Are lost bonus spells determined randomly? Do you get them back when you exit the field or do you have to prepare them again? Do you need rest before preparing them again?
6)
How are attack and damage bonuses calculated when attacking in or out of Antimagic Filed with melee or ranged attacks? How overlapping bonuses of magical arrows and bows work in similar situations?
7)
Isn't the spell too powerful for a 6th level spell, especially as it cannot be removed and can only be blocked with a few wall spells (even disjunction is hardly certain)? Also, there is no other spell that can take away innate (su) abilities of a creature. It might sometimes be difficult to trap a creature in an Antimagic Field, but it gets no saving throw either. Everything magical is taken away automatically and most creatures turn into hit point piñatas for melee when that happens.
In my opinion, Antimagic Field creates very anti-climactic fights in party vs. a single supernatural baddie, especially if the antagonist is a spellcaster. I dislike that a single spell reduces these encounters to "how do I work around AMF tactics" every single time. When I look at main encounters in two campaigns I've run for 3.5 (Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and The City of Spider Queen), almost all key encounters and/or areas in these campaigns are changed drastically when Antimagic Field is introduced.
In the olden days when magic was more powerful than melee in general, I could see Antimagic Field being necessary. However, shouldn't Pathfinder revise or at least clarify this one trump card for all things even remotely magical? After all, many other magical absolutes were toned down (several immunity granting spells, save or die -effects, etc.). I hope Antimagic Field gets clarified and possibly a reduction in power.
We'll see what the Pathfinder Bestiary lists Flight as, but in 3.5 Flight was Ex or Su. And if you rule that winged flight was Extraordinary and non winged flight (Ghost, Nightmare, Yeth Hound) was Supernatural, then you have an interesting situation when two beholders looks at each other.
READ: Does an Allip drop to the ground if it enters an antimagic field?
Do (su) abilities work inside Antimagic Field if they are not targeted (i.e. regeneration, damage resistance, etc...)?
No supernatural ability, spell-like ability, or spell works in an area of antimagic but extraordinary abilities still work.
If Antimagic Field is *impervious* to magical effects, does it block line of effect?
No. Antimagic does not dispel magic; it suppresses it. Once a magic effect is no longer affected by the antimagic, the antimagic fades; the centre of the effect moves away, and so on, the magic returns. Therefore, a magic missile fired at a target on the other side of an antimagic field would be struck, though the missile would temporarily fade while travelling through the field. (Assuming the caster and the target were both out of the field)
When the following from the description happens:
"Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field."
how do (su) abilities like regeneration work? Damage reduction? Can it cast spells outside the field? On itself?
Assuming the creature can cast the spell’s center outside the field it would work. A spell’s components would be a good indicator of the ability to cast, Verbal requires the caster to have his mouth outside the field, Somatic requires the caster to have his hands outside the field, and material components also would have to be outside the field.
Damage the creature takes to parts in the field are not subject to DR or regeneration, damage to parts of the creature outside the field retain these benefits.Can you kill a regenerating creature with normal damage when inside Antimagic Field? If it doesn't have regeneration inside, it should die normally, right?
No supernatural ability, spell-like ability, or spell works in an area of antimagic but extraordinary abilities still work. If the regeneration is anything but Regeneration (ex), then the creature can die normally.
What happens to bonus hit points and spells granted by stat enhancing items when the items stop working? Max HPs are reduced (?), but do you lose current hit points too? Do you get both back when you exit the field? Are lost bonus spells determined randomly? Do you get them back when you exit the field or do you have to prepare them again? Do you need rest before preparing them again?
Magic items with continuous effects do not function in the area of an antimagic effect, but their effects are not cancelled, so the contents of a bag of holding are unavailable, but neither spill out nor disappear forever. Making a knowledge check in an antimagic field would deny a character his bonus from a Headband of Intellect, but he would not loose any prepared spells.
