I have seen paladins of Kelemvor before, he is a LN god of death. They are very effective undead hunters.Wasn't Kelemvor a paladin himself, before attaining divinity?
I actually played such a paladin before. Had to keep the fact that his wife had arisen as a ghost from his order. A lot of fun, that game.
Kelemvor was a fighter. I'm thinking a Paladin who keeps a secret from his order like that might have alignment issues, I suppose he might not but boy that would be a tough one.
|
Fine give me a quote.
The ONLY spot that a divine link is mentioned is the Divine Bond and the Holy Champion class abilities.
No where does it say, "A paladin must have a god."
You are making something out of thin air on the pretext that something is casually mentioned in two separate and minor class abilities.
Lets see shall we
1. "paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. "
2."Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed."
3."At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. '
That seems to be 3 times it says it that is just 2 times less then the cleric. So yeah it does say that as clear as the cleric does. Except the cleric stats a small number do not have a god, paladin does not state this.
You forgot pg 30
"The paladin is the knight in shining armor, a devoted follower of law and good." as opposed to the cleric's
"A devout follower of a deity, the cleric can heal wounds, raise the dead, and call down the wrath of the gods."
SDo not have the book yet useing the PRD. However paladins must be LG so yes that is true, however it still says 3 time you serve a god. Unlike a cleric who does not always have such a strict code of conduct on top of that
|
|
Kelemvor was a fighter. I'm thinking a Paladin who keeps a secret from his order like that might have alignment issues, I suppose he might not but boy that would be a tough one.I have seen paladins of Kelemvor before, he is a LN god of death. They are very effective undead hunters.Wasn't Kelemvor a paladin himself, before attaining divinity?
I actually played such a paladin before. Had to keep the fact that his wife had arisen as a ghost from his order. A lot of fun, that game.
Why? Just because the Paladin's wife came back to see him doesn't mean that he has alignment issues. So long as he continues to serve the higher good, and whatever laws he's personally sworn to uphold. (whether or not they are in agreement with the laws of his order)
Now that might have interfered with his code of conduct... but that's different from alignment.
Why? Just because the Paladin's wife came back to see him doesn't mean that he has alignment issues. So long as he continues to serve the higher good, and whatever laws he's personally sworn to uphold. (whether or not they are in agreement with the laws of his order)
I agree he did not violate his code, just his more zealous comrades interpretation of it. In FR there are good undead as there are evil ones. But what he should have done was reach out to the church for atonement, and see where it went. She may have not been killed but maybe she would have been put to rest. Kelemor believes all things have a time and should moev past this life there after. However is something was keeping her here then it was the place of the order to fix that and allow her to move on.
But it still doesn't say he has to. Doesn't say he loses his abilities if he doesn't, and while I did point out the two cases in two class abilities, that doesn't mean a deity is required.
serving =/= worshiping. I could serve you french fries all day and not worship you, I can serve you in battle and not lift up pray to you.
If simply mentioning something in a class ability means that you must follow that completely to be the class in question:
"A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment"
Spontaneous Casting doesn't state that a neutral cleric without a deity gains the ability so they must not get it right?
So obviously a cleric must have a deity, since two different class features say so, and that's enough for the paladin! It even says clerics have deities in the fluff in front of the mechanics!
******
If all other divine casters can choose not to have a deity I don't see any reason or indeed any rule were a paladin must do so.
*****
EDIT:
My opinion is that your argument would be like me saying, "Well the Fire Domain says that my flesh does not burn so I never take fire damage!"
or "Luck domain says I'm infused with luck and my mere presence spreads good fortune so everyone must roll better if I'm around!"
or "Madness domain states I can sacrifice certain abilities to hone others so I can trade channel energy for smite evil!"
So yeah Your god, grants you power"like a cleric" but you don't serve them..sorry no. Your using a meaning to the word serve they did not mean to find a loophole.
Now it is your game if you choose to allow them without a god more power to you, but the book does not say that at all in fact it says 3 times they serve gods
So yeah Your god, grants you power"like a cleric" but you don't serve them..sorry no. Your using a meaning to the word serve they did not mean to find a loophole.
Now it is your game if you choose to allow them without a god more power to you, but the book does not say that at all in fact it says 3 times they serve gods
But doesn't say they have to.
Kelemvor was a fighter. I'm thinking a Paladin who keeps a secret from his order like that might have alignment issues, I suppose he might not but boy that would be a tough one.I have seen paladins of Kelemvor before, he is a LN god of death. They are very effective undead hunters.Wasn't Kelemvor a paladin himself, before attaining divinity?
I actually played such a paladin before. Had to keep the fact that his wife had arisen as a ghost from his order. A lot of fun, that game.
Why? Just because the Paladin's wife came back to see him doesn't mean that he has alignment issues. So long as he continues to serve the higher good, and whatever laws he's personally sworn to uphold. (whether or not they are in agreement with the laws of his order)
Now that might have interfered with his code of conduct... but that's different from alignment.
I didn't mention anything about his wife or her coming back. I said keeping a secret from his order would be tough. I imagine most Lawful and LG orders are likely to require openness about such events.
