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Barbarians can end their rage as a free action.
Barbarians can enter their rage as a free action unless they are fatigued or exhausted.
At 17th level, the barbarian no longer gets fatigued after ending his rage.
A 20th level barbarian has over 40 rounds of rage per day.
The rage power 'strength surge' allows the barbarian to add his barbarian level on a strength or CMB check. It's an immediate action usuable once per rage.
So, is there any rule against a barbarian entering rage, using strength surge to autotrip his opponent with his heavy flail, still getting a full attack against the tripped foe through greater trip, endig his rage at the end of his turn and doing all of this each round?
With a CMB of ~+55, there shouldn't be that many nonflying opponents immune to this tactic, especially medium sized.
Actually, I don't see why you couldn't enter/end range multiple times per round if its a free action, provided that you're willing to spend multiple rounds of rage.
Edit: But, since most range powers are a swift or immediate action (i.e. 1/round), there's no reason to. Nevermind then.
You are right, though. It seems as though, at 17th level, most "once/rage" limitations evaporate.
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No, you didn't break him.
It also wouldn't work the way you are thinking... the bar bwould only get one attack after the trip (assuming he has improved and great trip feats) not a full attack.
It would still count as a round of rage, so if you are thinking that you are able to turn it on/off during the barb's action that it doesn't reduce the # of uses you are mistaken.
Don't you get only one free action per turn?
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No, you didn't break him.
It also wouldn't work the way you are thinking... the bar bwould only get one attack after the trip (assuming he has improved and great trip feats) not a full attack.
It would still count as a round of rage, so if you are thinking that you are able to turn it on/off during the barb's action that it doesn't reduce the # of uses you are mistaken.
Actually, if he used the trip as the first part of his full attack he'd get the rest against the prone foe.
And this is being proposed because Strength Surge (add your Barbarian level to a Strength check or CMB/CMD) is a 1/rage ability. I'd personally rule that continuous rounds of rage count as one rage for those powers, but that's not supported by the core rules.
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@ Toyrobots. No, that's swift/immediate actions. Free actions are, well, free.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
No, you didn't break him.
It also wouldn't work the way you are thinking... the bar bwould only get one attack after the trip (assuming he has improved and great trip feats) not a full attack.
It would still count as a round of rage, so if you are thinking that you are able to turn it on/off during the barb's action that it doesn't reduce the # of uses you are mistaken.
Yes, he still uses a round of rage per round.
But the point is that a.) By ending his rage at the end of his turn he doesn't really suffer the AC penalty, and b.) He can use once-per-rage powers every round because each round is another rage.
My houserule, if anyone is curious, is that a character who ends rage still has to stay out of rage for the same number of rounds as before. He just isn't actually fatigued for that time.
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Don't you get only one free action per turn?
You can get as many free actions as you want, although there are certain free actions that can be used only once per round.
You get only one swift/immediate action, but entering/ending rage isn't one.No, you didn't break him.
It also wouldn't work the way you are thinking... the bar bwould only get one attack after the trip (assuming he has improved and great trip feats) not a full attack.
It would still count as a round of rage, so if you are thinking that you are able to turn it on/off during the barb's action that it doesn't reduce the # of uses you are mistaken.
Isn't it possible to use trip as part of a full attack?
And I'm well aware that those rounds still count, it's just that the number should be sufficient to dominate a number of fights per day.
Yeah, I think I was thinking Shadowrun 3rd. Might be wrong about that too.
Thanks for the clarification, everyone.
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But the point is that a.) By ending his rage at the end of his turn he doesn't really suffer the AC penalty, and b.) He can use once-per-rage powers every round because each round is another rage.
If you rage, it lasts for the rest of the whole round. you cannot rage for only part of a round. Otherwise, no barbarian would ever incur the AC penalty.
If you rage for 3 rounds in a row that is one continuous rage, even if you try to say "I end my rage each round". Unless you actually take a round not raging, it is one rage.Period.
Anyone who tries to "cheat" around balancing penalties should have a ten-ton block of stone dropped on their character. Okay, maybe that sounds harsh, but it keeps my players on their toes and looking up.
I really don't see what the problem is with doing something like this.
