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Character Overview: Detective as Hunter; this character stalks his prey and pounces, taking in criminals to solve cases by kicking them in the face. Offensively I get Sap Master and monk unarmed strike shenanigans coupled with scout charging. Charging through swarms of enemies gives me free AoOs with Snake Fang and Panther Style. Defensively I get Snake Style with a ton of Sense Motive and general monk defenses. Its about finding your opponent, knocking out any henchmen stupid enough to stand between you and your target (i.e. AoO you) while charging them.
Race was a mixture of "its my favorite race from L5R", at one point wanting to take Kitsune Trickster for the charm and bonus to Sense Motive, the idea of a fox-detective being so British it makes me sweat tea and my obsession with playing trickster spirits regardless of cultural origin.
And even though I call the character a "Sleepless Detective" I only take 1 level because...honestly...every other class feature it gets can be emulated with a magic item that I wanted to get anyway (or a wand/scroll).
Race: Kitsune
Ability Scores:
Str: 12 (-2 kitsune) = 10
Dex: 14 (+2 Kitsune) =16
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 14 (+1 at level 8 to qualify for Panther Claw)
Cha: 13 (+2 kitsune) =15 (+1 at level 4)
I'm REALLY unsure about my ability scores. Trying to squeeze in all three mental stats for the Ki Points + Monk Bonuses + Intelligence Bonuses seems REALLY unwise. I think I should dump Charisma down as it really only applies to my Ki pool. If I dump it to 8 (+2 Kitsune) that'd give me 5 extra points to play with (Letting me bring Dex to 16). Suggestions?
Flavorful Build:
Level 1: Monk (Master of Many Styles) with Snake Style (Weapon Finesse Feat)
Level 2: Ninja (Scout)
Level 3: Ninja (Sap Adept with Combat Feat Talent; Alertness as Feat); hey look Ki Points (Vows)
Level 4: Ninja
Level 5: Monk (Snake Fang and Sap Master)
Level 6: Sleepless Detective
Level 7: Ninja (Scout Ability) (Combat Reflexes; Offensive Defense with Ninja Talent)
Level 8: Ninja
Level 9: Ninja (Panther Claw; Panther Style with Ninja Talent; Vanishing Trick)
Level 10: Ninja
Level 11: Ninja (Panther Parry; Free Ninja Trick/Rogue Talent)
Level 12: Monk
So I can charge a target for 10d6+10 sneak damage. If anyone tries to AoO me during the charge, I get a free attack against them. Then if they miss, I get another free attack.
I can swift action to go invisible, (immediate) get sense motive instead of AC, get an extra attack against someone who misses me (on top of the one I already get), get an extra attack as part of a full-round...
That being said: I'm also unsure if Offensive Defense (a) applies only against the target or (b) stacks with itself. I've read the original thread about this and Sean Reynold's "Bride of the FAQ" article just said 'we haven't reached a final decision'. Later James Jacobs said it does stack (but cap it in your games if its too strong).
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Below is my attempts at trying to squeeze Vulpine Pounce and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting into the build (at level 12). I've decided to not ruin "Build 2", but if you check my "Build 1" stuff you can see what the character is completely capable of.