Your My opinion is what it is but the book does say you serve a god. That simple
This will go round and round endlessly. I wish they had made it clear but if they did more b#!!&ing would have come about
But doesn't say they have to.So yeah Your god, grants you power"like a cleric" but you don't serve them..sorry no. Your using a meaning to the word serve they did not mean to find a loophole.
Now it is your game if you choose to allow them without a god more power to you, but the book does not say that at all in fact it says 3 times they serve gods
Then he does not gain them powers. As it says a god grants them just as a clerics does. It is in the write up. That simple
I didn't mention anything about his wife or her coming back. I said keeping a secret from his order would be tough. I imagine most Lawful and LG orders are likely to require openness about such events.
Oh I agree, be fun to see how far you can go without lieing out right. He many things folks ask you can just leave stuff they didnt ask outright you. Omitting isn't lieing per say
Then he does not gain them powers. As it says a god grants them just as a clerics does. It is in the write up. That simple
I could go with that. Still a paladin just no bond and holy champion.
I could go with that. Still a paladin just no bond and holy champion.
Then he does not gain them powers. As it says a god grants them just as a clerics does. It is in the write up. That simple
Yeah, I do wish it was more clear and sorry for being bull headed about it. Sigh Paladin threads lol.
I do see why it was not made more clear. As it could cause more issues. Still as always best to make it clear from day 1 how you see it. I just always go in from him having to worship a god and it being 1 step. Then if I am told he does not have to I can expand.
Absolutely, you specifically said that your paladin had a different interpretation of his gods dogma then that established by members of his order. One that would actually put you in direct opposition with the members of your order should they find out. But you had a justifiable interpretation based off of your own perspective.
Emphasis mine.
That's where I got confused; you're confusing my point with that made by someone else.
I never claimed a paladin couldn't follow a different interpretation of his deity's teachings than that followed by other worshipers. I'm the one that objected to a paladin following an interpretation of his deity's teachings that differed from that of the deity himslef.
|
Absolutely, you specifically said that your paladin had a different interpretation of his gods dogma then that established by members of his order. One that would actually put you in direct opposition with the members of your order should they find out. But you had a justifiable interpretation based off of your own perspective.Emphasis mine.
That's where I got confused; you're confusing my point with that made by someone else.
I never claimed a paladin couldn't follow a different interpretation of his deity's teachings than that followed by other worshipers. I'm the one that objected to a paladin following an interpretation of his deity's teachings that differed from that of the deity himslef.
I gotcha, sorry for getting the points mixed up. I guess my response to you is that who says the paladin is taking a different interpretation of the diety. What if your diety is the uncaring one (isn't there an evil god in FR that is called that), or simply who's only concerns is that manipulation, death, and secrets are all being honored and used and the reason he's evil is that he doesn't care HOW they are being used, merely that they are.
Like I said, this is dependant on campaign, specific gods, and most importantly discussing with the DM but by the rules a paladin can worship an evil diety without loosing his powers so long as he maintains his code and doesn't actually perform evil acts. So if a player came to me with an interesting interpretation of a diety's portfolio and the setting and god were ones that it was conceptually possible (i.e. not someone like Gruumsh) I would be willing to hear them out. Also in my games secular paladins will be allowable, I just worry that one of my favorite characters wouldn't be allowed in someone elses game because now Pathfinder rules say paladins have to have diety's (which may or may not be true, but is easily gotten from the lines others have posted)
|
|
Here is a really good example. Lets use the christian devil (or if you prefer Cheliax's Asmodeous since they seem pretty much the same in most aspects) . Undeniably evil, but lets say that a paladin was raised by secret cult worshipers who had always told their son of the greatness of their lord, but because he was their child had shielded him from the darker aspects of their religion. Now that child grows up. He knows others think that Satan is evil, but he was always raised being told of the good aspects of Satan. He learns of his parents evil deeds and is disgusted, but he believes it is his parents failings not Satans so he goes out and begins doing good deeds and righteous acts, openly worshiping satan. Now most people revile him obviously but he calmly wethers their hatred hoping that in doing so they will see the truth.
In the meantime he is able to smite down people he sees as truly evil and begins to be able to cast spells, and yes his power is coming from satan. Why would satan give this guy power? Because he knows that every soul that this guy converts to his worship is his. He'll make sure the paladin falls because so long as the paladin has this righteous image it will be easier for him to convert people. Take away that and you have another cultist, not a bad thing, but not likely to sway to many good christians to satan's cause. Even if the paladin confronts some satanic cult doing ungodly rituals, that ends up benefiting satan because then people see that hey, maybe I was wrong, this guy is doing all these nice things and is even stopping these evil satanists, so maybe it's not satan that was evil, but just those douchebags doing their evil cult thing. In the end the paladin is being fueled by an evil force and it is all just one big con on satans part. And then if the paladin really falls, then Satan has a chance to sneak in there and say, "Hey, I know i took those powers from you, but I tell you what you've been so faithful, I'm willing to give you all new powers and you won't even have to worry about loosing them. All I ask in return is maybe you just lighten up a little..."
