The core rules won't contain definite rules for playing powerful races (i.e. those with racial HD and/or a level adjustment), though there will be GM advice on how to handle that sort of thing.
My advice:
Drop the LA to +1 (races are more powerful than before, so the drow abilities won't make that much of an impact any more).
Maybe fill up LA with NPC class levels, maybe even commoner levels. So a Drow fighter 5 would be counted as a 6th-level character and have 5 levels of fighter and one level of commoner.
That approach isn't as brutal to LA characters as the old LA rules are. This way you still get HP (though usually not as many as before) and at least some BAB and saves (as well as skill points).
My advice:
Maybe fill up LA with NPC class levels, maybe even commoner levels. So a Drow fighter 5 would be counted as a 6th-level character and have 5 levels of fighter and one level of commoner.That approach isn't as brutal to LA characters as the old LA rules are. This way you still get HP (though usually not as many as before) and at least some BAB and saves (as well as skill points).
Wow... what a great idea... I've been trying to find a better fix for level adjustment since 3.0. I think you may have nailed it. Have you play tested that at all? Do you use this method in your own games?
Not sure if we'll ever see "formal" rules on creating Drow characters - at least in the short term. There is a wealth of info in the Second Darkness Adventure Path on Drow; might be some comments/suggestions re players, though I'm not 100% on that.
Regards,
AJC
Now that I'm thinking about it, didn't they make use of feats (or bonus feats) to account for some of the Drow special abilities that they gain as they increase in level?
Wow... what a great idea... I've been trying to find a better fix for level adjustment since 3.0. I think you may have nailed it. Have you play tested that at all? Do you use this method in your own games?
My advice:
Maybe fill up LA with NPC class levels, maybe even commoner levels. So a Drow fighter 5 would be counted as a 6th-level character and have 5 levels of fighter and one level of commoner.That approach isn't as brutal to LA characters as the old LA rules are. This way you still get HP (though usually not as many as before) and at least some BAB and saves (as well as skill points).
Nah, but you're welcome to share your experiences.
I haven't used them yet, but I might do that with the next campaign. It will be legacy of fire, and I might allow genie-touched (forgot what those were called. Suly? They're in Quadira, Gateway to the East).
*elves should ALWAYS be evil anyway*
They're not. Just to spite you. The other day, I saw an elf save a kitten just to give you a headache. That's how evil elves are.
And I approve! Being good is for losers, anyway.
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I tend not to bother. If my player wants to be a "Dark Elf" I just give them a normal Elf with midnight black skin, white hair and an evil (or Chaotic Good *rolls eyes*) alignment.
Supernatural abilities are easily handled with feats or class selection (Sorcerer or Warlock are good choices, but Cleric works too). Switch out Low-Light Vision for Darkvision (60 ft) and you've got a playable Dark Elf.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Spell resistance might still be too good for a +1 LA, you'd have to try it and see.
Another option is to use the level buy-off rules from Unearthed Arcana/d20srd.org. Or use the 1/2 drow template from Green Ronin's Advanced Beastiary if you have it available.
edit, or use Scarred Lands dark elves. which of course I don't have the PDF handy.
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Spoiler for Second Darkness. Do not read if you intend to play.
In Second Darkness, and hence in the world of Golarion (the core PF Campaign Setting), Drow are produced when normal elves who are deeply evil undergo a trauma and become Drow.
These are then Drow and can breed to produce more drow.
So Drow = nauseatingly evil elf. Same creature, purple skin.
-Of course I am guessing a bit here. THey used 3.5 Drow in SD because it was a 3.5 Adventure Path but I am really hoping for Drow sans special powers.
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*elves should ALWAYS be evil anyway*They're not. Just to spite you. The other day, I saw an elf save a kitten just to give you a headache. That's how evil elves are.
What you didn't see is the elf took the kitten home and made a stew with it. Of course it's debatable as to wheter that is actually an evil act. I mean after all it was only a kitten.
I tend not to bother. If my player wants to be a "Dark Elf" I just give them a normal Elf with midnight black skin, white hair and an evil (or Chaotic Good *rolls eyes*) alignment.
Supernatural abilities are easily handled with feats or class selection (Sorcerer or Warlock are good choices, but Cleric works too). Switch out Low-Light Vision for Darkvision (60 ft) and you've got a playable Dark Elf.
