So with book of the dead on the way (with many subscribers already having their hands on the PDF) I think its safe to say that visions of necromancer characters are in the near future. I was brushing up on my summoning/necromancer knowledge when I realized that because of the slowed 1 condition all zombies have wouldn't that make them simply unviable summons? No matter what abilities it has the whole point of having a minion is that you trade 1 for 2 actions, 1 for 1 is just not playable imo.
There used to be a debate with whether a minion could be effected by slowed/quickened but that debate seems to have be put to rest with the Poppet's Spark of Independance.
Maybe there's a balancing point I'm missing but it seems kind of immersion breaking to play a necromancer that doesn't summon 1 of the most classic undead monsters in the game. I do plan on homebrewing this at my table regardless of RAW but I also like to dable in PFS so I would love to know if there's been any more clarification on this (or maybe even in BOtD).
(Specifically this has to do with the Animate Dead spell which pulls statblocks from the bestiaries not any zombies Animal Companions from BOtD as I assume the rules are different)
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I'm not sure the issue of Slow/Quickened on minions has been put to rest (at least, the decision has not been made public yet and I don't know what it was, only that it is/was being discussed).
One could argue that being summoned already applies Slowed 1 as represented by their 2 Action limit rather than 3. Obviously, it does not literally, legalistically, so it's not an answer.
However, minions do not "regain [their] actions at the start of [their] turn," so they also can't technically regain fewer due to Slowed, because it applies when "you regain your actions at the start of your turn."
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Yeah Slowed/Quickened Minions is top on my list of Core questions I'd like Paizo to address some day (the other being the list of Wild Shape clarifications).
Gaming online, I've encountered quite the spectrum of interpretations. It bothers me when the same GM rules that one Minion can be Slowed, but another can't be Quickened.
Minions should either be affected by both, or not affected by both. The conditions use the same language.
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Yeah Slowed/Quickened Minions is top on my list of Core questions I'd like Paizo to address some day (the other being the list of Wild Shape clarifications).
Gaming online, I've encountered quite the spectrum of interpretations. It bothers me when the same GM rules that one Minion can be Slowed, but another can't be Quickened.
Minions should either be affected by both, or not affected by both. The conditions use the same language.
Not exactly.
Slowed explicitly mentions the moment at the start of your turn when you regain actions ("When you regain your actions at the start of your turn, reduce the number of actions you regain by your slowed value."), while Quickened does not ("You gain 1 additional action at the start of your turn each round.").
So, GM decides if the "additional" in Quicken means it happens in this same step as Slowed.
Note that the Minion trait does not mention gaining actions : "A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn."
So, the Minion gains its actions normally (3 usually, 4 if Quickened, 2 if Slowed 1, 1 if Slowed 2) but can only use 2 of them at most per turn anyway.
So, Quickened and Slowed 1 change nothing.
Slowed 2 would give the minion a single action to use per turn, as it would anyone else
The existence of an ability that quickens minions, and only minions, certainly suggests that quickened and slowed are supposed to javelin an effect on minions.
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The existence of an ability that quickens minions, and only minions, certainly suggests that quickened and slowed are supposed to javelin an effect on minions.
They really should have worded it differently. I guess the intent is to allow the minion to use a 3rd action in addition to its normal 2 actions.
The existence of an ability that quickens minions, and only minions, certainly suggests that quickened and slowed are supposed to javelin an effect on minions.They really should have worded it differently. I guess the intent is to allow the minion to use a 3rd action in addition to its normal 2 actions.
The important part of the feat is the second bit. "It can use this action to Step, Stride, or Strike." I think that the clearest reading is that that's a specific exception to the "can only use two per turn."
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The important part of the feat is the second bit. "It can use this action to Step, Stride, or Strike." I think that the clearest reading is that that's a specific exception to the "can only use two per turn."The existence of an ability that quickens minions, and only minions, certainly suggests that quickened and slowed are supposed to javelin an effect on minions.They really should have worded it differently. I guess the intent is to allow the minion to use a 3rd action in addition to its normal 2 actions.
Agreed. They should not have referred Quickened which does nothing to the "Can only use 2 actions per turn" restriction.
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The important part of the feat is the second bit. "It can use this action to Step, Stride, or Strike." I think that the clearest reading is that that's a specific exception to the "can only use two per turn."The existence of an ability that quickens minions, and only minions, certainly suggests that quickened and slowed are supposed to javelin an effect on minions.They really should have worded it differently. I guess the intent is to allow the minion to use a 3rd action in addition to its normal 2 actions.
That's how Quickened works: "Many effects that make you quickened specify the types of actions you can use with this additional action".
So casting haste ("use the extra action each round only for Strike and Stride") on your Minion should work the same as this poppet ability.
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I believe the point that was being made was that nothing specifically overrides the Minion trait's limitation of only 2 actions per turn, not that it isn't how it should work but merely that you have to make an intuitive leap to get there.
How short, long, or insurmountable that leap is will inevitably vary from person to person.
Yeah Slowed/Quickened Minions is top on my list of Core questions I'd like Paizo to address some day (the other being the list of Wild Shape clarifications).
Gaming online, I've encountered quite the spectrum of interpretations. It bothers me when the same GM rules that one Minion can be Slowed, but another can't be Quickened.
Minions should either be affected by both, or not affected by both. The conditions use the same language.
Not exactly.
Slowed explicitly mentions the moment at the start of your turn when you regain actions ("When you regain your actions at the start of your turn, reduce the number of actions you regain by your slowed value."), while Quickened does not ("You gain 1 additional action at the start of your turn each round.").
So, GM decides if the "additional" in Quicken means it happens in this same step as Slowed.
Note that the Minion trait does not mention gaining actions : "A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn."
So, the Minion gains its actions normally (3 usually, 4 if Quickened, 2 if Slowed 1, 1 if Slowed 2) but can only use 2 of them at most per turn anyway.
So, Quickened and Slowed 1 change nothing.
Slowed 2 would give the minion a single action to use per turn, as it would anyone else
Wow that is an amazing grab Raven. I never realized that technically minions do have 3 actions but can only use 2 per turn. That perfectly put into words why zombies still have 2 actions instead of 1.
The follow up from Sanity also explains why Quickened in that specific wording works. Wow this clears a lot of stuff up for me.
Now can we get the wonderful human behind Exorcist's Guide to Summoning to take a look at this lol. Their summoning guide on Zenith is a great resource for me but all the Zombie rankings got tanked after this came out. It was what originally prompted my search into this.
I think my initial confusion is that in Animal Companions it states that, when commanded, they "gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command it". However summons don't gain 2 actions they gain 3 and can only use 2 since it doesn't specify like animal companion does. Two completely different minions that work differently.