Roleplaying, opportunity, and justification. and all believable and well within the bounds of an EVIL god (note that i'm using god in the pretext of dnd and not saying that satan is a god, I hope to not have offended anyone and if so I do truly apologize as this was the best example I could think of)
|
|
I do not really get why people who seem adamantly opposed to more than 1 step difference in alignment between the paladin and his god see absolutely no problem with the 1 step difference.
Why would following a LN or NG deity be so natural and easy for a LG paladin ? He will undoubtedly have some problem with the way other devout worshippers of the same deity act, even when said deity has no problem with it.
Heck, a paladin of a LN deity might have a LE cleric as his legitimate superior. How would he then reconcile it with the code ?
Here is a really good example. Lets use the christian devil (or if you prefer Cheliax's Asmodeous since they seem pretty much the same in most aspects) . Undeniably evil, but lets say that a paladin was raised by secret cult worshipers who had always told their son of the greatness of their lord, but because he was their child had shielded him from the darker aspects of their religion. Now that child grows up. He knows others think that Satan is evil, but he was always raised being told of the good aspects of Satan. He learns of his parents evil deeds and is disgusted, but he believes it is his parents failings not Satans so he goes out and begins doing good deeds and righteous acts, openly worshiping satan. Now most people revile him obviously but he calmly wethers their hatred hoping that in doing so they will see the truth.
In the meantime he is able to smite down people he sees as truly evil and begins to be able to cast spells, and yes his power is coming from satan. Why would satan give this guy power? Because he knows that every soul that this guy converts to his worship is his. He'll make sure the paladin falls because so long as the paladin has this righteous image it will be easier for him to convert people. Take away that and you have another cultist, not a bad thing, but not likely to sway to many good christians to satan's cause. Even if the paladin confronts some satanic cult doing ungodly rituals, that ends up benefiting satan because then people see that hey, maybe I was wrong, this guy is doing all these nice things and is even stopping these evil satanists, so maybe it's not satan that was evil, but just those douchebags doing their evil cult thing. In the end the paladin is being fueled by an evil force and it is all just one big con on satans part. And then if the paladin really falls, then Satan has a chance to sneak in there and say, "Hey, I know i took those powers from you, but I tell you what you've been so faithful, I'm willing to give you all new powers and you won't even have to...
Interesting scenario, but it poses theological questions which need to be answered: So this good righteous noble and utterly misguided Paladin of Satan goes out to do noble deeds and whatnot, actually saves some virgins, smites some fiends and all the rest. Then one day he's eaten by a random otyugh. What precisely happens to his soul?
Does it go to the realms of the good (since he is undeniably good, even if deceived) or does it go to the realm of his god, Satan? And what does Satan do with it when it gets there? Continue the elaborate charade on the off chance some equally deluded cleric resurrects the guy? Cackles and throws the good soul into the pit to be poked with pitchforks by devils who mock his utter cluelessness? Elevates him to become a fiend in his retinue, even though he's good, and pretty incompetent at the fiend business?
Unless Satan has bothered to think of this, he's probably not going to let the game go this far.
I have seen paladins of Kelemvor before, he is a LN god of death. They are very effective undead hunters.Wasn't Kelemvor a paladin himself, before attaining divinity?
Kelemvor was a straight Fighter IIRC. He couldn't have been a paladin; he was LN before he ascended.
That off-topic comment aside, I agree with the (actually-following-Rules-As-Written for once!) side that says paladins can worship any deity, ideal, or principle. Now if we could just make them unrestricted by alignment...
To me knights story there is not a paladin. He Knows his god is evil, he knows he is helping spread evil and he is actively bring people into the fold of evil where they will be used to spread more evil and damning there souls to hell
He is telling what he knows to be lies and spreading the lies. This man is not LG much less a paladin
Kelemvor was indeed a fighter, LN and a lycanthrop of the cured type, his curse allowed him to do nothing without being paid for it or he would change
I do agree RAW does not say 1 step, however you can not serve a god more then one step for very long without changing AL. And as you gain powers from a god most more then 1 step would not care if you fallowed your code or not.
I do agree RAW does not say 1 step, however you can not serve a god more then one step for very long without changing AL.
Tell that to Paladins of Sune Firehair, who is Chaotic Good. There have been Paladins of Sune since at least 2nd edition.
that is true. However even if she is CG she fallows rules. she understands such things being the goddess of love and marriage after all. Also if you recall in FR she was always the exception..the one and only exception not the rule.
Still you can not fallow evil and stay Good,
I think my problem is that the description of paladin lost the ability to be secular. Nope Paizo says that paladins have to worship a diety.
From the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting book, p.47:
"Some paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shellyn, but paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common"
Show that to your DM, and tell him to let Forgotten Realms go. =)
I think my problem is that the description of paladin lost the ability to be secular. Nope Paizo says that paladins have to worship a diety.From the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting book, p.47:
"Some paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shellyn, but paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common"
Show that to your DM, and tell him to let Forgotten Realms go. =)
But that predates the new core, that was working off 3.5 which allowed both. The current core game stats ability come from gods and that they serve gods.
Still up to the GM after all if I run Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting you do in fact have to have a god, but your GM may allow otherwise
But that predates the new core, that was working off 3.5 which allowed both. The current core game stats ability come from gods and that they serve gods.
