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The healing domain says:
At 6th level, all of your cure spells are treated as if they were empowered
And further it says:
increasing the amount of damage healed by half (+50%).
Now that seems to mean that the entire healing amount is increased. For example, if an 8th level cleric casts Cure Moderate Wounds and rolls 2d8 and gets 10, then addds +8 for his level for a total of 18 HP, do we add 50% to that and heal 27 HP?
I ask because the domain ability says it works like the Empower Spell feat which would only add 50% to the rolled amount, getting 15, then add the level, resulting in 23 HP healed.
By the wording, it seems that either interpretation is valid.
Have we had any previous clarification on this, or can we get some official clarification on it?
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Nice to see you again, it has been a while. Paizo official says that Empower only works on the rolled, random numbers, though the feat itself still says nothing about that. I also thought the Healing Domain seemed to imply that it was an exception, sort of, but according to Paizo, no, only the d8 is x 1.5.
There was A LOT of discussion on this subject back in 2000, and again in 2003. So it is no surprise that it is a hot topic AGAIN in 2009. The SRD says exactly the same thing that the PFRPG says....and I think that is the root of the problem. The 3.5 PH added a CLEAR example that states that you do, in fact, multiply the whole random variable not just the dice.
I think an example is missing because the SRD had none, and it is an oversight. And any "official" answer coming from Paizo is likely to be THAT persons interpretation/opinion unless it clearly states that it comes "from the top" and should ,therefore, be considered "gospel".
Have we had any previous clarification on this, or can we get some official clarification on it?
I want to say there was something of a clarification... But I can't remember where, or by who. I want to say the intent was to act exactly like the feat...
I do know it was brought up, and that is all the help I can be.
Jason Did in fact say it, I asked about getting extra missiles from magic missile with it (since the number is variable based on caster level), and if it was (1d4+1)x1.5 or 1d4x1.5+1 at first he said the former, then he clarified it was the later. HOWEVER this was during the rush to gencon, the move coming up and in the middle of the preview of the pathfinder book so he may have been a bit scattered... there were a few other things that, now that I have the book, were off too.
Jason Did in fact say it, I asked about getting extra missiles from magic missile with it (since the number is variable based on caster level), and if it was (1d4+1)x1.5 or 1d4x1.5+1 at first he said the former, then he clarified it was the later. HOWEVER this was during the rush to gencon, the move coming up and in the middle of the preview of the pathfinder book so he may have been a bit scattered... there were a few other things that, now that I have the book, were off too.
Right - basically it was "Answer unclear, try again later"
Jason Did in fact say it, I asked about getting extra missiles from magic missile with it (since the number is variable based on caster level), and if it was (1d4+1)x1.5 or 1d4x1.5+1 at first he said the former, then he clarified it was the later. HOWEVER this was during the rush to gencon, the move coming up and in the middle of the preview of the pathfinder book so he may have been a bit scattered... there were a few other things that, now that I have the book, were off too.
That's a different question than the one I had hoped to ask. And no, I don't mean because it's a different spell.
By the way, are you sure you didn't ask about Mirror Image? Because Magic Missile is always 1 missle/2 levels and is always 1d4+1 damage (well, unless maybe you're an Evoker). In any case, for Magic Missile, Empower Spell doesn't increase the number of missiles at all and it only increases the damage on the d4; you add the +1 after you add the Empower.
I already know how Empower Spell works. If you actually employ the Empower Spell feat on Cure Moderate Wounds or on Magic Missile, the mechanic is the same. Multiply the random rolled value by 1.5 then add any non-random factors (such as +1 damage on the Missile or the +1/level bonus on the Cure Moderate Wounds).
But that isn't what I was trying to ask.
The actual descriptin of Healer's Blessing under the Healing Domain says it works like Empower Spell, but it also says the amount healed is increased by 50%. These two statements contradict each other, and I'm just trying to figure out if the RAI was to work exactly like Empower or to actually multiply the final healing amount by 1.5.
