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Under Elf and Half-Elf the notice secret doors ability has gone, but on p414 Secret doors it states "Elves have a chance to detect a secret door just by looking at it".
Which is correct?
The beta rule text for secret doors under Elves has been removed.
They've put a lot of class and race skill "bonuses" under the descriptions of the skills instead of the race and class.
Basically an Elf does not need to "search", i.e. state that they are using a perception check. The GM rolls one secretly for them whenever they are "looking" at a secret door, so they could know about the secret door automatically.
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http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/skills/perception.html#perception
it mentions the racial bonus, but still is missing the auto-magic qualifier for elves.
You're right, its under the secret doors description, on page 414.
"Elves have a chance to detect a secret door just by casually looking at an area."
It doesn't say what that chance is though. Is this covered in the errata?
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You're right, its under the secret doors description, on page 414.
"Elves have a chance to detect a secret door just by casually looking at an area."
It doesn't say what that chance is though. Is this covered in the errata?
The 'chance' is that they are allowed to roll a Perception check to locate the door without needing to state that they are actually looking for it. So the chance of them finding it depends on their Perception skill, and how well hidden the door is.
I have to say, that's a really annoying way to write/organize the rules. When I read through the race chapter, I thought this had been removed. Spreading the rules for any particular unit (race/class) over several chapters is a sure-fire way to confuse a lot of people. I was happy to see the cleric and wizard schools pulled into the classes the chapter, though.
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I have to say, that's a really annoying way to write/organize the rules. When I read through the race chapter, I thought this had been removed. Spreading the rules for any particular unit (race/class) over several chapters is a sure-fire way to confuse a lot of people. I was happy to see the cleric and wizard schools pulled into the classes the chapter, though.
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing it was done this way to put it more firmly in the hands of the GM to keep track of rather than having the players drag the elf through rooms to see if the gm starts rolling dice. Perhaps trying to make it a less obvious choice.
You also might notice that it doesn't state in the elf entry that they are particulary immune to the paralyzing attacks of ghouls, but it does state it under the ghouls entry.
I have to say, that's a really annoying way to write/organize the rules. When I read through the race chapter, I thought this had been removed. Spreading the rules for any particular unit (race/class) over several chapters is a sure-fire way to confuse a lot of people. I was happy to see the cleric and wizard schools pulled into the classes the chapter, though.I could be wrong, but I'm guessing it was done this way to put it more firmly in the hands of the GM to keep track of rather than having the players drag the elf through rooms to see if the gm starts rolling dice. Perhaps trying to make it a less obvious choice.
You also might notice that it doesn't state in the elf entry that they are particulary immune to the paralyzing attacks of ghouls, but it does state it under the ghouls entry.
I thought dwarves stole this secret door spotting ability with their stone cunning
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I have to say, that's a really annoying way to write/organize the rules. When I read through the race chapter, I thought this had been removed. Spreading the rules for any particular unit (race/class) over several chapters is a sure-fire way to confuse a lot of people. I was happy to see the cleric and wizard schools pulled into the classes the chapter, though.I could be wrong, but I'm guessing it was done this way to put it more firmly in the hands of the GM to keep track of rather than having the players drag the elf through rooms to see if the gm starts rolling dice. Perhaps trying to make it a less obvious choice.
You also might notice that it doesn't state in the elf entry that they are particulary immune to the paralyzing attacks of ghouls, but it does state it under the ghouls entry.
This is undestandable, but it adds (a bit there, a bit here) to the memory workload of the GM, and makes a number of game elements such as these race related bonuses somewhat easy to overlook.
I'd rather have a player with an elf character that wades in combat against undead ghouls with some added hubris rather than having to remember myself each and every time the racial immunity (OK, this is a well-known ability so it makes for a poor example, but the concept is the same for other stuff).
Under Elf and Half-Elf the notice secret doors ability has gone, but on p414 Secret doors it states "Elves have a chance to detect a secret door just by looking at it".
Which is correct?
The beta rule text for secret doors under Elves has been removed.
This should really be under the racial traits section.
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So, you're assuming that the beta rule still holds? It doesn't actually say that. The "chance" is undefined in the rulebook.
An alternate explanation is that this text was mistakenly left in after the elvish ability was removed.
This needs to be cleared up in the errata.
The 'chance' is that they are allowed to roll a Perception check to locate the door without needing to state that they are actually looking for it. So the chance of them finding it depends on their Perception skill, and how well hidden the door is.You're right, its under the secret doors description, on page 414.
