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Ok, we came across this in our last pathfinder society game.
Character played:
fighter that used two hand crossbows.
Had Two handed fighting And Rapid Reload.
Two hand fighting: hand crossbows are light weapons, causing him to fire both at -2 to attack.
Rapid Reload: The hand crossbows can be reloaded as a free action.
As of now he's only first, but you can see where this is heading quickly. He will turn into a gattling gun at higher levels. Add some magic to that crossbow and we have a mini gun.
I couldn't find anywhere where it said it couldn't be done? The basic commen sense thought is, "how do you reload if both hands are holding crossbows?" Nothing in the rules it appears stops it.
anyone?
Description of the Hand Crossbow:
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty.
It requires two hands to load a hand crossbow, even with Rapid Reload.
I would suggest if you want to allow him this (and for the little damage that a hand crossbow does, and neat factor of the build I probably would) either making "repeating" hand crossbows, or check the magic items (iirc) there is a magical crossbow that has an auto reload feature.
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Description of the Hand Crossbow:
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty.It requires two hands to load a hand crossbow, even with Rapid Reload.
That's what I was thinking. Round One: Fire, fire, reload with free actions. End turn. Have to wait to fire and reload again in round Two. (And I'm being generous. Normally I only allow one free action per round. Thus, in my game, the PC would only have time to reload one bolt after firing.)
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I agree with Abraham, it's not the most incredibly powerful build you will ever see. He'll get no STR bonus on his attacks so he is pretty much limited to 1d4 plus any enhancement. I actually think the idea is rather nice in a slightly absurd but cool way, as it is trying to get the benefit of six-shooters in a D&D setting. I suspect the player has an image in mind and is running with it, rather than being an overwhelming munchkin build (which it doesn't sound like it is). I guess it is up to the DM how much of a killjoy he wants to be in enforcing the two-hands-to-reload-a-crossbow rule (which is logical, if bland). Ever see Hawk the Slayer and the mad gatling crossbow? This is much milder than that.
This build is not even possible. There is no way to hold two hand crossbows and be able to load them. One hand must be empty to load the hand crossbow in the remaining hand.
Round 1: Fire fire. Drop one crossbow as a free action. Load the remaining crossbow as a free action.
Round 2: Fire, drop crossbow as a free action, retrieve one crossbow as a move action and load it as a free action.
Round 3: Repeat round 2.
After combat: go back and retrieve the crossbow on the ground.
Or more intelligently:
Round 1: Fire fire. Drop one crossbow as a free action. Load the remaining crossbow as a free action.
Round 2: Fire, move, load the crossbow as a free action.
Round 3: Repeat round 2.
After combat: go back and retrieve the crossbow on the ground.
Assuming the DM never assigns a chance to damage the crossbows for being dropped allt he time.
So all he really gains by this is the ability to fire twice in the first round.
Note, if he wants to take a full round to load, he could try this:
Round 1: Fire fire.
Round 2: Drop one crossbow as a free action. Load remaining crossbow as a free action. Set down loaded crossbow as a move action. Pick up empty crossbow as a move action. Load it as a free action.
Round 3: Pick up loaded crossbow as a move action. Oops - now we can only fire one of them this round since it takes a full round action to fire both. Oh well, move somewhere.
Round 4 Fire fire.
Hmmm, 4 rounds, 4 shots. He was better off with the previous set where he got 4 rounds, 5 shots at least.
If you can reload as a free action, you can get as many shots off in that round as you get attacks from your BAB.
So it's more like:
1. Fire-Fire, drop as a free action, reload other crossbow and take the rest of your iteratives
2. Full attack with the crossbow you're holding, repeat until done
3. Retrieve crossbow
In other words, sole benefit is an additional attack in the first round of combat.
You'd need magical self-reloading crossbows...Or a pair of revolvers from Alkenstar.
++
In my campaign, there's a feat called "Thumb Reload" which allows gunslingers to one-handed reload their revolvers from their bandoleers and another feat called "Fill Chambers" which allows them to reload 2 extra bullets per hand per round when using rapid reload.
(FYI there are Dark Tower-style Gunslingers in my Campaign world)
In "Gladiator" there was a crossbow with 4 bows, all at 90 degrees from each other. The wielder just turned them 90 degrees to shoot the next bolt. Maybe he can use something like that.