How are attack and damage bonuses calculated when attacking in or out of Antimagic Field with melee or ranged attacks? How overlapping bonuses of magical arrows and bows work in similar situations?
If an arrow strike the target in the field, it is a non-magical arrow. If it was fired from outside of the field, it was a magic arrow; therefore the example arrow may be +3 to hit and +0 to damage. Alternately an arrow may be fired from within the field and strike a target outside, this example arrow may be +0 to hit and +3 damage.
Isn't the spell too powerful for a 6th level spell, especially as it cannot be removed and can only be blocked with a few wall spells (even disjunction is hardly certain)? Also, there is no other spell that can take away innate (su) abilities of a creature. It might sometimes be difficult to trap a creature in an Antimagic Field, but it gets no saving throw either. Everything magical is taken away automatically and most creatures turn into hit point piñatas for melee when that happens.
Yes.
This brings a strange question to mind. If I use something like a Ray effect and my target is behind one of those (not inside) I don't think the ray would pass the AMF, if it did it would be REALLY weird. the magic dies inside of it, and comes to life once again later, that's just plain odd. Am I right.
This brings a strange question to mind. If I use something like a Ray effect and my target is behind one of those (not inside) I don't think the ray would pass the AMF, if it did it would be REALLY weird. the magic dies inside of it, and comes to life once again later, that's just plain odd. Am I right.
Yes, my reading of the spell is that it would be unable to penetrate the field, and therefore would be ineffective. I would say that Rays and other straightforward attacks would fail to work, Magic Missile might be a small exception, the spell only requires line of sight, not effect, if you can target the person it works. In this case, the Magic Missile would move around the field (I have always visualized magic missile as almost erratic in it's flight path so it wouldn't be all that different)...
That is all my personal opinion, another option might be that the spell stops at the field, but must wait for the field to pass before continuing. This would mean that a ray would stop at the field, and when the field was no longer affecting where the spell stopped it would continue the way it was going before hitting the AMF (watch out for that one). In that particular case it could have an interesting effect on magic missile, but I won't go into that.
Isn't the spell too powerful for a 6th level spell, especially as it cannot be removed and can only be blocked with a few wall spells (even disjunction is hardly certain)? Also, there is no other spell that can take away innate (su) abilities of a creature. It might sometimes be difficult to trap a creature in an Antimagic Field, but it gets no saving throw either. Everything magical is taken away automatically and most creatures turn into hit point piñatas for melee when that happens.Yes.
As for AMF being overpowered, I wouldn't really say so, after all, you must remember that it is a Personal spell, and only covers a 10 ft. radius. This would mean the spellcaster (who is obviously powerful enough to have 6th level spells) is now without said power. Many creatures with with supernatural abilities are still quite powerful without them, especially when facing a half-BAB creature with no particular abilities to speak of.
Also, one more note, which doesn't really apply to Pathfinder (as they aren't OGL compatible) but a Beholder's ability to fly is actually an Extraordinary ability, at least according to the ecology I read. They float by using a Gas filled Bladder, I don't claim to know the deep intricacies, but needless to say, they don't cancel out their own ability to move...
Thanks for the answers Darrien. Are these your personal interpretations, or are you quoting an FAQ or do you base your answers on some previous discussion? You sound awfully like Sage answering my questions. ;)
As for AMF being overpowered, I wouldn't really say so, after all, you must remember that it is a Personal spell, and only covers a 10 ft. radius. This would mean the spellcaster (who is obviously powerful enough to have 6th level spells) is now without said power. Many creatures with with supernatural abilities are still quite powerful without them, especially when facing a half-BAB creature with no particular abilities to speak of.
But they are usually facing the whole party huddling inside the AMF with the caster in the middle. With Use Magic Device, the caster might not be the party wizard in any case, or the caster might share it with familiar and now you got a double threat.
Unless the opponent has (ex) flight ability and (ex) ranged attack, or is a bad ass in melee, the combat is usually turned into a game of "trap the dude in AMF and gang up on him until dead". This works against most undead, several outsiders, monsters like mind flayers, etc...
