This may be addressed in the book but I have been unable to find where it says, but if a player along the course of it's career gains or loses permanently Intelligence points, would they in turn lose or gain the appropriate skills ranks and languages? For example, if a player uses a Helm of Intellect and wears it long enough to be an inherent bonus, and they level up, do they gain languages and skills ranks relative to that new magically enhanced Intelligence score or do they just gain only skill ranks to there true Intelligence ability mod.
The reason I ask is because I was having some players make 11th level characters last night to run them through the Guardians of Dragonfall module while I wait for Basterds of Erebus to come in, and they decided that early on in their career they pooled their money for a powerful Helm of Intellect +4 and each leveled separatly, sharing and wearing the helm for a day prior to their leveling up, that way they got massive amounts of skill ranks.
I GM ruled that their skill rank increases only went off of their true Intellect when they leveled up, that the bonus they got only applied to enhancing their Int based skills. Was I wrong? I assumed that Intelligence worked like Constitution, if the modifier drops so too do the extra skill ranks it would have given. Otherwise it seems really broken.
This may be addressed in the book but I have been unable to find where it says, but if a player along the course of it's career gains or loses permanently Intelligence points, would they in turn lose or gain the appropriate skills ranks and languages? For example, if a player uses a Helm of Intellect and wears it long enough to be an inherent bonus, and they level up, do they gain languages and skills ranks relative to that new magically enhanced Intelligence score or do they just gain only skill ranks to there true Intelligence ability mod.
The reason I ask is because I was having some players make 11th level characters last night to run them through the Guardians of Dragonfall module while I wait for Basterds of Erebus to come in, and they decided that early on in their career they pooled their money for a powerful Helm of Intellect +4 and each leveled separatly, sharing and wearing the helm for a day prior to their leveling up, that way they got massive amounts of skill ranks.
I GM ruled that their skill rank increases only went off of their true Intellect when they leveled up, that the bonus they got only applied to enhancing their Int based skills. Was I wrong? I assumed that Intelligence worked like Constitution, if the modifier drops so too do the extra skill ranks it would have given. Otherwise it seems really broken.
First of all, as the DM, you're never wrong. That's Rule 0.
Now to address your concern specifically, v3.5 disallowed the altering skill points due to temporary changes in Intelligence (or enchancement bonuses). Furthermore, if you increased you INT score (and modifier) due to reaching 4th, 8th, 12th level, etc, you could NOT retroactively increase skill points from previous levels (as you could with hit points and CON increases). You were only allowed to increase skill points from that point on. I believe this is counterintuititve, besides being inconsistent.
However, I also cannot find where this issue is addressed in Pathfinder. Alas, all I have is the Beta version, so I might be missing something. But I think your logic is good. Intelligence should work like Constitution.
That was 100% cheese, and good call on cutting it.
I would only allow more skills from permanent increases; basically, from inherent bonuses or bonuses from level-up. Things that can't be taken away.
In 3.5, I seem to recall that a helm of intelligence actually could grant skill points, but only if worn 24/7 (not "right before levelup").
Your group sounds like a crafty bunch. I'm not familiar with that module, but if possible, find situations where they'll have a chance to scam NPCs (as opposed to scamming the DM ^~). It can be a joy to game with players like that, and to see what ways they come up with of weaseling past the challenges you present.
v3.5 disallowed the altering skill points due to temporary changes in Intelligence (or enchancement bonuses)
You may be right. I have trouble recalling things that I houseruled so quickly anyway.
That was 100% cheese, and good call on cutting it.
I would only allow more skills from permanent increases; basically, from inherent bonuses or bonuses from level-up. Things that can't be taken away.
In 3.5, I seem to recall that a helm of intelligence actually could grant skill points, but only if worn 24/7 (not "right before levelup").
Your group sounds like a crafty bunch. I'm not familiar with that module, but if possible, find situations where they'll have a chance to scam NPCs (as opposed to scamming the DM ^~). It can be a joy to game with players like that, and to see what ways they come up with of weaseling past the challenges you present.
I got a story for you about these guys.
I ran a Kobold campaign with them once, where they all made Kobold NPCs (using the amazing Races of Dragon sourcebook) and they were sent on wicked missions by their King, King Torg (who's 'mini' was the Colossal Red Dragon,) such as crashing gnomish weddings, kidnapping children at play in the center of a village, burning down said village, waylaying peaceful settlers passing through the land.
Well in the one where they had to ambush the peaceful caravan of farmers heading towards new fertile land to settle, the way they waylaid them was the Kobold in the group that was the trapmaster dug two pittraps side by side, each of them 2x2 square across the 4 square wide forest path. He used his most skill on camoflaging one of them and spent the most materials making it very deadly with vicious spikes, etc; in the other he laid a few sticks over it and wrote along the inside rim of the pit trap "Pit Trap". The Kobolds then hid in the trees. As the caravan rolled in, they spotted the overly obvious pit trap, examined it, shook their heads in disbelief, and then attempted to go around it - right over the real pit trap. The kobold then dropped trees behind the last wagon, the sorceror started launching fireballs setting the wagons, people, and the forest on fire and the winged archer Kobold circled above sniping people trying to get away. It was very funny and I don't think I will ever forget the "Fake Pit Trap" antic.