Paizo hasn't announced plans to re-launch the previous sourcebooks for 1.0, and hopefully Bulhman won't pull a George Lucas on us saying that starting now only material published after 1.0 is canon. If there was something I hated about FR, that was the deity-dependancy... suddenly switching to that wouldn't be just a change in rules, but also a change in the setting's whole cosmogony, which affects -every- user of PF Chronicles, regardless of whether they even use PF or not.
Let's just think about people who were playing no-deity paladins before the conversion, and has the misfortune of suffering stringent GMs who would tell him "Ok I don't care about your character's concept, core says now you forcefully have to have a deity"... wouldn't that be pretty much the equivalent of going Spell-Plague on them? I know if I was one such player I'd be walking out the door.
Well Erik has said a few times one step IIRC in the chatroom,but that was his take and not Paioz's as a whole and as for the setting there is zero canon paladins with no gods.
But yeah it boils down to taste. I think it makes it clear you must have a god, but other folks will see that as not proof so there ya go
I think my problem is that the description of paladin lost the ability to be secular. Nope Paizo says that paladins have to worship a diety.From the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting book, p.47:
"Some paladins serve Abadar, Irori, or Shellyn, but paladins who serve no specific god are actually more common"
Show that to your DM, and tell him to let Forgotten Realms go. =)
The "no specific god" can also be read as them being polytheists with no particular devotion to any one god but honoring them all.
If the gods of good wish to jointly sponsor a polytheist paladin, I don't see a particular problem with that. It's just that the nebulous "force of goodness" with no actual divine intelligence behind it doesn't really work, unless you've got it as some ubergod which has a thing against physical embodiment.
|
|
To me knights story there is not a paladin. He Knows his god is evil, he knows he is helping spread evil and he is actively bring people into the fold of evil where they will be used to spread more evil and damning there souls to hell
He is telling what he knows to be lies and spreading the lies. This man is not LG much less a paladin
Um no, all your life your told someone isn't evil, then you meet other people who believe they are evil. Most people have a hard time without physical examples of changing belief and he believes that people are misguided and assume the actions of followers represent the acts of the "god". Now if someone brought satan in front of him and showed him satan doing evil things maybe this guy would change his mind. But I don't know any mortal who can make a "god" do what they want like that to prove a point. So don't go saying he's lying, because he believes he's telling the truth. And faith in the face of opposition is the paladin's schtick.
Did I ever once say the paladin thought satan was evil, no I said he knew others believed satan was evil and thought they were wrong. Prove the paladin wrong why don't you?
|
|
however you can not serve a god more then one step for very long without changing AL.
Okay I'm sorry but that's just rediculous. So evil people can't worship good gods and do things like have inquisitions, and crusades to wipe out non-believers, because by serving a good god every single person then shifts in alignment?
I'm sorry I think it's possible to be an evil prick your entire life and serve a good diety. Especially since priests tend to have easier lives in many ways than common folk.
|
|
Interesting scenario, but it poses theological questions which need to be answered: So this good righteous noble and utterly misguided Paladin of Satan goes out to do noble deeds and whatnot, actually saves some virgins, smites some fiends and all the rest. Then one day he's eaten by a random otyugh. What precisely happens to his soul?
Does it go to the realms of the good (since he is undeniably good, even if deceived) or does it go to the realm of his god, Satan? And what does Satan do with it when it gets there? Continue the elaborate charade on the off chance some equally deluded cleric resurrects the guy? Cackles and throws the good soul into the pit to be poked with pitchforks by devils who mock his utter cluelessness? Elevates him to become a fiend in his retinue, even though he's good, and pretty incompetent at the fiend business?
Unless Satan has bothered to think of this, he's probably not going to let the game go this far.
Sounds to me like a lot of interesting roleplaying opportunities. Also I would say it depends on the campaign setting (I.e. are high enough level clerics wandering around if they aren't in the party) and the party (is there already a cleric intending to raise him)
I could see if Satan knew that the paladin was really likely to get raised that he would maintain the illusion. Bring him to a section of hell that's all well decorated and no-one is being tortured, to further delude the paladin, after all to a creature of immortal nature, waiting 20 years for the paladin to die of old age where he can't be raised isn't really that hard a prospect is it?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Did I ever once say the paladin thought Satan was evil? No, I said he knew others believed Satan was evil and thought they were wrong. Prove the paladin wrong, why don't you?
And at that, the analogy to real-world issues begins to fall apart. Because in D&D, Evil actually means something other than "I don't like it" or "he isn't nice". Evil (with a capital 'E') is kept at bay by a Protection from Evil spell. It's detectable (by the paladin in question, no less, and for this very reason.)
So, the paladin detects evil and the jig is up. He can tell that all of Satan's clerics channel negative energy, that Satanic magic items radiate Evil, and that Satan's altar is under the effects of an unhallow spell.
|
|
Did I ever once say the paladin thought Satan was evil? No, I said he knew others believed Satan was evil and thought they were wrong. Prove the paladin wrong, why don't you?And at that, the analogy to real-world issues begins to fall apart. Because in D&D, Evil actually means something other than "I don't like it" or "he isn't nice". Evil (with a capital 'E') is kept at bay by a Protection from Evil spell. It's detectable (by the paladin in question, no less, and for this very reason.)