I really don't like how this one spell becomes a center point for tactics for many fights for both players and the DM. No single spell should be that important. :(
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But they are usually facing the whole party huddling inside the AMF with the caster in the middle. With Use Magic Device, the caster might not be the party wizard in any case, or the caster might share it with familiar and now you got a double threat.Unless the opponent has (ex) flight ability and (ex) ranged attack, or is a bad ass in melee, the combat is usually turned into a game of "trap the dude in AMF and gang up on him until dead". This works against most undead, several outsiders, monsters like mind flayers, etc...
I really don't like how this one spell becomes a center point for tactics for many fights for both players and the DM. No single spell should be that important. :(
But its not, AMF is available mainly to wizards, since it really isn't good enough for a sorc. to take as one of their few spells, it also only works on a few specific items; scrolls, staffs, and permanent items. Use magic device on a scroll that high a level is very tough to cast on a scroll, and provokes from most creatures. There are only 2 really terrifying things you will see with AMF that I really think effect the game; the really big dragon who uses it so that he is immune to all your cool stuff(especially since in a fight with no magic he almost always wins), and a very specific class/feat/domain build that exists in Forgotten Realms. This combination is broken and does require a much higher level character but makes for a nigh unstoppable killing machine. A cleric of Mystra with the initiate of Mystra feat can cast in an antimagic fields and can also cast antimagic field.
And as for trapping a creature in one and then beating him up that way, remember that its only 10ft wide. This means the creature can move away, and in almost all the cases with the creatures above or even the silly wizards, buffs turn on after they move and then they leave and make a new plan. Remember monsters are not that dumb and will use it to their advantage as well. You cast AMF and take away some of my abilities. I back out and fly away... next time you do it I am ready for it (and readied an action or contingency spell worded that if you start casting AMF I do X). I fly away and drop rocks on your whole party(since you clustered up to perform this trick. Also not that most non-NPC monsters don't rely as heavily on gear and magic as PCs do. Most monsters that this can really stop are smart enough and ready enough to get away and come back later with a new plan.
Remember monsters are not that dumb and will use it to their advantage as well. You cast AMF and take away some of my abilities. I back out and fly away... next time you do it I am ready for it (and readied an action or contingency spell worded that if you start casting AMF I do X). I fly away and drop rocks on your whole party(since you clustered up to perform this trick. Also not that most non-NPC monsters don't rely as heavily on gear and magic as PCs do. Most monsters that this can really stop are smart enough and ready enough to get away and come back later with a new plan.
I know that there are workarounds, but that's just what they are: *workarounds* for a single 6th level spell. This is what I meant with a drastic change in tactics for both players and DM. No other single ability or spell in the game requires jumping through hoops so much. In some situations the hoops are easy to jump through, and you can prepare for them, but they are there nevertheless.
Maybe the problem is me and my players combined with ready-made campaigns. The adventure writers never seem to take AMF into account. :/
Thanks for your time everyone. I think I'll keep the AMF effects banned from my games in Pathfinder too. (Except beholders, 'cause they're my special spherical friends. ;)
I agree with Darrien except as pointed out by Benjamin Trefz.
Also keep in mind that PC spellcasters are almost helpless within an AMF.
In addition most melee PCs are realtively week within an AMF while most melee monsters are not.
Last successful use of AMF also requires the party to have skilled ranged combatants, which realy are not that common in my experience.
AMF is very useful as a defensive spell but is very limited by geographical features and terrain as an offensive weapon.
All in all I think it works well as intended and although potentially very powerful I have never thought of it as overpowered.
Also keep in mind that PC spellcasters are almost helpless within an AMF.
It nasty if you can put it in a ring of spell storing for your fighter friend though.
It nasty if you can put it in a ring of spell storing for your fighter friend though.
Also keep in mind that PC spellcasters are almost helpless within an AMF.