Jason Did in fact say it, I asked about getting extra missiles from magic missile with it (since the number is variable based on caster level), and if it was (1d4+1)x1.5 or 1d4x1.5+1 at first he said the former, then he clarified it was the later. HOWEVER this was during the rush to gencon, the move coming up and in the middle of the preview of the pathfinder book so he may have been a bit scattered... there were a few other things that, now that I have the book, were off too.That's a different question than the one I had hoped to ask. And no, I don't mean because it's a different spell.
By the way, are you sure you didn't ask about Mirror Image? Because Magic Missile is always 1 missle/2 levels and is always 1d4+1 damage (well, unless maybe you're an Evoker). In any case, for Magic Missile, Empower Spell doesn't increase the number of missiles at all and it only increases the damage on the d4; you add the +1 after you add the Empower.
I already know how Empower Spell works. If you actually employ the Empower Spell feat on Cure Moderate Wounds or on Magic Missile, the mechanic is the same. Multiply the random rolled value by 1.5 then add any non-random factors (such as +1 damage on the Missile or the +1/level bonus on the Cure Moderate Wounds).
But that isn't what I was trying to ask.
The actual descriptin of Healer's Blessing under the Healing Domain says it works like Empower Spell, but it also says the amount healed is increased by 50%. These two statements contradict each other, and I'm just trying to figure out if the RAI was to work exactly like Empower or to actually multiply the final healing amount by 1.5.
I think they mean both =)
As in the ability mimicks Empower Spell, for what spells it can be added to, and after you roll the dice, you increase the total (including the level modifier) by 50%. So it would effect the cure line of spells, but not the heal spell.
Or at least thats how it seems to me.
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I couldn't imagine there to be an exception for this. Exceptions are bad, mmkay?
I personally would rather the strict 1.5x. With this I mean (xDy+z)*1.5 (x = number of dice, y = sides of die, z = constant). It doesn't make empowering spells like Produce Flame a waste of your time. For example a 5th-level Druid would deal 1d6+5 (ranging from 6 to 11) with a standard produce flame. With a strict 50% increase it'd become (1d6+5)*1.5, thus ranging from 9 to 16. If only the random variable (1d6) is increased (1d6*1.5+5), the range would merely be 6 to 13. To me, that's lame.
Actually now that I check it up, the description for Empower Spell is exactly the same as in 3.5. So, since Empower Spell worked on constants as well in 3.5, why wouldn't it work in PFRPG?
I couldn't imagine there to be an exception for this. Exceptions are bad, mmkay?
I personally would rather the strict 1.5x. With this I mean (xDy+z)*1.5 (x = number of dice, y = sides of die, z = constant). It doesn't make empowering spells like Produce Flame a waste of your time. For example a 5th-level Druid would deal 1d6+5 (ranging from 6 to 11) with a standard produce flame. With a strict 50% increase it'd become (1d6+5)*1.5, thus ranging from 9 to 16. If only the random variable (1d6) is increased (1d6*1.5+5), the range would merely be 6 to 13. To me, that's lame.
Actually now that I check it up, the description for Empower Spell is exactly the same as in 3.5. So, since Empower Spell worked on constants as well in 3.5, why wouldn't it work in PFRPG?
A variable isn't a constant...
A variable isn't a constant...
"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half." -PFRPG
IOW, what you roll. Static modifiers (+1 damage per magic missile, or the cleric's level bonus to cure spells) do not change. Cool as the ability is, the clearing up of the question will confirm the above. I give it a 98.23333% chance of it going that way.
A variable isn't a constant...
"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half." -PFRPG
IOW, what you roll. Static modifiers (+1 damage per magic missile, or the cleric's level bonus to cure spells) do not change. Cool as the ability is, the clearing up of the question will confirm the above. I give it a 98.23333% chance of it going that way.
I know, I was referring to what Deussu said.