Does anybody actually think giving up your ability to use your Instantaneous and extended duration Rage Abilities (like making AoOs when opponents ENTER Threat Area, boosting your CMD when needed, re-rolling Will Saves, Superstitious Bonus vs. Magic, Rolling Dodge, etc) NOT TO MENTION the automatic Rage Bonus to Will Saves is a GOOD exchange for a measly +2 AC bump (at 17th level)!?!? A good number of the better Rage Powers are only used "outside of your turn"!
The O.P.'s example of course only kicks in a 17th level, but similar (but more limited) strategies can be used with the Rage Power letting you re-enter Rage while still Fatigued (when you end the 2nd Rage, you are Exhausted), or with an ally who can remove Fatigue effects (blowing THEIR action). All such strategies, while situationally useful, still suffer the same trade-offs I alluded too.
I don't think a reasonable DM should allow this, as it twists the rules for a weird benefit.
The beta version of the rules had this as a once per minute rule. I feel that this ability (and others like it) weren't supposed to be used more than once per rage or minute.
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There's no rule saying that the barbarian has to rage for at least one round.
The barbarian also doesn't need to be of 17th level to do this as there are items like the armor of the unending hunt from Complete Warrior which grant immunity to exhaustion and fatigue.
And it's not only a +2 on AC you gain, it's also an enormous bonus on CMB checks once per round.
If the character would want to keep things like indomitable will, he would have no problem to do so. He'd just end his rage at the beginning of his turn to start again it immediately afterwards.
And it's not that I'd like such exploits. If one of my players would propose something that ridiculous, I'd probably just ask him to stop doing such stupid things. Not that my players would try something like that, anyway.
A solution might be making entering rage an immediate action. That way, barbarians would be able to rage even if it's not their turn, but on the other hand it would reduce the usefulness of such On/Off rages.
Or just remove the 'once per rage' limit of rage powers and instead just tone down their bonuses.
Those 'once per rage' powers just encourage barbarians to use microrages instead of raging the whole fight.
There's no rule saying that the barbarian has to rage for at least one round.
"Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier."
The first rule in the entire rage power description defines rage duration to have a base unit of 'rounds'.|
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"Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier."
The first rule in the entire rage power description defines rage duration to have a base unit of 'rounds'.
So do many spells which still end as soon as they are dismissed. Which would be done as a free action in case of a rage instead of a standard action. But a spellcaster could certainly cast a quickened dismissable spell as a swift action and end it as a standard action at the end of his turn. That would be a rather stupid and wasteful thing to do in most cases, but there's no rule against doing so.
Nowhere does it state 'The barbarian may end the rage as a free action if at least one round has passed since he started it'.And even if this would be the rule as written, it wouldn't stop the barbarian from starting a rage on his turn, using his once per rage power, ending the rage on his next turn, starting a new one and using the same rage power again.
The limitation of rage powers being only usable once per rage simply breaks as soon as the barbarian doesn't get fatigued anymore. Which certainly happens at 17th level but also much earlier with the right tricks.
But the point is that a.) By ending his rage at the end of his turn he doesn't really suffer the AC penalty, and b.) He can use once-per-rage powers every round because each round is another rage.
If you rage, it lasts for the rest of the whole round. you cannot rage for only part of a round. Otherwise, no barbarian would ever incur the AC penalty.
If you rage for 3 rounds in a row that is one continuous rage, even if you try to say "I end my rage each round". Unless you actually take a round not raging, it is one rage.
Period.
Anyone who tries to "cheat" around balancing penalties should have a ten-ton block of stone dropped on their character. Okay, maybe that sounds harsh, but it keeps my players on their toes and looking up.
I general, I try to implement houserules so that the rules of my game are actually in accordance with my will, rather than rapping my players' knuckles with a ruler for trying to do something that the high-end class feature they just got should clearly allow.
I really don't see what the problem is with doing something like this.
Does anybody actually think giving up your ability to use your Instantaneous and extended duration Rage Abilities (like making AoOs when opponents ENTER Threat Area, boosting your CMD when needed, re-rolling Will Saves, Superstitious Bonus vs. Magic, Rolling Dodge, etc) NOT TO MENTION the automatic Rage Bonus to Will Saves is a GOOD exchange for a measly +2 AC bump (at 17th level)!?!? A good number of the better Rage Powers are only used "outside of your turn"!