Skill points do increase retroactively unlike in 3.5, [b[but[\b] once they take the helmet off they lose any benefits that came with it.
Skill points do increase retroactively unlike in 3.5, [b[but[\b] once they take the helmet off they lose any benefits that came with it.
Where does it say this.
Skill points do increase retroactively unlike in 3.5, [b[but[\b] once they take the helmet off they lose any benefits that came with it.Where does it say this.
Page 555. I had forgotten where it was and had to hunt it down.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Might be well worth people's while to read the item "Headband of Vast Intelligence" in the PRD or in the book since it is the item in question.
Skill points do increase retroactively unlike in 3.5, [b[but[\b] once they take the helmet off they lose any benefits that came with it.Where does it say this.Page 555. I had forgotten where it was and had to hunt it down.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Thank you, man. I am gonna houserulle/clarify that they can only add skill ranks from modified stats to class skills they already have ranks in.
Assuming you mean a Headband of Vast Intelligence, this item never grants an Inherent bonus to Intelligence:
The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.
So, you wear it 24 hours, you gain ranks in specific, predetermined skills. You remove the headband (i.e. stop using the magic item) the magic effect goes away.
Oh, and a quick note on languages. Intelligence only affects "the number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game." Gaining Intelligence, even permanently, after character creation does not grant more languages.
Oh, and a quick note on languages. Intelligence only affects "the number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game." Gaining Intelligence, even permanently, after character creation does not grant more languages.
Good point, but it seems to make sense that an increase in Intelligence would grant you the capacity to learn more languages, even if one chose not to.
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Oh, and a quick note on languages. Intelligence only affects "the number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game." Gaining Intelligence, even permanently, after character creation does not grant more languages.Good point, but it seems to make sense that an increase in Intelligence would grant you the capacity to learn more languages, even if one chose not to.
Not always. After all, adults have a harder time (on the whole) learning languages than kids do. So if you grew up speaking (example) elven in your house, common at school, and then spent the weekends with the half orc company down the way, you're going to be immersed in those languages in your development years. (and if you have an int of 14 and are human, have filled up all those slots)
Oh, and a quick note on languages. Intelligence only affects "the number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game." Gaining Intelligence, even permanently, after character creation does not grant more languages.Good point, but it seems to make sense that an increase in Intelligence would grant you the capacity to learn more languages, even if one chose not to.
But you ALWAYS have the capacity to learn more languages. Hence the Linguistics skill.
erian_7 has got it right.
Permanent changes to Int will give or take away skill points.
Headbands specifically instead grant a specific skill per +2, that overlaps (does not stack) with the PCs ranks in the skill, at maximum ranks (= LVL/HD).
So your players did indeed have more skill points when they leveled up... they just didn't get to choose which ones and they went away as soon as they passed the headband to someone else :)
This was the compromise between adding tons of complication, and utterly ignoring one of the main benefits of Int increases.
Not always. After all, adults have a harder time (on the whole) learning languages than kids do. So if you grew up speaking (example) elven in your house, common at school, and then spent the weekends with the half orc company down the way, you're going to be immersed in those languages in your development years. (and if you have an int of 14 and are human, have filled up all those slots)
I understand your point. There are some who can't learn another language to save their life, and others who know 14 different languages fluently -- really. My thinking was that with a higher INT, one could gain the capacity to learn additional languages, if one chose to do so.
And yes, this would require taking ranks in Linguistics. I have NEVER liked the fact that one could just spend some skill points and--pop!--one knew another language. That's just so cheesy!! Thus my point; with an increased Intelligence, one might could gain additional capacity to learn, and then one must spend ranks in Linguistics to learn another tongue (and I would rule several weeks training in the new language).
I don't think I will ever forget the "Fake Pit Trap" antic.
Ha! Reminds me of a similar trick I pulled on my players once, also with kobolds though there was much less sheer passionate craftsmanship involved: an easily spotted tripwire. The rogue walks up to inspect it and triggers the pressure plate which caves in the ceiling for 20 feet behind him, crushing the party.
After all, adults have a harder time (on the whole) learning languages than kids do.
This is urban legend. On a purely technical level, yes, children do learn language skills faster than adults can; but the vast majority of those skills are applicable to the vast majority of languages, and do not have to be learned again. Adults suffer no relative disability in picking up fresh vocabulary, or learning grammatical constructs for which they have even rough equivalents. (The genuinely elderly do, but they also start forgetting parts of their own language.)
I found this change troubling but have figured a way to get around it.
Once you gain the extra skill point they are yours and it would be complicated to remove the skills when the user takes the helm off.
When your intelligence score decreases for any reason you gain a number of negative skill ranks. When leveling you must apply all new skill points to the negative ranks before you may increase any other skills.
And if any player starts playing games like wanting to wear a helm for a day each time they level hit them the hand of god. We Are Not Amused!
Boosts to intelligence due to headbands of intelligence do not give you free skill points to allocate where you please. Instead, the headband gives you full ranks in 1 skill (crafter's choice) for every 2 points of intelligence the headband gives. These do not stack with existing ranks. Boosts to your intelligence still provide you your bonus to intelligence-based skills, however.
Read page 518.