Or get a repeating crossbow.
You'd need magical self-reloading crossbows...
While it doesn't look as John Woo, it might be better to just stick to the Rapid Shot and Quick Draw feats and use lots of daggers. (And, as an added bonus, you can apply your Strength bonus to them.)
Speaking of John Woo... wouldn't you be better off just playing a monk with shuriken + Point Blank Shot and Deadly Aim. Just flurry of blows off several shuriken at a minimum of 4 damage each within 30 feet before STR mod.
Thanks to the new pathfinder monk the flurry of blows is no worse than two-weapon fighting anyway and you can even spend a ki point to add in a extra attack.
I've actually got a monk I designed this way. He'll be doing a minimum of 8 points per shuriken he fires off thanks to his 18 STR.
To return to topic though... I agree you'd need pistols or repeating hand crossbows to really make this build work.
Still works alright in Pathfinder.
Fire-Fire, store Crossbow A, take your iteratives with Crossbow B then drop it, retrieve Crossbow A and take the rest of your attacks with it.
Next round, load Crossbow A, store it, pick up Crossbow B as a move action, load, fire, load, retrieve Crossbow A.
Alternating full attacks (with both crossbows) and standard attacks.
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Yeah, his set-up just won't work well, as others have posted, however, if he gets a set-up like This Guy, it would work... (though if you let him, you're nuts)
I'm curious... if you did house-rule repeating hand crossbows into the game, what would be the effect of enchanting them with "Quick Loading" enhancement found in the Magic Item Compendium?
On that subject, what would the effect be of enhancing any type of Repeating Crossbow with the Quick Loading enchantment?
Quick Loading only requires that it be put onto a crossbow. So, with that in mind perhaps you could effectively have 5 bolts prepared at any time and use 5 free actions to reload the clip.
In the case of two repeating hand crossbows, you'd spend a round loading both crossbows with 10 free actions manipulating the magic of the weapons.
You could then fire 5 bolts from each crossbow before needing to reload again.
I'm curious... if you did house-rule repeating hand crossbows into the game, what would be the effect of enchanting them with "Quick Loading" enhancement found in the Magic Item Compendium?
On that subject, what would the effect be of enhancing any type of Repeating Crossbow with the Quick Loading enchantment?
Quick Loading only requires that it be put onto a crossbow. So, with that in mind perhaps you could effectively have 5 bolts prepared at any time and use 5 free actions to reload the clip.
In the case of two repeating hand crossbows, you'd spend a round loading both crossbows with 10 free actions manipulating the magic of the weapons.
You could then fire 5 bolts from each crossbow before needing to reload again.
While this is fun to speculate about (like a lot of the munchin-powered builds that are being proposed) I think it fails the common sense test.
I always feel that the spirit of the rules should supercede cheesy builds anyday. Even if it isn't overly powerful, its just...cheesy.
But, it's a nice thing to try and play with...I just wouldn't allow it, and bonk the offending player with the almighty PFRPG Core Manual.
I'm curious... if you did house-rule repeating hand crossbows into the game, what would be the effect of enchanting them with "Quick Loading" enhancement found in the Magic Item Compendium?
On that subject, what would the effect be of enhancing any type of Repeating Crossbow with the Quick Loading enchantment?
Quick Loading only requires that it be put onto a crossbow. So, with that in mind perhaps you could effectively have 5 bolts prepared at any time and use 5 free actions to reload the clip.
In the case of two repeating hand crossbows, you'd spend a round loading both crossbows with 10 free actions manipulating the magic of the weapons.
You could then fire 5 bolts from each crossbow before needing to reload again.
While this is fun to speculate about (like a lot of the munchin-powered builds that are being proposed) I think it fails the common sense test.
I always feel that the spirit of the rules should supercede cheesy builds anyday. Even if it isn't overly powerful, its just...cheesy.
But, it's a nice thing to try and play with...I just wouldn't allow it, and bonk the offending player with the almighty PFRPG Core Manual.
You see, here you and I are on the opposite side of the fence. I feel, that as an exotic weapon, the hand crossbow and repeating crossbow should actually be effective weapons. So, on that note, these are my houserules.