Following along with this, I would also change the elven weapon familiarity to drow weapons (hand crossbow, etc.).
You could allow the full Darkvision to 120' if they also take the Light Blindness trait.
I would allow some of the more powerful drow abilities, a la the spell-like abilities, attainable via feats as the character levels.
If playing a Lloth-following-sorta drow, allow a female to choose Cleric as a favored class.
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We have a player with a Drow in our current Pathfinder game, so this is actually near and dear to me :)
In order to not deal with the whole messy ECL / level adjustment mechanic, here is what we came up with.
It's a pretty nice, simple, straight forward and, I think, balanced chart for Drow abilities. I took the bloodlines idea from Unearthed Arcana but simplified them. Granting the skill bonuses and ability bonuses seemed a bit excessive and over complicated given what we were trying to accomplish.
I also was inspired by the Savage Progressions articles Sean K Reynolds did when he was still with WOTC. What I came up with is based on his suggestions as well.
LEVEL ..... SPECIAL
1 ............ darkvision 60 feet
1 ............ faerie fire, dancing lights
4 ............ darkvision 120 feet
6 ............ spell resistance 5 + character level
8 ............ darkness
10 ............ spell resistance 7 + character level
12 ............ spell resistance 11 + character level
DROW
Darkvision (Ex): A 1st-level drow's darkvision range is 60 feet.
At 4th level, the range increases to 120 feet
Faerie Fire (Sp): At 1st level, the drow may use faerie fire (caster level equals drow's character level) once per day.
Dancing Lights (Sp): At 1st level, the drow may use dancing lights (caster level equals drow's character level) once per day.
Spell Resistance (Su): At 6th level, the drow gains spell resistance equal to 5 + character level.
At 8th level, her spell resistance increases to 7 + character level.
At 12th level, her spell resistance increases to 11 + character level.
Darkness (Sp): At 8th level, the drow may use darkness (caster level equals drow's character level) once per day.
Spoiler for Second Darkness. Do not read if you intend to play.
Spoiler:In Second Darkness, and hence in the world of Golarion (the core PF Campaign Setting), Drow are produced when normal elves who are deeply evil undergo a trauma and become Drow.
These are then Drow and can breed to produce more drow.So Drow = nauseatingly evil elf. Same creature, purple skin.
-Of course I am guessing a bit here. THey used 3.5 Drow in SD because it was a 3.5 Adventure Path but I am really hoping for Drow sans special powers.
What you didn't see is the elf took the kitten home and made a stew with it. Of course it's debatable as to wheter that is actually an evil act. I mean after all it was only a kitten.*elves should ALWAYS be evil anyway*They're not. Just to spite you. The other day, I saw an elf save a kitten just to give you a headache. That's how evil elves are.
No one complains about lamb chops, and... lamb chops!
Creative Director
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Drow are actually pretty close as is. You can probably run one with relatively little problem in a group, but the drow character WILL be a little more powerful than the standard races. We got rid of LA in the PFRPG, so the GM will need to just keep in mind that a drow PC is a bit tougher and perhaps give the non-drow PCs a perk or something. A bonus feat or two, a head start on XP, a boost in starting gear, something like that. The drow's racial benefits are really only a huge advantage at lower level, in any case. Spell Resistance and its ability mods are the BIG ones... but as they level up, the ability mods grow a little less outlandish and standardized. SR can be a horrific double edged sword for a PC, though. Sure, you can shrug off bad guy magic, but you also shrug off good guy magic. It sucks to get left out of the during-combat buffing spells because the PC caster fails to penetrate your SR. Sucks even more to be dying and have your SR defeat a healing spell!
ANYway... in Golarion, drow are pretty evil and despicable; flavorwise, it'd be tough to endure as a PC drow unless your GM cuts you some slack. I'd certainly make a drow PC feel the burn in roleplay and in social situations; it's not a great way to design balance, but it can be a pretty good way to balance things in personal games when you know your players.
Alternatively, you can go ahead and keep the LA system or some sort of variant; let the other PCs be 2nd level when the drow PC is 1st level, or start them all at the same but maybe start the drow PC at negative 1000 xp or something. Guidelines and suggestions like this appear in the PFRPG and the Bestiary for PCs of unusual races, but we wanted to keep them guidelines and let individual GMs craft the situation and rules to their particular tastes.