So, the paladin detects evil and the jig is up. He can tell that all of Satan's clerics channel negative energy, that Satanic magic items radiate Evil, and that Satan's altar is under the effects of an unhallow spell.
See this is where it doesn't fall apart, because
a) those are all things created by people, the paladin can't actually summon satan to see he is evilb) an evil cleric can lie and claim to worship iomedae so you could see clerics covered in holy symbols from a good god channeling evil energy because he has his evil gods holy symbol tatood on his balls where no one would see it. Or hell one of those holy symbols of iomedae might actually be a holy symbol of lamashtu with a minor image permanencied over it to make it look like a holy symbol of Iomedae.
c) not every campaign makes allignment a hard and fast thing just because core does. I've played in campaigns where there were whole branches of a gods religion that were evil despite being good gods. They were inquisitors.
d) there are plenty of ways to mask your allignment with spells and magic items and a cure mass wounds mimics a channel energy spell in effect so its really easy to fake it. which I would sure as hell hope that people secretly worshiping evil gods would do.
e) when the paladin is smiting down evil satanists with powers derived from his god then it's really easy for him to believe that the cultists were in the wrong not the god. In fact maybe the god gave him the powers specifically so he could route out the evil branch of the religion.
f) people don't have their class stamped on their forhead. and adepts don't have the one step restriction. So it's actually possible to have people of a different allignment in a church casting spells granted from their god with an evil allignment, and claiming themselves to be clerics, within the core rules. So there's nothing stoping a core game from having as much intrigue in a curch and the DM only has to have a game where all of a gods worshipers are the same alignment if they want to. Heck you could have good adepts worshiping Asmodeus in cheliax.
And I actually agree that Evil means something. However there's just no way to prove a gods alignment other than what's commonly agreed upon. However when the people saying that the god is evil are a different religion its sure a hell of a lot harder to believe them. And it's sure as heck possible within the core rules to meet REDICULOUSLY EVIL people who have auras of good when you detect evil.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
See this is where it doesn't fall apart, because
a) those are all things created by people, the paladin can't actually summon satan to see he is evil
b) an evil cleric can lie and claim to worship Iomedae so you could see clerics covered in holy symbols from a good god channeling evil energy because he has his evil god's holy symbol where no one would see it.
c) not every campaign makes allignment a hard and fast thing just because core does. I've played in campaigns where there were whole branches of a gods religion that were evil despite being good gods. They were inquisitors.
d) there are plenty of ways to mask your allignment and a cure mass wounds mimics a channel energy spell in effect so its really easy to fake it. which I would sure as hell hope that people secretly worshiping evil gods would do.
e) when the paladin is smiting down evil satanists with powers derived from his god then it's really easy to believe that the cultists were in the wrong not the god. In fact maybe the god gave you the powers specifically so you could route out the evil branch of the religion.
f) people don't have their class stamped on their forhead. and adepts don't have the one step restriction. So it's...
Hi, LKL. It's clear that you've thought a lot of these through. But you're on shakier-and-shakier ground here.
(a) If my friend , the paladin, tried to assert that "Well, yeah, dude, all my god's temples are evil, and his minions are evil, but that doesn't make him evil!" I'd have to shake my head sadly and have a talk with him about denial.
(b) If I remember correctly, the Forgotten Realms have a few cases of this: a cleric of Nasty God X who claims to be a priest of Stern God Y. I recall one adventure being a quest on behalf of the church of Stern God Y, inviting the cleric to either put his money where his mouth was, or desist.
(c) You might cite Eberron, where clerics could have personal morals and allegiances contrary to the wishes of their divine patrons. In fact, there are some 3.5 campaigns where gods don't have alignments at all. (I'm thinking of PCI's Arcanis setting.)
But in a discussion centered on "what do the rules say about paladins and their gods" it does no good to say, "Well, some campaigns don't follow the rules." In 3rd Edition, and Pathfinder, clerics must maintain a personal alignment within one step of their god's alignment.
(d) Cure mass wounds is not a supernatural ability; it's clearly a spell, and a Spellcraft check will identify it as it's being cast. Powerful villains, desperate to remain unrevealed, can indeed mask their alignment for a time. But not forever, not against a paladin who wants to uncover the truth. Simple acolytes of evil, without the resources to obscure divinations, are even easier to spot.
My point: Characters in the game know that alignments chart something beyond simple personality, that Evil exists. Nobody with a clear head can look at a Lawful Evil deity and see it as its opposite.
Which may be the "out" here. Years ago, there was an AD&D adventure with a Good-aligned cleric who had been driven insane by a powerful demon's attacks. If our paladin were magically or psionically charmed or driven insane, he could have the combination of Lawful Good alignment with "likes Evil god" personality trait.
And that may also answer your dilemma about souls brought to the Evil god through their admiration for this paladin. Devils get souls through contractual agreements. And the kind of agreement that's likely to work ("Give your soul to my Not-So-Dark Lord and I'll heal your baby.") isn't the kind of agreement that the paladin is likely to offer.