Vulpine Pounce Focused Build:
Level 1: Monk (Master of Many Styles) with Snake Style (Weapon Finesse Feat)
Level 2: Ninja (Scout)
Level 3: Ninja (Sap Adept with Combat Feat Talent; Combat Reflexesas Feat); hey look Ki Points (Vows)
Level 4: Ninja
Level 5: Monk (Snake Fang and Sap Master)
Level 6: Ninja (Scout Ability) (Panther Claw; Panther Style with Ninja Talent)
Level 7: Ranger
Level 8: Ranger (Two-Weapon Fighting)
Level 9: Monk (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)
Level 10: Monk
Level 11: Fighter (Swift Kitsune Shapechanger) (Lore Warden)
Level 12: Fighter (Vulpine Pounce; Panther Parry; Combat Expertise)
Comparing the two Builds:
Build 1: +8 BAB; +5 Fort; +10 Ref; +6 Will
Build 2: +10 BAB; +11 Fort; +11 Ref; +5 Will
Build 1: 80 Skill Points (+Alertness +Int on Perception, Gather Info and Sense Motive)
Build 2: 60 Skill Points (+All Intelligence Based Skills are now class skills; giving access to 7 more knowledge skills as class skills; cancels out alertness and int bonus)
Build 1: 5 Ki Points + Charisma; 2 "Open" Ninja Talents
Build 2: 4 Ki Points + Cha or Wis; Can use points for Monk abilities
Build 1 Damage: +10d6+10 Sneak Attack; 2 attacks per full round at +8/+3; ~+45 on Charge
Build 2 Damage: +4d6+4 Sneak Attack; 4 attacks per full round at +8/+8/+3/+3; Four attacks on charge using Swift Action (1 less retaliatory strike and not when using snake style to dodge); ~+72 on charge if all 4 hit; lets assume only 2.5 hit for +45 on charge; But this doesn't apply weapon bonuses, strength bonuses and everything else that comes with getting 4 attacks per charge.
Build 1 Sense Motive: 19+Int
Build 2 Sense Motive: 15
(Neither Include things they both get i.e. Snake Style, Traits, Items, Wisdom Bonus)
Extra Goodies:
Build 1: Skirmisher (SA after 10ft movement; combo with Snake Sidewinder); 2 Free Ninja Talent (vanishing trick and offensive defense); +1 No Trace; Light Steps; Alertness; +Int to 3 skills; Forensic Thaumatury (Detect Magic at will)
Build 2: Combat Expertise; 1st Favored Enemy; Track; Wild Empathy; +1 monk level to unarmed strikes; +1 AC; +10ft movement speed; slow fall 20ft; Ki Pool (magic); Ki Point Swift Action +4 AC (probably will never ever ever use)
Final Comparison:
Build 1 Has Better Skills; Build 2 Has Better Fort Save
Build 1 Can get +10 dodge AC and has higher Snake Style defense; Build 2 gets +1 Monk AC and Combat Expertise
Build 1 has higher sneak attack damage, can sneak without charging with skirmisher, can sneak by going invisible thus allowing for 2 attack full round sneak…
This is where I stopped building. once I realized you can full round after Vanishing it was "no contest". I know the vanishing is only ~5 times per day but usually that's more than enough. The Extra 2 Rogue Talents versus trying to get Vulpine Pounce? And when Vulpine Pounce takes up your swift action for that round? It just isn't worth it.
I like it. I also like the uniqueness of a Monk with a decent CHA. I think this will be a fun build, even if hardly a DPR monster.
Mind you- Know Your DM. Have you seen your local PFS DM's play? Do they include lots of puzzles, mysteries, roleplaying? or is it all Hack & Slash?
Would not Skill Focus Perc be better than Alertness, since it scales?
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Would not Skill Focus Perc be better than Alertness, since it scales?
Alertness is a prerequisite for Sleepless Detective (and it does scale) plus I'm getting it for Sense Motive (since I can replace my AC with sense motive).
Ki pool only keys off of 1 ability score.
I'm aware; just put "Wis or Cha" in the "bonuses" because there's a good chance by the time I reach that level that one will be higher than the other and when I wrote that up Charisma was a dump stat.
Mind you- Know Your DM. Have you seen your local PFS DM's play? Do they include lots of puzzles, mysteries, roleplaying? or is it all Hack & Slash?
I've played in 4 games with 4 GMs from 3 different groups. Its too varied to say. Some adventures were very roleplay heavy with "out of the (dice) box" thinking getting us way further than combat...others were combat heavy. But I have noticed that almost all of them have some "mystery" element. Either traditional murder mystery/in your face (Murder on the Throaty Mermaid; My Enemies' Enemy) or more Pathfinder-y/"ancient mysteries" (Godsmouth Heresy). And since this character's M-O is solving mysteries *and* assuming *everything* is a mystery...I should be fine out of combat. Plenty of skill points going into knowledges, high perception/sense motive/bluff/diplomacy...
