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Sorry, this class is just broken. For example, a lvl 5/5/10 cleric/wizard/mystic theurge is the equivalent to a lvl 15/15 cleric/wizard for spell selection. That means they are able to cast up to lvl 8 spells in both classes and have ton of them to boot.
Yea, they only get up to lvl 5 in their domain and wizard abilities, but their capstone ability of being able to casting two lvl 8 spells in one round along with a quickened lvl 3 spell if you go that route it's sick.
Okay, you can only do it once/day. Still, imagine starting the round w/ a quickened lvl 15 Fireball followed by lvl 15 Polar Ray and Fire Storm [just to go the max damage]. That is like 45d of damage in one round.
How about instead you go w/ a Quickened Haste followed by Summon Monster VIII and then Holy Aura. Hello indestructible group and back up singers.
The combinations are endless.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Meanwhile, the 20th level wizard casts time stop and whatever spells he wants during it, and the 20th leve cleric can cast gate, implosion, etc, not to mention can channel energy for 10d6 instead of 2d6.
I don't think the MT is that far off from other 20th level characters.
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Sorry, this class is just broken. For example, a lvl 5/5/10 cleric/wizard/mystic theurge is the equivalent to a lvl 15/15 cleric/wizard for spell selection. That means they are able to cast up to lvl 8 spells in both classes and have ton of them to boot.
Yea, they only get up to lvl 5 in their domain and wizard abilities, but their capstone ability of being able to casting two lvl 8 spells in one round along with a quickened lvl 3 spell if you go that route it's sick.
Okay, you can only do it once/day. Still, imagine starting the round w/ a quickened lvl 15 Fireball followed by lvl 15 Polar Ray and Fire Storm [just to go the max damage]. That is like 45d of damage in one round.
How about instead you go w/ a Quickened Haste followed by Summon Monster VIII and then Holy Aura. Hello indestructible group and back up singers.
The combinations are endless.
People have been saying the class is broken since it was introduced in the 3.5 DMG. It isn't. Period. If anything it's a bit underpowered. Let me ask you one simple question: have you ever actually, as a player, played a mystic theurge, or is this just a gut, theoretical, non-playtest reaction? I have played one, (Clr 3/Wiz 3/MyT 4 up to MyT 8) and the supposed overpowered abilities just aren't there, compared to any other high level spellcaster. You still only have 1 standard action per round, regardless of how many spells you can use per day. If the party needs you to be healing as a cleric, your wizard spells aren't being cast. It doesn't matter how much potential you have if you can never exercise it. And, given that one of your responsibilities will be healing, you have to wade into the middle of combat with your measly d6 hit dice (d4s in 3.5) not wearing any armor. Low hp + low AC + having to be in range of the monsters = dead mystic theurge.
Now, as to the capstone ability of the class, yes, it is a powerful one. One time per day, you can cast two spells in a round, and a possible Quickened spell on top of that. It's undeniably powerful. I'm not arguing that point. Though I might point out a Wizard 7/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 10 can drop a Meteor Swarm and a Fire Storm and whatever Quickened spell you prefer, rather than just 2 8th level ones and the Quickened.
Meanwhile the 20th level Fighter is using Stunning Critical and a Scimitar to have a 15-20/x3 critical that on any confirmed threat (and he gets +4 to confirm from Critical Focus) will Stun or Stagger a creature for 1d4 rounds, and breaking through the first 10 points of DR with Greater Penetrating Strike, and a +6 to attack and +8 to damage with Weapon Training and Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization, and being immune to all disarm attempts.
And. And. And. 20th level characters, regardless of class have a heck of a lot of "And". They're majorly powerful. So are the monsters.
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Sorry, this class is just broken. For example, a lvl 5/5/10 cleric/wizard/mystic theurge is the equivalent to a lvl 15/15 cleric/wizard for spell selection. That means they are able to cast up to lvl 8 spells in both classes and have ton of them to boot.
Yea, they only get up to lvl 5 in their domain and wizard abilities, but their capstone ability of being able to casting two lvl 8 spells in one round along with a quickened lvl 3 spell if you go that route it's sick.