Belt-clip (hand crossbow): This clip holds 10 hand-crossbow bolts, ready for reloading as a free action, and sits on one side of the belt (Meaning those who dual-wield hand crossbows will want to wear two, one for each side.)
Wrist-Clip(hand crossbow): This clip holds 5 hand-crossbow bolts on the wrist for reloading the opposite arm as a free action.
To refill any clip takes a full round action.
Repeater Clip (repeating crossbow): This is a clip that holds 5 bolts, and clicks into place in the slot above the firing chamber of a repeating crossbow, designed mechanically in...
I might have been unclear. I have no problem with the epeating crossbows, its the dual-wielding-and-I-want-to-reload-both-and-get-full-attacks-each-round thing that fails my common sense/ bonk with the book test.
I like your ideas about belt fed uber crossbows and specialised weapons.
Found an example of what I think a "real" Repeating Crossbow might look like.
This example would most likely be either a light or heavy variant.
I'm curious... if you did house-rule repeating hand crossbows into the game, what would be the effect of enchanting them with "Quick Loading" enhancement found in the Magic Item Compendium?
On that subject, what would the effect be of enhancing any type of Repeating Crossbow with the Quick Loading enchantment?
Quick Loading only requires that it be put onto a crossbow. So, with that in mind perhaps you could effectively have 5 bolts prepared at any time and use 5 free actions to reload the clip.
In the case of two repeating hand crossbows, you'd spend a round loading both crossbows with 10 free actions manipulating the magic of the weapons.
You could then fire 5 bolts from each crossbow before needing to reload again.
While this is fun to speculate about (like a lot of the munchin-powered builds that are being proposed) I think it fails the common sense test.
I always feel that the spirit of the rules should supercede cheesy builds anyday. Even if it isn't overly powerful, its just...cheesy.
But, it's a nice thing to try and play with...I just wouldn't allow it, and bonk the offending player with the almighty PFRPG Core Manual.
I was tossing it out for discussion. YOU feel it is cheesy. Fine. But Munchin... come-on!
In the case of light or heavy repeating crossbow, thanks to the link I found, I understand for sure that NO you would not be able to reload two of them.
For hand crossbows, it would all depend on the design of the proposed HOUSE-RULED hand repeating crossbows. The clips are gravity fed. How the mechanism for pulling back the string works is the question. And when you throw MAGIC into the mix, all bets are off anyway.
In the end, dual wielding hand crossbows is actually weaker damage wise than having a character set up to dual-wield throwing daggers. (No STR. Mod. to damage.) But you gain allot of fun flavor and maybe a little edge on distance.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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That's what I was thinking. Round One: Fire, fire, reload with free actions. End turn. Have to wait to fire and reload again in round Two. (And I'm being generous. Normally I only allow one free action per round. Thus, in my game, the PC would only have time to reload one bolt after firing.)Description of the Hand Crossbow:
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty.It requires two hands to load a hand crossbow, even with Rapid Reload.
He can't reload at all because he doesn't have a free hand. He's HOLDING the crossbows in those hands; to reload one, he'd have to drop (free action) or stow (move action) the other one, and he couldn't actually stow it because TWF requires a full attack action, so he has no move action left.
Now, if he were a glabrezu or some other creature with extra arms or a prehensile tail to do the reloading, I guess he could pull it off.
Rapid Reload just makes reloading a free action; it doesn't negate the need to have a free hand to fetch the ammo.
That's what I was thinking. Round One: Fire, fire, reload with free actions. End turn. Have to wait to fire and reload again in round Two. (And I'm being generous. Normally I only allow one free action per round. Thus, in my game, the PC would only have time to reload one bolt after firing.)Description of the Hand Crossbow:
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty.It requires two hands to load a hand crossbow, even with Rapid Reload.He can't reload at all because he doesn't have a free hand. He's HOLDING the crossbows in those hands; to reload one, he'd have to drop (free action) or stow (move action) the other one, and he couldn't actually stow it because TWF requires a full attack action, so he has no move action left.
Now, if he were a glabrezu or some other creature with extra arms or a prehensile tail to do the reloading, I guess he could pull it off.
Rapid Reload just makes reloading a free action; it doesn't negate the need to have a free hand to fetch the ammo.