That being said, I was actually afraid this character would be "too good"; I played a similiar build with my friends outside of Society and got complaints...sneak attack equal to my level (even if nonlethal) + scout + offensive defense + snake style made me a really efficient tank (not necessarily the biggest damage dealer against a DM whose mooks realized they should stop using attack of opportunity against me...but at the same time efficient!).
I'm afraid my spell defenses are awfully low though. My saves don't look too hot; especially Fort and Will. I wonder if I can get enough magic item supplementation to make up for it...
No one mentioned it yet but.. this guy should struggle to hit anything. With 3 3/4 classes by lvl 7 you have a +4?
Unless I'm missing something you will not hit anything.
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You saw I had weapon finesse, right? Becuase I'm probably shifting my Cha around to get 18 Dex (well 16+2 from kitsune). At level 7 that'd give me +8 to hit. Against CR7 monsters that's basically a 50% hit chance. Coupled with the fact this character's most frequent tactic is to charge, flank and attack flat-footed enemies...I should be getting at least +9.5 on average with each attack.
...If you have any suggestions I'm all for it. But is it unreasonable to assume I'd have a teammate willing to either help me flank (if they were a fighter-type) or buff (if they were a caster)? Thus so far in all my society games this has been the case.
EDIT: Oh I found this. Yeah, +10 barely makes the "Green" for CR6...hmm I gotta look into ways to make sure I hit. Dexterity boosters and weapon enhancements I suppose; I'm really not used to playing non-monstrous characters anymore...(i.e. I'm usually a DM...).
What keep Big Bad from leaving as your wade through his mooks?
(Big Bads do like to do that.)
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What keep Big Bad from leaving as your wade through his mooks?
(Big Bads do like to do that.)
I'm glad you asked; its what I designed this guy to do!
If I can't do my primary tactic, I'll go invisible and sneak around them. If I can't, of course...I run!
I run through the mooks (if I can, charging the boss) provoking attacks of opportunity the whole way through. See the first attack of opportunity I can Snake Style to almost guarantee a miss. Then, using Skirmish for the Sneak Attack damage if I'm running, Scout's Charge if I'm charging, I'll deal my Xd6 sneak attack damage to the mook that was foolish enough to try to hit me--using Offensive Defense to add the sneak attack dice to my AC that round. Then I continue my charge, every time a mook tries to hit me hitting them back instead!
And eventually in the build when I complete the Panther Stance (using Fuse Stance to combine Snake and Panther) I can get 2 Attacks of Opportunity for every attack of opportunity attempted against me (one of which doesn't use up my AoO's per round).
Flavor wise? My character is always writing down what's happening around him. He fights with his feet. So he's just bounding from enemy to enemy, kicking them in the face as he goes towards the big-bad.
...Its like a really inefficient ray that has to roll attack rolls all the way down the line. But, you know, with more style.
The problem with the above scenerio is when the DM goes "The rest of the mooks just let you pass, having seen you beat up their friends" or, worse yet, "they join hands and form a wall between you and the boss". At which point I guess I gotta walk up and start doing actions that provoke attacks of opportunity and/or acrobatics to jump over them.
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...I was trying to figure out how to "provoke" from everyone around me "all day long" without spending any actions.
I think the least feat intensive way is "Stand Up" (stand as a free action; still provokes) since falling Prone is a free action too. Kinda gives me this weird drunken fighter or even capoeira...constantly falling on the ground and standing just to provoke...my character already largely used his legs to attack.
Probably not as useful as other choices...
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I will be posting updates on adventures in this thread, especially now that I'm level 2 (again).
Here's the final sheet at level 12: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=653639
Here's my current sheet if you ever want to see where I am:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=483318
This is partially for my own records; I tend to switch between computers a lot.