Asmodeus probably tried this schtick centuries ago. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.
I too do not like the idea that paladins HAVE to follow a particular god. I can see how certain campaign settings (like Forgotten Realms) would impose that extra rule, but that the basic core rules oblige the paladin to be religious (especially when druids, rangers and ironically, clerics do not have this restriction) is only limiting options.
Granted, a paladin must be Lawful Good. That does not necessarily imply religious devotion.
A paladin must follow its code. That also does not necessarily imply religious devotion.
A paladin must be righteous. Then again, righteousness can exist as a concept outside religious devotion.
Even if a paladin HAS to be religious, I don't see why the paladin has to worship one deity above all others and swear by its name in most (if not all) occasions. A paladin could be religious and follow the tenets of an entire pantheon (or if we must, the "good" side of the pantheon).
'findel
c) not every campaign makes allignment a hard and fast thing just because core does. I've played in campaigns where there were whole branches of a gods religion that were evil despite being good gods. They were inquisitors.
This may be so, but not every campaign necessarily makes it so gravity exists, or that standard characters need air to breathe; anything is possible in a home campaign. This is a discussion about a core game play issue. Stick with the core rules, else there's no point to this at all.
Honestly, it's perfectly fine for you to have such paladins in your game. But I'm not buying your examples. You're stretching them thinner and thinner each time you mention or elaborate on them, even without others shooting them full of additional holes every time you do. It's far-fetched in by the core rules at best; a paladin of an evil deity would be taking the "dumber than a rock" concept of paladins to an extreme. Honestly, I'd go so far as to state that a paladin that can't determine his own deity is evil is no paladin at all. He could think he's a paladin, have some of the same abilities as a paladin, but he wouldn't actually be one.
|
|
(a) If my friend , the paladin, tried to assert that "Well, yeah, dude, all my god's temples are evil, and his minions are evil, but that doesn't make him evil!" I'd have to shake my head sadly and have a talk with him about denial
Now that's something I can totally get behind. Roleplaying opportunities abounding. However, imagine trying to convince a Religious fanatic that intends to blow something up that that goes against his religions teachings and see how stubornly what you say can fall on deaf ears. Plus it goes back to point E) "If my god is giving me powers even though I'm stopping these other people who are also following my diety, it must mean that he wants me to stop them"
(b) If I remember correctly, the Forgotten Realms have a few cases of this: a cleric of Nasty God X who claims to be a priest of Stern God Y. I recall one adventure being a quest on behalf of the church of Stern God Y, inviting the cleric to either put his money where his mouth was, or desist.
Yeah I'm not familiar with older adventures (paizo is the first AP I ever bought) so thanks for the refrence reaffirming my point.
(c) You might cite Eberron, where clerics could have personal morals and allegiances contrary to the wishes of their divine patrons. In fact, there are some 3.5 campaigns where gods don't have alignments at all. (I'm thinking of PCI's Arcanis setting.)
But in a discussion centered on "what do the rules say about paladins and their gods" it does no good to say, "Well, some campaigns don't follow the rules." In 3rd Edition, and Pathfinder, clerics must maintain a personal alignment within one step of their god's alignment.
Yeah allright ignore C although throughout this entire discussion I have said that the whole point is contingent on talking with the DM. Also even in a campaign world set with core rules where clerics have to be within one step of their diety that doesn't negate point F, just because the clerics are within one step doesn't mean every spellcasting follower is. And remember once again an adept in a church and a cleric in a church probably don't differentiate themselves in terms of title. Both will call themselves clerics, or priests, or whatever. Cleric Class is a metagame concept.
d) Cure mass wounds is not a supernatural ability; it's clearly a spell, and a Spellcraft check will identify it as it's being cast. Powerful villains, desperate to remain unrevealed, can indeed mask their alignment for a time. But not forever, not against a paladin who wants to uncover the truth. Simple acolytes of evil, without the resources to obscure divinations, are even easier to spot.
you're right, however I'm talking about someone who is dedicated to keeping up this deception. And you're assuming that people are always making spellcraft checks to insure that everything being done is on the level. I've seen players go to the cleric all the time and get magical healing without once making a spellcraft check. I imagine someone dedicated to keeping up a deception would silent and still a cure mass. either through sudden feats or metamagic rods or plain old being high enough level. Are you telling me that there is such an aparent difference between a silent, stilled, cure mass. and channel positive energy?
|
|
But I'm not buying your examples. You're stretching them thinner and thinner each time.
Really, or are you running on a bunch of assumptions as to how things work based on your experience.
There's another thing that's been bugging me, people keep saying "if everyone who worships evil god is evil how is the paladin not seeing that." My question is is everyone in cheliax evil? they all worship asmodeus, so they all are evil?. Good people can't make deals with evil gods to worship them in exchange for some boon that they couldn't get from the good gods.