My feeling too. (and where I feel the cheese comes in. Bending the game rules or the laws of common sense is part of the munchkinny thing, if the player is serious and not just "What if I did this...").
But, that's my opinion.
That's what I was thinking. Round One: Fire, fire, reload with free actions. End turn. Have to wait to fire and reload again in round Two. (And I'm being generous. Normally I only allow one free action per round. Thus, in my game, the PC would only have time to reload one bolt after firing.)Description of the Hand Crossbow:
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty.It requires two hands to load a hand crossbow, even with Rapid Reload.He can't reload at all because he doesn't have a free hand. He's HOLDING the crossbows in those hands; to reload one, he'd have to drop (free action) or stow (move action) the other one, and he couldn't actually stow it because TWF requires a full attack action, so he has no move action left.
Now, if he were a glabrezu or some other creature with extra arms or a prehensile tail to do the reloading, I guess he could pull it off.
Rapid Reload just makes reloading a free action; it doesn't negate the need to have a free hand to fetch the ammo.
My feeling too. (and where I feel the cheese comes in. Bending the game rules or the laws of common sense is part of the munchkinny thing, if the player is serious and not just "What if I did this...").
But, that's my opinion.
What I'm saying is not going by RAW anyway. Thus, any rules set out by RAW are not being bent. I'm talking about adding in house-rules to allow a player to make this less than optimal build work from a flavor standpoint.
I'm also talking about magic enhancements that do not go into full detail as to how they actually work on top of a weapon that already allows for rapid fire. Magic does not go by any "law of common sense". My basic thinking is that by adding Quick Loading to a Repeating Crossbow... you are effectively animating the bow to load itself. Thats my idea. You would still need to spend a round working the crossbow to fill the clips back up once you've emptied them. It'd take that much at least to set down/ swap/ manipulate levers/ whatever to make the magic put bolts back into the clips.
There is no rule for this yet.
So I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing against.
EDIT: Hopefully I've made my idea a little clearer.
It's not that big of deal...hand crossbows have low dmg, it would be easier to go with returning thrown weapons.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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It's not that big of deal...hand crossbows have low dmg, it would be easier to go with returning thrown weapons.
Those have the same problem, though, if you are meaning throwing more than two (super dagger specialist throwing 8 daggers a round or what have you) - not enough hands to catch them. They return to you, you catch two and the rest fall at your feet.
It's not that big of deal...hand crossbows have low dmg, it would be easier to go with returning thrown weapons.Those have the same problem, though, if you are meaning throwing more than two (super dagger specialist throwing 8 daggers a round or what have you) - not enough hands to catch them. They return to you, you catch two and the rest fall at your feet.
I think some folks have the idea that you can make multiple attacks in a round with just one returning weapon: throw, return, throw gain, return, and so on, up to your maximum iterative attacks.
Not true of course.
I also think some folks have the idea that if it takes you a whole round to throw 8 returning daggers, that all 8 won't reappear at the same instant next round. Their return should be spaced about as evenly as the spacing of the attacks that initially threw them.
This is also not true.
Per RAW, those returning weapons all return at exactly the same instant in time, right before your next turn, in which case, you can catch one per free hand and the rest fall to the ground at your feet.
As for me, I like the idea of spacing out the return to match the spacing of the original attacks. If someone actually had 10 returning daggers, a Haste spell, and a BAB of 16+, he could literally juggle those daggers, throwing all 10 this round and catching each pair as they return next round just in time to be thrown again, and again the next round - juggling them horizontally as they bounce off of and into the inner organs of his unlucky foe...
Hey, if we can make the magic to let them return, but it takes almost a full round, why not just let them take exactly a full round?
It's not that big of deal...hand crossbows have low dmg, it would be easier to go with returning thrown weapons.Those have the same problem, though, if you are meaning throwing more than two (super dagger specialist throwing 8 daggers a round or what have you) - not enough hands to catch them. They return to you, you catch two and the rest fall at your feet.I think some folks have the idea that you can make multiple attacks in a round with just one returning weapon: throw, return, throw gain, return, and so on, up to your maximum iterative attacks.
Not true of course.
I also think some folks have the idea that if it takes you a whole round to throw 8 returning daggers, that all 8 won't reappear at the same instant next round. Their return should be spaced about as evenly as the spacing of the attacks that initially threw them.