Maybe a wrestler with a ring of spell storing. Wizards have to hate that :)
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Hello everyone,
I'm glad to say Pathfinder has solved basically all my pet peeves with 3.5. The only exception to this being Antimagic Field, which is largely unchanged. It's still horribly vague and potentially overpowered in some encounters/adventures.
Even 3.5 designers like Jesse Decker dislike the spell.
My questions:
1) Do (su) abilities work inside Antimagic Field if they are not targeted (i.e. regeneration, damage resistance, etc...)?
--> I ask this because the description mentions that the space is impervious to "to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities". In other words, they cannot enter or penetrate the field and the area inside it. The next sentence says that magic items and spells do not work inside the area, but supernatural abilities are not mentioned (neither are spell-like for that matter, but I guess one could argue that "spells" cover them).
The next paragraph talks about the field suppressing spells *and* magical effects. Magical effects include (su) abilities, as defined in the first paragraph, but spells are also magical effects and yet they are mentioned separately again for some reason. Magic items are not mentioned this time.
Later on in the description, when elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are discussed, the description says: "These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field." This implies that there are situations when they are not nullified, but there's no further explanation.
See pg. 221 Players handbook.
Supernatural Abilities: These can’t be disrupted in combat and generally don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren’t subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don’t function in antimagic areas.As stated they do not function in antimagic area's (or in this case field.)
So no Smite Evil or Lay on Hands within the confines.
2)
If Antimagic Field is *impervious* to magical effects, does it block line of effect?
No statement of that in the description so .. no guess not in my opinion.
3)When the following from the description happens:
"Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field."
how do (su) abilities like regeneration work? Damage reduction? Can it cast spells outside the field? On itself?
...
As stated in pg 221 players handbook i'd say that a situation where the critter is half inside the field That'll be a no go. The spell prevents the functioning of spell within it's confines. (see 1st alinea in the spell description)
If he's the AMF caster he's enclosed in it. The area is a 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you. So a giant (10ft space critter) casting a AMF field, makes a pretty large antimagic field :-) )
Can a demi-lich fly, or, indeed, do anything at all if it's in an anti magic field?
I recently had a very messed up encounter due to a antimagic field spell.
A player summoned a Movanic Deva via summon monster VIII (and the arcane school prestige award “summoning specialization”).
He then proceeded to have the summoned Movanic Deva fly up to an enemy incorporeal spellcaster, who was half submerged in a wall (partial cover), and then have the angel use it’s antimagic field spell-like ability.
What do you think should happen in THAT scenario? Lol.
Summoned creatures 'wink out' when inside an AMF, and summoned creatures' spell effects end when the summoned creature disappears so I'd let the AMF stay for one round, which will hurt the hiding guy, then it goes down and the deva reappears.
What would the rest of you do? I'm not claiming to have the definitive answer.
Summoned creatures 'wink out' when inside an AMF, and summoned creatures' spell effects end when the summoned creature disappears so I'd let the AMF stay for one round, which will hurt the hiding guy, then it goes down and the deva reappears.
What would the rest of you do? I'm not claiming to have the definitive answer.
Actually that is sort of the right answer. summoned creatures normally get an SR check against an antimagic field spell, however, since the creature had to voluntarily lower it’s SR to cast the spell-like ability on itself in the first place, it gets no SR check and as soon as the antimagic field effect is on, it suppresses the summoned creature that it’s attached to and it disappears (effectively it dispels itself; the AMF effect will last longer than the summon monster VIII spell that brought it there).
Now, sadly, I didn’t realize that at the time as I was sick with the flu, but my buddies got me to GM anyhow. Not realizing that fact, I let the summoned creature remain, and the half of the incorporeal spellcaster that was exposed outside the wall became physical, with no magic functioning on him. The AMF emanation couldn’t penetrate the stone wall, so the lower half of the wizard remained incorporeal and inside the wall (per the description of the AMF spell, last line: “Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.”)
YIDM