The O.P.'s example of course only kicks in a 17th level, but similar (but more limited) strategies can be used with the Rage Power letting you re-enter Rage while still Fatigued (when you end the 2nd Rage, you are Exhausted), or with an ally who can remove Fatigue effects (blowing THEIR action). All such strategies, while situationally useful, still suffer the same trade-offs I alluded too.
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...a spellcaster could certainly cast a quickened dismissable spell as a swift action and end it as a standard action at the end of his turn. That would be a rather stupid and wasteful thing to do in most cases, but there's no rule against doing so.
Actually, this has its uses in conjunction with readied actions. You could cast an environmental spell such as Darkness using a quickened action, just before your opponents act, and then ready a standard action to dismiss the spell immediately afterwards. This only works once since your initiative will shift behind the opponents, but it has its uses nontheless.
I don't think a reasonable DM should allow this, as it twists the rules for a weird benefit.
To be fair, most abuses in 3.5 stemmed by using RAW (Rules as written) rather than RAI (Rules as intended). Pun Pun, Divine Metamagic + nightsticks, the King of Smack, all work around the rules rather than with them, expolioting loop-holes or using rules not intended to interact with each other.
Well, duh.
No one writes rules intending for them to be broken. =p
And it's not only a +2 on AC you gain, it's also an enormous bonus on CMB checks once per round.
I think you're confusing my point slightly,
the "+2 AC" is the relative advantage of NOT being in Rage, as Rage suffers an AC penalty.Of course, at high levels, Rolling Dodge (+whatever the melee version is called) can more than counter this.
(though with an action tax of 1 Move Action/ <normal CON Bonus> rounds)
If the character would want to keep things like indomitable will, he would have no problem to do so. He'd just end his rage at the beginning of his turn to start again it immediately afterwards.
Right, this is switching around the trade-off:
Re-starting Rage in subsequent rounds either sacrifices Defensive benefits of Rage (if you want to use Offensive Rage Powers), or sacrifices Offensive benefits (if you want to use Defensive Benefits). So sure, you can get around the 1/rage limitation for certain Powers this way, but you're still making a trade-off.Those 'once per rage' powers just encourage barbarians to use microrages instead of raging the whole fight.
Or rather, the benefits of using once/rage powers more often are perhaps enough to persuade some to make a signifigant Rage Power/ (non-Core) Equipment/ "other" investment to enable such tactics, even though they will unavoidably give up roughly half the benefits of Rage whenever they use this tactic, even with their investment.
I find it bizarre that non-Core equipment combined with the RAW would be cited as "breaking" play, but instead of simply not using such "problematic" non-Core equipment (which isn't allowed in PFS organized play... likewise I've never used Divine Metamagic), it's claimed that the functioning of the Core rules must be changed.
PFS organized play IS run 100% according to Core Rules, which contains nothing prohibiting this.
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I think you're confusing my point slightly,
the "+2 AC" is the relative advantage of NOT being in Rage, as Rage suffers an AC penalty.
Of course, at high levels, Rolling Dodge (+whatever the melee version is called) can more than counter this.
(though with an action tax of 1 Move Action/ <CON Bonus> rounds)
Guarded Stance. And their use is questionable. Barbarians will probably use a medium armor to retain their fast movement (or a light to actually profit from it) and no shield to use their two-handed weapon, so their AC will be quite low anyway. Limiting yourself to one attack every few rounds might not be the best thing to do. Even if his constitution modifier were great enough for those powers to last the whole combat, it would still be two rounds of standard attacks.
Right, this is switching around the trade-off:
Re-starting Rage in subsequent rounds either sacrifices Defensive benefits of Rage (if you want to use Offensive Rage Powers), or sacrifices Offensive benefits (if you want to use Defensive Benefits). So sure, you can get around the 1/rage limitation for certain Powers this way, but you're still making a trade-off.I find it bizarre that non-Core equipment combined with the RAW would be cited as "breaking" play, but instead of simply not using such "problematic" non-Core equipment (which isn't allowed in PFS organized play... likewise I've never used Divine Metamagic), it's claimed that the functioning of the Core rules must be changed.