"Elves have a chance to detect a secret door just by casually looking at an area."
It doesn't say what that chance is though. Is this covered in the errata?
I thought the elf's "secret door radar sense" was deliberately deleted. But now that you point out that it still mentions it elsewhere, I'm confused. :-/
Sloppy editing again; why the surprise? I'd guess that it the ability was removed, mention of it deleted from the races, and then no one bothered to do a check to see if it was mentioned elsewhere.
Sloppy editing again; why the surprise? I'd guess that it the ability was removed, mention of it deleted from the races, and then no one bothered to do a check to see if it was mentioned elsewhere.
Cue Sean K Reynolds's rebuttal: "Hey, so we deleted every occurrence of the letter 'e' from the entire book -- what about the 25 letters that we got right? That's a 96% success rate!!"
;-) (Just kidding...)
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I also agree that the elf "secret door sense" should be considered done away with. I never really liked it, because it didn't fit with the serotype of the elf that the game presented. If elves are spposed to be a bunch of nature oving tree hugging hippies that live in harmony with the world around them and evn "grow" their buildings from living trees and bushes, it doesn't mke sense that they can be so in tune with manmade construction as to detect hidden doors. Dwarves always seemed like the more logical choice for that ability in my mind.
I've never liked it as a DM, because in any room where I have a secret door, I have to give the elves a chance to spot it, at which point all the other players start coming up with a reason for their own characters to search due to OOC reasons.
There's also also a question of what's "secret" and what's "discreetly concealed." If all elves have this ability, I'd imagine it's a nightmare for non-elven visitors to figure out where they hid the chamberpot.
I've never liked it as a DM, because in any room where I have a secret door, I have to give the elves a chance to spot it, at which point all the other players start coming up with a reason for their own characters to search due to OOC reasons.
There's also also a question of what's "secret" and what's "discreetly concealed." If all elves have this ability, I'd imagine it's a nightmare for non-elven visitors to figure out where they hid the chamberpot.
Firstly I'll address the second part (I'm just that way) and say I LOVE that idea thank you for having it.
Secondly (this is your first part) why in the heck did you let them roll it? Every book since there actually were books points out that as a DM you should make these sorts of rolls.
Even better do it behind a screen, so they don't know what you are rolling... it could be an attack roll, the spot check or nothing at all.
I like to let players be in charge of their own rolls. That way it doesn't seem arbitrary when something happens.
And secretly rolling behind a DM screen gets in the way of narrative flow. I prefer to drop my hints in in the course of description, and if players pick up on these, then they get to roll.
I like to let players be in charge of their own rolls. That way it doesn't seem arbitrary when something happens.
And secretly rolling behind a DM screen gets in the way of narrative flow. I prefer to drop my hints in in the course of description, and if players pick up on these, then they get to roll.
Not just for the sake of arguing but I point out at that point you are rewarding players not their characters. If one player has a better wisdom score and perception skill he'll hear that and ask for a roll... if the one who's character should be rolling that check didn't catch your 'hint' then he won't when his character should be making the check.
Not saying that simple random rolling behind the screen is always the best solution, however in some cases it is an appropriate (and by the book even) answer.
A fun thing to do is occasionally roll a d20 behind the screen, peer at your notes, and then carry on as if nothing happened.
Keeps them on their toes.
A fun thing to do is occasionally roll a d20 behind the screen, peer at your notes, and then carry on as if nothing happened.
Keeps them on their toes.
This is what I do with my last group when I needed time to think. I've noticed that if I simply stop to think the players often will start chatting and with the last group I had not even Asmodeus himself could get them back on track, but grabbing a bunch of dice, rolling aimlessly behind the screen and going "hmm" kept them all attentive. Then I'd smile at them and continue the game.
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I agree an official rules ruling on this is vital. I was of the opinion that elves had lost the 'secret door' ability but now i'm not so sure. It is quite possible that it was accidently left in later in the book, these things happen. No biggie as nobody is perfect. Considering the great job they did overall i'm more than willing to let a few things go.
I agree an official rules ruling on this is vital.
I agree with your agreement, an erratum is necessary. As an aside, I sometimes ask my dwarf/elf PCs to roll their "secret" checks, sometimes I roll them myself, and sometimes I ask the PCs to make extraneous/unnecessary checks to keep them on their toes. In all cases I remind players that there is no way for the PCs to know what the players intuit from the numbers on the dice.
Zo
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The dwarves' similar Stonecunning ability is listed under the racial abilities while the elves' is not.