Honestly to me the people saying that everyone who serves a god should be within one step of their gods allignment or at least close are the ones deluding themselves and making rather easy game worlds to get by in, and all because one class has an alignment restriction. A class that is by the rules of the game supposed to be rare. NPC classes are by far more common, and they don't have a restriction. Odds are that "cleric" you just got healing from was an adept. Clerics the class are the rare few super devout with extra power to show for it, but at that level and at that rarity I'd say execting all the people with divine magic to have the same alignment as their god is just silly. Sure there are trends in a religion. The larger portion of each should be somewhat close. But that doesn't mean even using core rules that You should expect someone of a religion to be any alignment. But play your games however you want. Don't tell me that my reasoning is stretched thin though, because ignoring point C the core rules allow it and human nature allows it. So until you can give me a core reason that my reasons are "thin" I'll just assume you see the game world your way, and I'll see it mine.
|
|
It's far-fetched in by the core rules at best
really, give me one reason why, cause I haven't heard one yet that isn't a metagame one.
Honestly, I'd go so far as to state that a paladin that can't determine is own deity is evil is no paladin at all. He could think he's a paladin, have some of the same abilities as a paladin, but he wouldn't actually be one.
Now who's being ludicrous here? how in the hell does anyone KNOW their diety's alignment? Are you really telling me that it's anything more than the game book says the god has an alignment? Unless you're playing in a game world where a) the gods walk the earth. and b) the gods can't get around a simple first level spell. Saying people know a damned thing about their god is simply rediculous. People go by what they think the god teaches assuming a world where the god directly teaches people and that men hadn't written the teachings. And assuming that there aren't multiple different versions of a gods teaching. And assuming that the people who worship the god aren't trying to cast him in the best possible light even if his alignment IS evil. Even calling allies of the "god" with planar ally spells isn't reliable because of powerful illusion magics and the fact that once again, we aren't dealing with level 8 clerics. We're dealing with GODS, CR 50 beings with powers that 20th level casters still can't ken. So don't give me that anyone in the world KNOWS anything about their god when by the core rules people of any alignment can cast divine spells and the only indication anyone has of a gods alignment is that it's stated in the game book.
I could see if Satan knew that the paladin was really likely to get raised that he would maintain the illusion. Bring him to a section of hell that's all well decorated and no-one is being tortured, to further delude the paladin, after all to a creature of immortal nature, waiting 20 years for the paladin to die of old age where he can't be raised isn't really that hard a prospect is it?
This theological/literary ground has been trod over before. Consider the ending of Faust: Old man sells his soul for youth, but once he gets it, he actually falls in love, True Love, and at the end of the play, both Heaven and Hell are arm-wrestling for him and his girlfriend. Or in the silent movie version, where the angel shows up and tells Mephistopheles that love can't exist in Hell, so he forfeits his claim.
There's also the question of what happens if Satan decides to strip aside the illusion at some point and reveal himself in his true wickedness, and the paladin, having utter faith in his delusion, would quite reasonably tell Satan that he's not the real Satan, just some second-rate fiend sent to deceive him, because his Lord Satan would never do any of the wicked things Satan does.
Then again, there's also the question of whether Satan has to actually be lawful evil. There are plenty of theological and literary interpretations of the Fall of Lucifer where Satan is still Yehovah's best bud and most loyal retainer, playing bad cop because he's the only one trusted enough to do it.
And then you can get into other mythologies, such as the Norse pantheon, where it can be argued that Loki is not so much evil as bipolar.
|
|
I could see if Satan knew that the paladin was really likely to get raised that he would maintain the illusion. Bring him to a section of hell that's all well decorated and no-one is being tortured, to further delude the paladin, after all to a creature of immortal nature, waiting 20 years for the paladin to die of old age where he can't be raised isn't really that hard a prospect is it?This theological/literary ground has been trod over before. Consider the ending of Faust: Old man sells his soul for youth, but once he gets it, he actually falls in love, True Love, and at the end of the play, both Heaven and Hell are arm-wrestling for him and his girlfriend. Or in the silent movie version, where the angel shows up and tells Mephistopheles that love can't exist in Hell, so he forfeits his claim.
I also remember Faust actually getting a tour of hell in the actual literary work, and in that he sees tortures and things, but not enough to actually try and get out of the deal, after he leaves the devil explains to a minion that he couldn't show faust the "real hell" because then the man would do everything in his power to escape.
Not to mention that if you think about it a "god" like that could easily even write off his torture of the souls, explaining it as his high moral duty to punish the wicked.
As I was saying this is all campaign based and doesn't work for every god. but I can see certain scenarios where if a paladin player wanted to try something like this I would allow it because it would lead to lots and lots of interesting roleplay opportunities.
Now who's being ludicrous here? how in the hell does anyone KNOW their diety's alignment?
I'm saying WE know because the rule book tells us so. And we make the characters.
I say a CHARACTER knows because they can see the effect a deity and his or her dogma has on the world around them. One doesn't need to use magical means to discern the nature of a deity, nor does such a character need to know how a deity falls along the lines of Law/Chaos and Good/Evil. All a paladin would have to do, even one raised by folks that lied to him all his life, is look at the deity's clerics. Are they doing evil things? Do they still have access to their divine power? If the answer is yes to both, said deity supports the cleric's evil actions.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I imagine someone dedicated to keeping up a deception would silent and still a mass cure light wounds, either through sudden feats or metamagic rods or plain old being high enough level. Are you telling me that there is such an aparent difference between a silent, stilled, cure mass. and channel positive energy?