This is also not true.
Per RAW, those returning weapons all return at exactly the same instant in time, right before your next turn, in which case, you can catch one per free hand and the rest fall to the ground at your feet.
As for me, I like the idea of spacing out the return to match the spacing of the original attacks. If someone actually had 10 returning daggers, a Haste spell, and a BAB of 16+, he could literally juggle those daggers, throwing all 10 this round and catching each pair as they return next round just in time to be thrown again, and again the next round - juggling them horizontally as they bounce off of and into the inner organs of his unlucky foe...
Hey, if we can make the magic to let them return, but it takes almost a full round, why not just let them take exactly a full round?
One way to do such a build would include a Gauntlet of Infinite Blades from the Magic Item Compendium. That way, you don't care if you get the blades back as you can just produce more. They only last for 3 rounds however and the gauntlet takes a swift action to activate. You'd also carry allot of daggers and have one set of Returning daggers. You could then choose from all those options every round on what to throw. But it would be hard to keep up a steady 10 dagger rate of fire.
I personally would just stick with a higher strength and dexterity Human Monk build who uses shuriken. Because shuriken are ammo they only require a free action to draw. With the Monk's flurry of blows you can fire off a impressive amount of ammo without any real effort at all. Granted the weapon deals 2 points less damage than a dagger but at this point you are just using it as a vehicle to deliver strength damage to your enemy in rapid succession.
Found an example of what I think a "real" Repeating Crossbow might look like.
This example would most likely be either a light or heavy variant.
For repeating crossbows in action, take a peek at the John Wu, movie "Battle of Red-cliff"
I couldn't find anywhere where it said it couldn't be done? The basic commen sense thought is, "how do you reload if both hands are holding crossbows?" Nothing in the rules it appears stops it.
anyone?
Take a look at the description of the handcrossbow. It plainly states that it is reloaded by hand. You can fire one in each hand simultaneously, but you need two hands to load one.
If you want to allow a player to have such a character you will have to house rule it somehow. I suggest a spring action repeating handcrossbow or a nimble reload feat.
However, I would just tell the player to drop the off-hand croosbow after round 1 and continue to fire with a single handcrossbow or to have a lot of those suckers handy.
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I couldn't find anywhere where it said it couldn't be done? The basic commen sense thought is, "how do you reload if both hands are holding crossbows?" Nothing in the rules it appears stops it.
anyone?
Take a look at the description of the handcrossbow. It plainly states that it is reloaded by hand. You can fire one in each hand simultaneously, but you need two hands to load one.
If you want to allow a player to have such a character you will have to house rule it somehow. I suggest a spring action repeating handcrossbow or a nimble reload feat.
However, I would just tell the player to drop the off-hand croosbow after round 1 and continue to fire with a single handcrossbow or to have a lot of those suckers handy.
Think of it in matrix style. The guys pull out their pistols, empty the clips, toss them away then continue on with the next weapon. So, if you were really going to play this sort of character, you'd have a heavy crossbow, two hand crossbows, and possibly a few throwing knives for good measure.
Then you just walk into the room, and keep firing till the bad guys stop moving.
I would suggest if you want to allow him this (and for the little damage that a hand crossbow does, and neat factor of the build I probably would) either making "repeating" hand crossbows, or check the magic items (iirc) there is a magical crossbow that has an auto reload feature.
Yes, in 3.5 there is quick-loading enchancment that I would rule that is auto-reload.
I've actually already handled this in a houserule designed to make the exotic crossbows worth using. Since I posted it earlier in the thread I'm going to spoiler it here for you Grandfather, let me know what you think.
** spoiler omitted **...
Going to these lengths, I think it would be better just to hand the player a pair of revolvers!
Something similar to this was used in the Red Steel/Wild Coast setting for Mystara many years ago. I will look at this later today, as I might be wrong and they used real guns in that setting. Anyways, they wanted to recreate the Wild West feel in a fantasy setting with that, so it might be worth another look.
Stefan
Can I just say, I once used a similar character. I love the concept. The trick isn't to reload your crossbows quickly.. the trick is to have a lot of them available and loaded at hand.