And the main reason I think the healing domain power is worded the way it happens to be is because I think the designers intended for it to boost the level dependent part of the cure line of spells, but not spells such as heal, which have no rolled healing potential at all.
I know, I was referring to what Deussu said.
And the main reason I think the healing domain power is worded the way it happens to be is because I think the designers intended for it to boost the level dependent part of the cure line of spells, but not spells such as heal, which have no rolled healing potential at all.
We shall see! (8-0
I'm cool with either way, but my money's on regular empowered, just for consistency.
I know, I was referring to what Deussu said.
And the main reason I think the healing domain power is worded the way it happens to be is because I think the designers intended for it to boost the level dependent part of the cure line of spells, but not spells such as heal, which have no rolled healing potential at all.
We shall see! (8-0
I'm cool with either way, but my money's on regular empowered, just for consistency.
Mine is to, if for no other reason that its simpler and doesn't create a precedent for exceptions...but...sure would be cool...after all...it is a divine domain...and don't the gods write the rules? =)
I'm cool with either way, but my money's on regular empowered, just for consistency.
I'm quite certain it means "regular empowered". The actual question is what that means, because this is not a hard fact, and the only actual example (besides being a poor one) is contrary to the idea of not including constants.
We *really* don't need to rehash the argument here (believe me, it usually goes on for pages and pages), but here's the summary:
Not multiplying the constant: This (your) argument is quite simple and sensible - it says variable, caster level is not a variable, so don't multiply that.
Multiplying the whole effect: This argument is that the "effect" of a cure spell is it's healing, which is of the variable, numeric sort. Thus the effect as a whole is raised by 50%, rather than simply the amount from the dice.
I already know how Empower Spell works.
And Knowing is +50% of the battle...
Seriously, if you "know" how it works, then you don't really need to ask your original question. It plainly states it works like the Empower Spell feat.
For the Record all, it says "cure spells" - Heal doesn't count regardless.
At the time we didn't have the books, so Jason had stated something like "all variable numbers are multiplied by the empower spell metamagic.
1/2 caster level is a variable. 1/2C to be exact so I used magic missile since it was an easy to explain (in both directions) example. However Jason then clarified that the number of missiles doesn't increase (which kind of bums me out, I want a metamagic that increases the number of x I get out of the spell where x = number of missiles, rays, etc). Mirror Image was clearly a rolled dice so I knew that it would be increased. Jason also stated in his clarification to me (two actually) the above, and the correction from the above.
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. . .caster level is not a variable. . .
Actually that is the problem, caster level is a variable, just not the one they may (or may not) have intended. :)
Every single Wizard that casts Magic Missile will deal 1d4+1 (per missile), so that +1 is constant.
However, every single Cleric that casts cule light wounds will not heal/deal 1d8+4.
I already know how Empower Spell works.And Knowing is +50% of the battle...
Seriously, if you "know" how it works, then you don't really need to ask your original question. It plainly states it works like the Empower Spell feat.
That's exactly my point.
I know how Empower Spell works, and the Healing Domain says it works like Empower Spell, so it should be simple, but the Healing Domain *ALSO* says "increasing the amount of damage healed by half (+50%)." Note that it does not say "increasing [i]the variable{/i} amount of damage healed by half (+50%).
So right there, within the same sentence of the same Domain power, the rule contradicts itself.
Which is exactly why I do really need to ask my original question.
. . .caster level is not a variable. . .Actually that is the problem, caster level is a variable, just not the one they may (or may not) have intended. :)
Every single Wizard that casts Magic Missile will deal 1d4+1 (per missile), so that +1 is constant.
However, every single Cleric that casts cule light wounds will not heal/deal 1d8+4.
Now we're getting into semantics.
Technically, at the time the spell is cast, the caster level is not variable at all. The spell is being empowered in the instant in which it is cast; the fact that at some undetermined time in the (possibly distant) past, and/or also at some undetermined time in the (possibly distant) future, the constant caster level may have been or might be a different constant value has no bearing on the hear and now.