Okay, you can only do it once/day. Still, imagine starting the round w/ a quickened lvl 15 Fireball followed by lvl 15 Polar Ray and Fire Storm [just to go the max damage]. That is like 45d of damage in one round.
How about instead you go w/ a Quickened Haste followed by Summon Monster VIII and then Holy Aura. Hello indestructible group and back up singers.
The combinations are endless.
Didn't you just complain in another that prestice classes are inferior, so noone would take them except for 'roleplaying' reasons, especially as a spellcaster?
Meanwhile the 20th level Fighter is using Stunning Critical and a Scimitar to have a 15-20/x3 critical that on any confirmed threat (and he gets +4 to confirm from Critical Focus) will Stun or Stagger a creature for 1d4 rounds, and breaking through the first 10 points of DR with Greater Penetrating Strike, and a +6 to attack and +8 to damage with Weapon Training and Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization, and being immune to all disarm attempts.
And. And. And. 20th level characters, regardless of class have a heck of a lot of "And". They're majorly powerful. So are the monsters.
Actually, a 20th level fighter will autoconfirm any critical threat. Which is nice, especially with dual kukris.
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Meanwhile the 20th level Fighter is using Stunning Critical and a Scimitar to have a 15-20/x3 critical that on any confirmed threat (and he gets +4 to confirm from Critical Focus) will Stun or Stagger a creature for 1d4 rounds, and breaking through the first 10 points of DR with Greater Penetrating Strike, and a +6 to attack and +8 to damage with Weapon Training and Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization, and being immune to all disarm attempts.
And. And. And. 20th level characters, regardless of class have a heck of a lot of "And". They're majorly powerful. So are the monsters.
Actually, a 20th level fighter will autoconfirm any critical threat. Which is nice, especially with dual kukris.
Thanks for catching that. Yes. Sorry. 15-20 automatically confirming to x3 and forcing a DC 30 Fort save or the target is stunned for 1d4 rounds, a successful save only staggering the target for 1d4 rounds. Ha Ha Mr. Dragon, you either can't attack at all or at the very least you can't full attack us now!
Theurge isn't that bad, in particular if you actually play your character the whole way through. You are Wizard 3/ Cleric3/ Theurge 1 and cast as a 4th level in each class casting 2nd level spells. Meanwhile your wizard and cleric friends are casting 4th level spells. You pretty much remain way behind your fellow casters for your entire career and in particular seriously suck at the mid levels when everyone else is getting all their cool powers. When you finally get fireball at 8th level everyone else is way beyond that.
20th level rant
Ok, if you want to compare 20th level brokeness nothing beats the 20th level diviner. He has a class ability which means he always goes first and always acts in the surprise round (first). Should the diviner have improve initiative and a decent dex then his initiative can be as high as 36-38 every time.
You catch the diviners party in a perfect ambush? His 30+ initiative means he is going first unless you happen to be another diviner. So the Diviner casts time stop... then he has 2-5 rounds (or whatever) to assess the situation and teleport out if needed, gate in allies, whatever. Some guy wielding the instant kill kukris is not much threat since the diviner would be crazy to let him in arms reach.
Personally I could care less about 20th level though and theurge is fine.
While we have a theurge thread up anyway, is there any real reason why you couldn't just give him "combine spells (all spell levels)" at 1st level?
Is it really so good that it needs to be handed out piecemeal over the life of the class?
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20th level rant
Ok, if you want to compare 20th level brokeness nothing beats the 20th level diviner. He has a class ability which means he always goes first and always acts in the surprise round (first). Should the diviner have improve initiative and a decent dex then his initiative can be as high as 36-38 every time.You catch the diviners party in a perfect ambush? His 30+ initiative means he is going first unless you happen to be another diviner. So the Diviner casts time stop... then he has 2-5 rounds (or whatever) to assess the situation and teleport out if needed, gate in allies, whatever. Some guy wielding the instant kill kukris is not much threat since the diviner would be crazy to let him in arms reach.
Personally I could care less about 20th level though and theurge is fine.
Their "natural 20 on initiative" ability doesn't mean they automatically act first, regardless of what the other side rolls. They get to act in the surprise round regardless of their Perception roll, but are flat-footed until they act. If somebody can beat their 30-38 initiative "roll" then the 20th level Diviner isn't acting first.