The only mention I can find in the PRD of this ability is a single, very non-crunchy sentence under the secret doors entry in the environment section.
These two things combined make me want to err on the side of "the ability should be eliminated."
Also, I just hate elven door-radar so damn much. It is an extremely silly piece of flavor, and it is a legacy from days of yore when almost every single adventure was entirely underground in some inexplicable dungeon complex riddled with secret doors and traps. Not that that's a bad adventure set-up, but it was the default, and racial/class abilities were based around that environment, even if they didn't make very much sense. "Bend Bars" anyone?
I really like the idea that elves do not have it. It just does not fit the flavor of elf. I like the added magic stuff they tossed into them thou allot more.
Given that it is not in the errata to remove the reference to elves and secret doors, and it is still on the PSRD site as well as in the updated Core PDF, I don't think that the intention is to remove the ability from elves.
I think that the logic to leave the reference with secret doors, because the elf player doesn't do anything utilize the ability. Just like the elf immunity to ghoul paralysis is only referenced in the ghoul entry.
As it stands, it does say somewhere in the rules that they get the ability, which means, RAW elves have the ability until its mentioned in the errata. While people can clearly houserule this if they like it better without the ability in the game, if you are running a Pathfinder Society game, elves have the ability until further notice.
While we have no official word yet, that I know of, I think the practical thing to do here is to ask which is more likely:
A. In an effort to balance the races, the decision was made to remove this ability, so the entry was removed from the spot where everyone knew to look for it (the elven racial abilities). Note the fact that it was removed from at least two places in the elven race (the paragraph tht explains the ability as well as the bullet list that summaries all the abilities into a single list). However, nobody remembered to remove mention of this ability from other rules deep in the book.
B. In the process of copying and editing text from the 3.5 and/or Pathfinder Beta rules, someone accidentally left out the ability from both places in the elven racial description. This was purely an accident despite the seeming surgical precision to remove exactly both references to it without removing anything else. This oversight was missed by all the in-house editors and play testers before the book went to press.
Now, it seems to me that option A is the more likely of the two scenarios. I just don't buy the possibility that they accidentally removed two references to this ability at the same time and nobody caught the mistake.
And secretly rolling behind a DM screen gets in the way of narrative flow. I prefer to drop my hints in in the course of description, and if players pick up on these, then they get to roll.
Just roll a bunch of d20 before the game, note the results down, and when you need to secretly roll for the players, just pick the next one in the list.
Plus, if the intent was to get rid of GMs having to roll secret perception checks for the players, they went right back into that by giving rogues a talent that lets you auto detect traps, which has the same pitfalls as auto detecting secret doors.
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Unlike a lot of people, I actually think the ability to detect secret doors fits with the elf flavor.
Raliquien put the book down again. Something was wrong. The air did not move right in the room; the flow of natural energy was somehow stiffer than normal. Walking along the wall of books revealed nothing out of the ordinary; just a feeling that there was something more. Keen senses picked up on a flutter of spiderweb, a barely perceptible breath of air. There was something here!
Not just for the sake of arguing but I point out at that point you are rewarding players not their characters. If one player has a better wisdom score and perception skill he'll hear that and ask for a roll... if the one who's character should be rolling that check didn't catch your 'hint' then he won't when his character should be making the check.
Not saying that simple random rolling behind the screen is always the best solution, however in some cases it is an appropriate (and by the book even) answer.
Honestly, I find this particular argument tiresome. If a player picks up on clues that I drop, or thinks up something particularly clever, I'm happy to let them run with it. Characters living in a world with life and death situations would be racking their brains daily, so I have no problem granting them whatever it is that a bunch of gamers think up in three hours sitting around a table.
I also give lots of XP for roleplaying, which is something that the system has never really covered.
If the ideia is to upgrade the game, I don't think that any iconic racial ability should be removed. Finding secret doors is one of the oldest abilities of the elves, just like meditating instead of sleeping. Changing that, you change the concept of the race, and that is a huge changing in the game itself.
I think that taking away an image formed about the elves and the game would displease a lot of people, including me.
A fun thing to do is occasionally roll a d20 behind the screen, peer at your notes, and then carry on as if nothing happened.
Keeps them on their toes.
Its even more fun to get the players to make a roll then carry on as if nothing happened!
Not just for the sake of arguing but I point out at that point you are rewarding players not their characters. If one player has a better wisdom score and perception skill he'll hear that and ask for a roll... if the one who's character should be rolling that check didn't catch your 'hint' then he won't when his character should be making the check.