Right now, at the time the empowered Cure Wounds spell is cast, the caster level is a constant added to the equation. It is not a variable.
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The by itself is a variable. This includes Magic Missile's 1d4+1, and Produce Flame's 1d6+CL.
Say the Empower Spell metamagic feat would act like a computer program, searching for x inside the spell description. Before that though, you'd have to convert the 'numeric variable' into x. With Magic Missile, this numeric variable is 1d4+1, ranging from 2 to 5.
The amount of missiles doesn't increase since it's literally numeric. The spell description speaks of "additional missiles", not "you can fire CL/3+1 missiles."
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. . .caster level is not a variable. . .Actually that is the problem, caster level is a variable, just not the one they may (or may not) have intended. :)
Every single Wizard that casts Magic Missile will deal 1d4+1 (per missile), so that +1 is constant.
However, every single Cleric that casts cule light wounds will not heal/deal 1d8+4.
Now we're getting into semantics.
Technically, at the time the spell is cast, the caster level is not variable at all. The spell is being empowered in the instant in which it is cast; the fact that at some undetermined time in the (possibly distant) past, and/or also at some undetermined time in the (possibly distant) future, the constant caster level may have been or might be a different constant value has no bearing on the hear and now.
Right now, at the time the empowered Cure Wounds spell is cast, the caster level is a constant added to the equation. It is not a variable.
I'm not trying to argue, and Paizo already stated their official view, following that example there is no variable. At the time that wizard casts magic missile, and rolls a 1, that 1+1 are now constant, so couldn't be empowered.
:)
My view is just based off the definition of variable, not mathmatic equations, though.
Blake, I hate to say it, but you know wrong.
A single magic missile does a numeric amount of damage. That amount is variable. To be precise, it varies between 2 and 5 points. After figuring out whether it's actually doing 2, 3, 4 or 5 points, Empower increases the total by 50%.
This is consistent with both the text of the Healing domain, and with the example given in the 3.5e feat description (which is, in fact, Magic Missile).
Yes, I've seen previous rulings direct from WotC which contradicted it, and I believed them until the contradictory example was published. According to the designers (who are the ultimate source), the judges were wrong all along; and the wording of the Heal domain to me only implies that Paizo intends to keep that newer clarification in place.
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Blake, I hate to say it, but you know wrong.
A single magic missile does a numeric amount of damage. That amount is variable. To be precise, it varies between 2 and 5 points. After figuring out whether it's actually doing 2, 3, 4 or 5 points, Empower increases the total by 50%.
This is consistent with both the text of the Healing domain, and with the example given in the 3.5e feat description (which is, in fact, Magic Missile).
Yes, I've seen previous rulings direct from WotC which contradicted it, and I believed them until the contradictory example was published. According to the designers (who are the ultimate source), the judges were wrong all along; and the wording of the Heal domain to me only implies that Paizo intends to keep that newer clarification in place.
While I'd personally rule the same way as you, in that 2d8+5 is a variable between 7 and 21, the wording is vague enough that either interpretation could be valid...
My own decision is based on assuming an equation for damage: (damage) = (dice) + (constant). While the (constant) is of course constant, it is included in the variable (damage) and is therefore multiplied.
Blake - the Healing Domain is only contradictory if you are using your interpretation of the Empower feat. But that really doesn't matter for you - if you use empower as multiplying dice rolls only, you're done - no need to look further.
You are 100% correct though, Caster level is not a variable.
The by itself is a variable. This includes Magic Missile's 1d4+1, and Produce Flame's 1d6+CL.
Neither X, Y, nor Z are variables in this case. They are constant when cast. The *resulting effect* of xDy+z is what is variable. The question at hand is whether empower applies only to the result of xDy, or the whole effect.
A brief snippet from a Domain power is not anything to make a judgement on, either way (and I say this while it points my way in this case).