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You know what happens when you use that MST capstone ability? You label your self a threat to the BBEG, which by 16th level(the soonest you can get the ability) is most likely what you are going to use it against. I agree with the other posters. A Mystic Theurge is strong, but it is not broke. If you want broke, go get some splat books and ask for help from the nice people here on Paizo in making a character.
Broke is being able to make 16 natural attack before 20th level.
Broke is having an AC of 97(whith touch and flat-footed AC not far behind).
Broke is being 12th level and killing the tarrasque by yourself.
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Broken is a Half-Celestial Human Paladin 7/Divine Champion 5/Pious Templar 4, with a 30 Charisma, saves of +32/+20/+22, SR 26, and resistance 10 to acid, cold, and electricity. Plus a Ring of Evasion and Greater Fire Resistance armor. Short of a metric ton of sonic damage, I was damned near immortal.
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Broken is a Half-Celestial Human Paladin 7/Divine Champion 5/Pious Templar 4, with a 30 Charisma, saves of +32/+20/+22, SR 26, and resistance 10 to acid, cold, and electricity. Plus a Ring of Evasion and Greater Fire Resistance armor. Short of a metric ton of sonic damage, I was damned near immortal.
Broke, or fun to kill?
Their "natural 20 on initiative" ability doesn't mean they automatically act first, regardless of what the other side rolls. They get to act in the surprise round regardless of their Perception roll, but are flat-footed until they act. If somebody can beat their 30-38 initiative "roll" then the 20th level Diviner isn't acting first.
I suppose but since the bonus is untyped and the 20 is a "roll" the diviner has the same options for boosting initiative that everyone else does. 38 is fairly easy to attain with fairly generic effects (belt of dex/ improved init).
Their "natural 20 on initiative" ability doesn't mean they automatically act first, regardless of what the other side rolls. They get to act in the surprise round regardless of their Perception roll, but are flat-footed until they act. If somebody can beat their 30-38 initiative "roll" then the 20th level Diviner isn't acting first.I suppose but since the bonus is untyped and the 20 is a "roll" the diviner has the same options for boosting initiative that everyone else does. 38 is fairly easy to attain with fairly generic effects (belt of dex/ improved init).
For the S&Gs
The highest the Dex could get is 20+16 = 36 meaning a +13, Improved Initiative for +4, Diviner for +10, Reactive Trait for +2, Haste for 1= +30
So a '20' on the Initiative roll would give a maximum Initiative of 50.
Anyone else got anything to add into that?
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For the S&Gs
The highest the Dex could get is 20+16 = 36 meaning a +13, Improved Initiative for +4, Diviner for +10, Reactive Trait for +2, Haste for 1= +30
So a '20' on the Initiative roll would give a maximum Initiative of 50.
Anyone else got anything to add into that?
A Deep Red Ioun Sphere gives you a plus +2 to Dex. Then there are the belts in Pathfinder. The Aggressive Trait from the d20srd and UA give you another +2 to Intiative.
I think I'm missing something though...
A Deep Red Ioun Sphere gives you a plus +2 to Dex. Then there are the belts in Pathfinder. The Aggressive Trait from the d20srd and UA give you another +2 to Intiative.I think I'm missing something though...
Clarification: Paizo stuff, while I realize that backwards compatability means we could get really crazy I'm trying to stick to fairly core stuff.
Ioun Stone is an enhancment bonus, doesn't stack with the belt that is included in the "+16" For additional clarification that +16 is +6 enhancement + 5 level adjustment + 5 inherent (book).
People have been saying the class is broken since it was introduced in the 3.5 DMG. It isn't. Period. If anything it's a bit underpowered. Let me ask you one simple question: have you ever actually, as a player, played a mystic theurge, or is this just a gut, theoretical, non-playtest reaction?Sorry, this class is just broken. For example, a lvl 5/5/10 cleric/wizard/mystic theurge is the equivalent to a lvl 15/15 cleric/wizard for spell selection. That means they are able to cast up to lvl 8 spells in both classes and have ton of them to boot.
Yea, they only get up to lvl 5 in their domain and wizard abilities, but their capstone ability of being able to casting two lvl 8 spells in one round along with a quickened lvl 3 spell if you go that route it's sick.