PFS organized play IS run 100% according to Core Rules, which does allow this.
Seems fair, but even in core there are possibilities for a barbarian to gain immunitiy to fatigue and exhaustian (like being undead).
I'm not in favour of this exploit. It rather annoys me. I would have prefered all the powers that are now 'usable once per rage' to be reduced in scope (like strength surge only granting half the character level as a bonus or even less) but available each round as a swift or immediate action.The limitation on some rage powers simply stops working at a certain point. This might be deliberate, but if it isn't, the rules should either be clarified or changed.
It's pretty clear to me that this is entirely deliberate.
Having every Rage Power use Swift/Immediate Actions means they can't be combined together as much as the current approach. The current approach also means that instantaneously 'maxing out' by combining Swift + Immediate, or Immediate + 1/round, means your NEXT round will have less options, either from an Instantaneous Action blowing your next Swift Action, or (like the topic of this thread) making a trade-off which will drop either your offensive (on-turn) or defensive (off-turn) suite. I would say this zero-sum aspect, with some flexibility in time-frame ("borrowing from future rounds"), is now "the" core mechanic of the Barbarian class.
BTW: I see other posters with threads saying they see no reason to take more than 4-8 levels of Barbarian (vs. Fighter levels). So having some 'combo' which actually synergizes and works hardly seems a horrible thing to me. /shrugm
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BTW: I see other posters with threads saying they see no reason to take more than 4-8 levels of Barbarian (vs. Fighter levels). So having some 'combo' which actually synergizes and works hardly seems a horrible thing to me. /shrug
According to the rules, there are no 'on' or 'off' turns. The barbarians starts his rage at the beginning of his rage and ends it at its end. He uses no swift actions, only one immediate (strength surge). His other actions include entering rage (free action), full attack (full round action), attack of opportunity (free action) and ending rage (another free action).
This whole concept has another merit I hadn't thought about. Attacks of opportunity are made at the full attack bonus while trip attempts can be made anytime as part of a full attack. So, with a +20 bonus on CMB checks, the barbarian might still get an autosucces if he trips as the second or even third part of his cascade, thus trading an attack with a lowered bonus in for one on his full bonus.Concerning the other point, yes the barbarian is underpowered. But in my opinion, this isn't mitigated by suddenly gaining access to RAW exploits. A class should be worthwile all the time.
It also doesn't help that Mighty Rage is one of the worst level 20 abilities in the game.
+2 Strength is at best +1 to hit and +2 to damage (out of combat, it's irrelevant since powers like strength surge grant a +20 on one strength check at this point).
A 20th level rogue gets the ability to kill with his sneak attacks.
A 20th level bard gets the ability to kill with his songs.
A 20th level barbarian becomes slightly stronger while raging.
I guess we can both agree that Mighty Rage @ 20th is extremely anti-climactic :-)
IMHO, the Rage STR/CON Bonus could easily have been accelerated (granting Mighty Rage's bonus at earlier levels) and extended by an extra Tier or even 2 (maxing out at higher Morale Bonus to STR/CON). As is, Endless Rage @ 17th is really the best reason not to multi-class to Fighter past the 14th level (at most, 16th level) of Barbarian, and there really isn't much reason to take Barbarian past 17th level. (Of course, further Rage Powers are planned for the Adv. PHB and maybe other products as well, so those will likely include more good high level Rage Powers)
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The Pathfinder barbarian is a rather strange class. He despite him getting a -2 penalty on AC, his main advantage over the fighter are his defensive capabilities.
Most of the defensive abilities are fine, immunity to certain conditions, better saves, increased damage reduction and similar abilities. Most of those rage powers don't even need an action and are on all the time a barbarian is raging.
His offensive abilities, on the other hand, nearly all need either a swift or immediate actions and are also usable only once per rage. Which increases the need for micro rages.
And while it might seem strange, the barbarian is now mostly a defensive class.
The rage point system had some serious problems, but the way the barbarian is now, he seems rather weak, especially in comparison to fighters, paladins and rangers.
Powerful blow might have some use in conjunction with spirited charge, but all of this just seems contradictory to the stuff a raging barbarian should do (which isn't microraging and autotripping).