Not saying that simple random rolling behind the screen is always the best solution, however in some cases it is an appropriate (and by the book even) answer.
Honestly, I find this particular argument tiresome. If a player picks up on clues that I drop, or thinks up something particularly clever, I'm happy to let them run with it. Characters living in a world with life and death situations would be racking their brains daily, so I have no problem granting them whatever it is that a bunch of gamers think up in three hours sitting around a table.
I also give lots of XP for roleplaying, which is something that the system has never really covered.
You can tire of it all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it is true (almost a reversed Stormwind actually). We have many people come through our gaming group and several of them... are so quick, if we forced them to constantly rely on their own wits to figure out when they needed to roll then they would never roll.
It is not the player that should be 'tested' with skills checks, it is the character. The player doesn't have the experience or life of the character and therefore can't completely know what the character should or shouldn't know, or how to apply that knowledge.
You don't say "Well since you can't use a sword then your fighter can't either" so why say, "Well you didn't pick up on the fact you should make a check there, so your rogue doesn't either."
It's fallacious to think that it's to not do the first but let the later go through without a problem.
A heck of a lot of it is handwavium. For example, in the adventure I just ran for my players (my own design, not a module), there was an old monastery with a bunch of monks doing various challenges to see if there was anyone worthy to take on the legendary chimara in the caverns beneath the monastery. Players joked a lot about what the monks were going to do once the chimera was dead, since then they'd be out of a job, but what they hadn't realized was that the monks were already dead, sort of, since the whole place was a sort of Brigadoon/Flying Dutchman trope with the monks kept there by their oath until someone slew the chimera.
The players were pretty darn clever about it, but after the chimera died, six hundred years caught up with the monastery, including the brass wiring inside the carefully weighted and balanced stone doors. Now so much verdegris, the characters were now entombed with the dead chimera.
Of course, a month or so ago, in another game session, the party had captured and interrogated the medusa and had asked her where she got her food down in the dungeon, to which she answered "Oh, from the Magic Cabinet!" which they were very amused to find to be a dumbwaiter leading to the monastery upstairs.
This was also a clue, and when the characters found themselves trapped, one of the players remembered the clue from sessions before and cried out, in character, "Wait! The dumbwaiter!" and they all ran off to find it.
The player remembering this clue saved me from having them do a bunch of Search and Perception checks, and the players were all happy, so I had no trouble with them moving on past that and on to the next scene. And after having the rogues do a couple Climb checks to get up the shaft of the disused dumbwaiter (the ropes had long ago rotten and even the box was eaten by wood worms), I let them rig up a rope sling and let them haul the rest of everyone out.
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James Jacobs, Jason Bulmahn and the Paizo staff are usually very quick to clear up rule descrepancies like these. I'm really surprised that nobody has come on to this thread yet to clarify the matter.
I'm tending to lean towards not letting the Elf have the ability but i would like to know if i'm right. Come on guys we need your input on this, PLEEEAAASSSEEEE.
Under the elf racial traits on page 22 there are no listings for this trait. The reference later in the rules is an artifact that needs to be removed in a future errata update.
From the Pathfinder Society FAQ thread. Looks like you guys were correct, so I will cease to roll this check for my elves.
So all of you who say they still have this ability, and this wasn't a huge oversight on the writer's/editor's side, and that the elves now seem to have lost nothing but gained two new abilities.
If this were true, I think I would have lost faith in the abilities of the writers of this game. However, that said, I know this can't possibly be true.
Yes this particular problem has been identified in the errata now. The errata now says "Page 414—In the Doors section, under Secret Doors, remove the last sentence of the first paragraph."
The sentence in question says "Elves have a chance to detect
a secret door just by casually looking at an area."
So Elves NO LONGER have the chance to detect secret doors that they used to have.
Under Elf and Half-Elf the notice secret doors ability has gone, but on p414 Secret doors it states "Elves have a chance to detect a secret door just by looking at it".
Which is correct?
The beta rule text for secret doors under Elves has been removed.
Just do it the way you want to do. Talk to your GM and plead your case, or if you are the GM you make the decesion. The rules are not "set in stone" they are guidelines to spurn imagination. Pathfinder was created to share the Dungeons and Dragons Experience, not take it over... although it appears that is starting to happen by sheer volume of the people who like the adaptation of Pathfinder better. In my games Elves and Half Elves have the ability to find secret doors old school style. Just like msot Dwarves can detect sliding passages and new construction. House Rules and the GM prevail over anything someone else printed in a book.