Okay, you can only do it once/day. Still, imagine starting the round w/ a quickened lvl 15 Fireball followed by lvl 15 Polar Ray and Fire Storm [just to go the max damage]. That is like 45d of damage in one round.
How about instead you go w/ a Quickened Haste followed by Summon Monster VIII and then Holy Aura. Hello indestructible group and back up singers.
The combinations are endless.
Guarantee it's a theoretical and poorly thought out reaction.
The truth is, as anyone who has ever played a multiclassed spellcaster can tell you, any time you give up levels of spellcasting it hurts. Even a single level behind hurts terribly. Three levels behind is crippling. Five is worse at 20th level (or 7 in arcane or divine if you split that way). Spell resistance is much harder to deal with (especially without things like Assay resistance), you rarely have the proper spells for the proper levels to deal with specific threats. Your healing spells heal less, your damage spells do less damage, and your non combat spells don't last as long. Your spell DC's are between 3-6 points lower than the single classed caster.
I don't remember what exactly it worked out to, but I ran the numbers some years ago on the MT's spells per day - and when you look at the math the truth is, because they are levels behind and splitting their casting stat, they don't have more spells then single classed characters except for levels that are nearly irrelevant (2nd-3rd-4th levels spells aren't particularly meaningful when the other guy is throwing around 9th level spells). As I recall on the 5/5/10 split the single classed wizard ended up with more spells of both 7th and 8th level than the Wiz/Cleric/MT. So much for trading power for more spells.
The class is certainly not broken. It's probably one of the weakest PrCs in print without abusing secondary sources (things like the Sublime Ur-Theurge).
I'll disagree that it's a weak class. It has lots of good uses, and people that can't find a good way to use lower levels spells even when nineth level spells are available just aren't trying.
Giving up levels in one class does hurt but it is a hurt that can be mitagiated by intelligent play. So your DC's are lower, don't choose as many SoD spells, and when you do take them choose ones in your better class. Look to metamagic rods to help with spell duration, and choose spells that have alternate uses (as always) or that cap for some reason (ray of enfeeblement is just as nice coming from a mystic theurge as it is from a necromancer). Decide if you are going to mainly focus in one class and use the other classes spells to compliment what you have in the other class.
Be particular about your feats. Some help both classes, others don't. Spell penetration is useful in both classes, as is combat casting, and spell focus. Metamagic feats might not be your thing, but crafting magic items could be easier for you since you have more spell access. Point blank shot and Precise shot might be good choices since several of the lead in classes have nice rays and ranged touch attack spells that don't require maximized caster levels.
Race is important too. A dwarf works well due to his stat boosts for a wizard/cleric, and a half elf is nice for any multi classer. Halfling will help with the save throws and AC, as well as being a good choice for a sorcerer lead in. Elf grants a bonus on penetration and gives Dex and Int being an excellent choice for wizard lead ins.
Carefully consider choices you have to make about classes that you use to enter into the mystic theurge class. Don't grab a bunch of ray spell like abilities, if they aren't going to do as much damage. Diviner (for wizards) will help your Init which is always good, while Transmuters can boost their dex a little (or con) and abjurers get some energy resistance.
The class is certainly not broken. It's probably one of the weakest PrCs in print without abusing secondary sources (things like the Sublime Ur-Theurge).
Ogre...
(...looks at Arcane Archer)(...looks at chronicler)
(...looks at Shadow Dancer)
(...looks at arcane trickster...)
(...looks at Eldritch Knight...)
Maybe you're reading a different book from me? It's far, far from the weakest.
In particular when you consider that 5/5/10 is not a very good Theurge build. I don't think it's more powerful than a straight wizard or cleric by a long shot but of the multi class caster classes it's decent.
I would probably go 3 wiz/ 3 cleric/ 10 MT then top off with wizard or cleric based on my preferences which gives you 17 levels of one class and lets you cast 9th level spells.
Mystic Theurge gets much better when there is a second +1 caster / + 1 caster class out there (for example the True Necromancer). I'll agree that playing through being a -3 caster level is, not great.
Mystic Theurges also make excellent item creators.