Yep. The spell still provokes an attack of opportunity, only has a radius of 15 feet, and can be recognized with a Spellcraft check. Channeling is a supernatural ability, doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, and has a radius of 30'. And, y'know, if we're talkin' about somebody needing to cast 7th Level spells in order to pass as a 1st-Level good guy, doesn't that strike you as a lot of work?
|
|
Now who's being ludicrous here? how in the hell does anyone KNOW their diety's alignment?I'm saying WE know because the rule book tells us so. And we make the characters.
Players yes, I'm talking characters.
I say a CHARACTER knows because they can see the effect a deity and his or her dogma has on the world around them.
And I've already called BS on this. A God can have several Dogmas, and interpretations, and cults all following the same god and doing things differently, there's nothing in the rules that sets any of that in stone so saying differently is just speaking of specific campaign settings. Just because yours do, there's nothing in the game rules that say that the gods have one dogma/holy text/etc. Heck the same god can have multiple religions. to once again cite the real world. Jehovah, God, and Allah, are all the abrahamic one god, but no one would say that they are the same religion or same dogma.
One doesn't need to use magical means to discern the nature of a deity, nor does such a character need to know how a deity falls along the lines of Law/Chaos and Good/Evil. All a paladin would have to do, even one raised by folks that lied to him all his life, is look at the deity's clerics.
And once again character class isn't a stamp on your forhead. Non-magical priests, adepts, and clerics would all refer to themselves as guess what... clerics. So you can have by the core rules clerics that run around litterally doing things that other clerics of their god would find abhorent and even be using magic.
Are they doing evil things? Do they still have access to their divine power? If the answer is yes to both, said deity supports the cleric's evil actions.
Or it's a world where the gods don't directly flip each persons on/off switch. An adept of a Lawful Good god by the core rules can go out and eat 500 babys and still have power. Now in your game if your gods then go and shut off his magical water spigot, more power to you. But don't tell me that that's the way it is by the core rules of the game, or even the base assumption of the system. Now you want to talk about specifically the cleric class then yeah definitely, but clerics are a whole 'nother level of devotion and are a lot rarer than the rest, and the cleric class isn't the end all of the divine magical world between PrCs, NPC classes, and just plain old liars.
Or Hell you could have an order of Clerics who devote themselves to trickery and chaos domains who go around claiming to be the cleric of other gods. So that you see good clerics of evil gods channeling positive energy, and evil clerics of good gods channeling negative energy. They'd be running around doing all sorts of things in the name of gods and yet they'd never loose their power, how would your paladin or cleric explain that hmmm?
And once again this time I've left everything within the core rules, not campaign rules. By the core rules it's possible to get away with a heck of a lot more than you think and have way more complicated religions.
Just because that's not how you see it. Don't tell me that theres any specific reason it works the way you see it. because you haven't cited a single rule to prove credence to your points. And I can actually cite spells, classes, and rules to support mine.
|
|
I imagine someone dedicated to keeping up a deception would silent and still a mass cure light wounds, either through sudden feats or metamagic rods or plain old being high enough level. Are you telling me that there is such an aparent difference between a silent, stilled, cure mass. and channel positive energy?Yep. The spell still provokes an attack of opportunity, only has a radius of 15 feet, and can be recognized with a Spellcraft check. Channeling is a supernatural ability, doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, and has a radius of 30'. And, y'know, if we're talkin' about somebody needing to cast 7th Level spells in order to pass as a 1st-Level good guy, doesn't that strike you as a lot of work?
Yup, I'm not saying there aren't ways to tell the difference. I'm saying people with no suspicion aren't going to question it if it happens. I'm talking obvious noticable differences, are people always making sure to stand at exactly 25ft away making a spellcraft check and having someone attack the cleric to make sure he's provoking an AoO? No for the most part people will be standing around a cleric and get healed and never question it further. And without high ranks in knowledge (religion) and a high spellcraft, I wouldn't even think most people in the game world know there's a 30' limit on channel energy or that its a supernatural ability. Without another cleric to prove them wrong what indications or knowledge will people have that they're being decieved? I mean if I'm in a room to get healed with a couple of other people and we all get healed am I watching the healer specifically to make sure its channel energy or cure mass that's been silent and stilled? Or do you just allow free spellcraft checks if the players don't ask for it? Cause then yeah, they might catch the difference. and once again these are just examples of things not being so cut and dried.
Mostly I'm just supporting that you can, by the rules, do it however you like. I'm not saying that it's easy or even works in every campaign setting. But I'm getting a lot of people saying that what I'm proposing isn't possible and I'm just showing how it's plausible in any setting by the core rules. Yet people seem to think that there's some defined way religions and gods work in the core rules that simply aren't there. (and I'm not even saying that it's you Chris, just in general)
Once again, your game run it however you like. But don't take how you run it and say it applies to the rules.
Ok guys we are not longer in RAW but last knights game. If he wants to allow non LG paladins that's fine.
Now I would get behind the multi god ideal and kinda thought the same way with paladins with no god. Someone has to grant his power after all of like last knights example he is incapable of falling as his god is ok with killing that last group of children they had it coming right :)