Tejón very nicely and succinctly sums up my position.
Majuba - who wouldn't mind an empowered 6th level Fireball doing 9d9 damage... (since all those numeric variables are increased...)
x = nDy+z, better?
Basically I'm saying the same thing as Tejón.
Oh I know - just having a bit of fun with it - it wasn't my intent to have it at your expense.
Also I was making the point that it doesn't matter whether n, y, or z are variable - x *IS*. :)
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SRD Feat reads:
"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables."
Pathfinder RPG Core Rules reads:
"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered
spell are increased by half.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor
are spells without random variables."
The 3.5 latest edition of the Player's Handbook reads:
"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are
increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much
damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half
again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate. For example, an
empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll
1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1-1/2 for each missile). Saving
throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast
dispel magic) are not affected, nor are spells without random
variables."
That's copy pasted from their respective sources, they do the EXACT same thing.
YOU WILL NOTICE that all three feats are worded in the EXACT SAME FASHION, with no differences. Kindly though, the 3.5 Player's handbook uses plain, simple english to further CLARIFY what the feat does by giving an EASY TO FOLLOW example which makes it crystal clear how the feat is applied: You roll up your damage or healing AS NORMAL, with all modifiers the spell calls for, and multiply the entire result by 1.5 to get your new damage or healing or whatever.
I don't know why Paizo figured examples and clarifications are useless things to put into their core rulebook, since I guess we're all just supposed to know how things work from 3.5?(See also spells like Suggestion, which could really, REALLY use more clarification in PRPG).
But to argue that you only multiply the dice rolled is completely wrong. That's not how the feat ever worked, and since the feat was not changed at all, that's still not how it works. It would be fairly awful in that respect. I will say, that if Paizo intends to drastically change a feat or spell, they make that fairly clear. That wasn't done in this case, because the feat is exactly the same. Use some common sense please. They just forgot when they wrote the Healing Domain section that there wasn't enough room in the book to actually fully explain the feat, so they just wrote it the way they knew it worked.
I don't know why Paizo figured examples and clarifications are useless things to put into their core rulebook
My guess is that it has to do with the number 576. That's how many pages are in the core rulebook. Now notice that the 3.5 version of the Empower Spell feat is 4-5 times as long as the PFRPG version, and apply that result throughout the book.
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My guess is that it has to do with the number 576. That's how many pages are in the core rulebook. Now notice that the 3.5 version of the Empower Spell feat is 4-5 times as long as the PFRPG version, and apply that result throughout the book.
Yes, well, I'm also noticing how the binding on my mammoth 576 page manual(both copies that I own) are looking a little troublesome at about 2 weeks into ownership, as well as the fact that apparently they can't be bothered to explain feats clearly. Despite the high quality binding, this book is simply not going to last for years, physically. It's just not.
Maybe, two separate books would have been in order?
Maybe, two separate books would have been in order?
Then you'd be looking at a 700+ page PHB and a 150 page DMG, assuming you meant "two separate books with examples". They added a royal ton of stuff to the PHB that didn't exist in the 3.5 PHB. Adding extended examples to everything would make the book un-economical -- especially when the text didn't change from 3.5 to PFRPG.
How does this ability (healing domain) work when the cleric makes a cure scroll? Is the scroll empowered for free? Do they have to figure it's base cost as 2 levels higher?
"Casting" isn't the same as "making a scroll" or "activating a scroll". I don't believe a scroll made by a cleric with the Healing domain would get any benefit out of it. They don't have the Empower Spell feat, so technically they wouldn't have the option of making a scroll of empowered cure X wounds. A Healing cleric also wouldn't get any additional benefits out of activating a normal cure scroll, since there's a difference between "activating a scroll" and "casting a spell".
Magic items in general are pretty lowest-common-denominator in what benefits they get from the maker and user. Usually neither benefits from specific abilities that modify how a spell takes effect.