Think about it this way, how many hand crossbows could you strap to your body. Add quick draw. Maybe add a houserule feat that you can keep crossbows loaded on your person for up to X hours without damaging the crossbow or risking harm to yourself.
if your dm wont let you stand behind cover stealthed for an hour loading a million accessible hand crossbows (easily 8!) without shooting yourself in the foot do the following to him/her. They deserve it.
// ***WARNING*** EXTREME CHEESE (and/or f~**ing cool.)
Quick draw and rapid reload1. Fire both crossbows
2. free - drop both
3. free - get one for main hand
4. free - reload one
5. continuing iterative - fire it
6. free drop it
7. free - get one for off hand
8. free - reload itetc etc
As many free actions as you want in a round? Eat your heart out, carry a dozen hand crossbows.
*Twitch*
In that case... couldn't you just "quick draw" one hand crossbow back and forth between your main and off hands?
It turns out that the Red Steel setting uses real wheellock pistols, not repeating hand crossbows - even if seem to recall something like that from somewhere...
Stefan
Lol, that was the flavor intended my friend.
I know it sounds a bit crazy, but I really meant that.
Just throw in a pair of Colt Peacemakers to spice up that game. Your players will be flabbergasted!
It reminds me of when I was considering to throw in a platoon of Wehrmacht infantry into the temple of elemental evil in stead of some of those dorky 0-lvl fighters.
Lol, that was the flavor intended my friend.I know it sounds a bit crazy, but I really meant that.
Just throw in a pair of Colt Peacemakers to spice up that game. Your players will be flabbergasted!
It reminds me of when I was considering to throw in a platoon of Wehrmacht infantry into the temple of elemental evil in stead of some of those dorky 0-lvl fighters.
It's an interesting idea, and one I actually wouldn't be opposed to if a player came to me and wanted to use a firearm to build his character concept. I did what I did with the hand crossbow and repeating crossbow though, because they are in the game, cost an exotic weapon proficiency feat (except rogues who get the hand crossbow for free, which should be a perk, not a weapon that's never used) and should be worth the feat.
(For the record yes, I've endeavored to make all exotic weapons worth the effort, people in my games actually take the whip or the sai or lajatang or boomerang or whatever)
I think anachronisms should be used carefully, but if rare enough are quite fun.
You might also consider energy pistols, though I think you should make them funktion more like magic.
All this and no one mentioned the CROSSBOW MASTERY feat out of the CotCT Player's Guide(pg. 10)?
CROSSBOW MASTERY
You can load crossbows with blinding speed and even fire them in melee with little fear of reprisal.
Prereq: Dex 15, Pointblank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot
Benefit: The time required fro you to reload any type of crossbow is reduced to a free action, regardless of the type of crossbow used. You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Reloading a crossbow for the type of crossbow you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: Fighter Bonus Feat, Ranger may select Crossbow Mastery in place of Manyshot at 6th level.
Assuming you would allow the "cheese" of a western gunslinger with hand crossbows. 6TH LEVEL HUMAN FIGHTER - GUNSLINGER
So, with all that in place 'Drawing(Stowing?)' and 'Reloading' are 'Free Actions'... up to the DM as to when the "cheese" starts to require hip-waders. (+4/+4/+1/+1?) Free Actions are unlimited within reason, that would be one crazy fast individual. As others have mentioned/hint to, DR would probably eat you alive eventually at only 1d4 dmg. (non-magic'd)
EDIT:
(Dragon Magazine 349 pg.22)
Prodd 20gp (crossbow that fires sling bullets)1d3/1d4 x2 80Ft. 4lb. (Bludgeoning)
Makes me think of a Rubberband Gun, or those silly guns the police in "The Flintstones" use to carry with the large rock and leather strap.
Free Actions are unlimited within reason, that would be one crazy fast individual.
Even with Crossbow Mastery the character still needs both hands to load a normal handcrossbow. For a character with inproved TWF that would require an unreasonable number of free actions to holster and unholster the handcrossbows.
As far as I can tell 5 drawings and 5 holsterings per round [and that assumes that you can stow a loaded crossbow without the bolt being knocked off].Unless one comes up with some weird contraption, with magic, henchmen carrying spares, or have a third arm, you cannot effectively use TWF with handcrossbows.