Spell Resistance and its ability mods are the BIG ones...
Actually, I think a con penalty is worse than any other penalty, and balancing it with an extra bonus isn't that bad. I wouldn't mind giving all elves +2 cha in addition to their other stuff to make up for the -2 con. So it's not as if those drow will dominate because of their ability bonuses. What's to be afraid of? Scary drow bards?
but as they level up, the ability mods grow a little less outlandish and standardized. SR can be a horrific double edged sword for a PC, though. Sure, you can shrug off bad guy magic, but you also shrug off good guy magic. It sucks to get left out of the during-combat buffing spells because the PC caster fails to penetrate your SR. Sucks even more to be dying and have your SR defeat a healing spell!
I never played it that way. I know it's meant to be played that way, but I never didn't. It works just like harmless saves.
ANYway... in Golarion, drow are pretty evil and despicable; flavorwise, it'd be tough to endure as a PC drow unless your GM cuts you some slack. I'd certainly make a drow PC feel the burn in roleplay and in social situations; it's not a great way to design balance, but it can be a pretty good way to balance things in personal games when you know your players.
I was never too fond of that. Maybe I think there's something inherently wrong with balancing mechanical advantages with non-mechanical disadvantages. Maybe I could never really pull it off properly. Maybe I never had a player I could dump this on properly.
Properly a mix of all three.
I guess I stick by my "your first level must be commoner" LA rule.
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Just make a normal elf *shudder*
give him an evil alignment *elves should ALWAYS be evil anyway*
his skin changes color
and you have a drow.
Oh, don't forget the dual scimitars and angst!
LOL!
Definitely bucket loads of angst and may be a series of journal entries that detail my thoughts on friends, enemies, love and the prices at the local weaponsmith?
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Personally I am all for letting drow stay NPCs. If it weren't for Drizzt they would be MUCH less popular. Almost every drow I have seen played is a Drizzt clone anyway.
Wanna try something different, plan an ogre, or a kobold or ANYTHING but yet another Drizzt wannabe. Sometimes and NPC race should just be an NPC race. Drow are evil through and through. If you're not playing it as evil through and through you're not playing a drow anyway.
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Just make a normal elf *shudder*
give him an evil alignment *elves should ALWAYS be evil anyway*
his skin changes color
and you have a drow.
Oh, don't forget the dual scimitars and angst!
LOL!
Definitely bucket loads of angst and may be a series of journal entries that detail my thoughts on friends, enemies, love and the prices at the local weaponsmith?
Drow don't have friends. They have enemies and pawns.
And they only love themselves.
:)
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Creative Director
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Personally I am all for letting drow stay NPCs. If it weren't for Drizzt they would be MUCH less popular. Almost every drow I have seen played is a Drizzt clone anyway.
Wanna try something different, plan an ogre, or a kobold or ANYTHING but yet another Drizzt wannabe. Sometimes and NPC race should just be an NPC race. Drow are evil through and through. If you're not playing it as evil through and through you're not playing a drow anyway.
It's worth noting that the two-scimitar-wielding angsty drow ranger isn't the only option for a drow character. Having played a few in my own day (neither of which were Drizzt clones), they can be really fun characters to play. They actually appeal to me more for the roleplaying opportunities than the numbercrunchy parts, though...
Maybe fill up LA with NPC class levels, maybe even commoner levels. So a Drow fighter 5 would be counted as a 6th-level character and have 5 levels of fighter and one level of commoner.
Good idea!
I believe that they changed some of the Type characteristics in the PF hardcover...?
Perhaps there should be an NPC class that is functionally equivalent to the Humanoid type. It'd be a lot better than making them take levels in commoner, and only slightly weaker than warrior or expert. It seems like a more reasonable way of handling commoners, anyway.
Civilian (NPC Class)
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: The civilian’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skills Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int modifier
Base Attack Bonus: ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric)
Saving Throws: Good Reflex (as rogue)
Class Features: The following is a class feature of the civilian NPC class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The civilian is proficient with one simple weapon. He is not proficient with any other weapons, nor is he proficient with any type of armor or shield.
Essentially, a humanoid Hit Die with the commoner's skill list and armor and weapon proficiencies. You could upgrade a 1st-level civilian to 1st-level warrior trivially.
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Almost every drow I have seen played is a Drizzt clone anyway.
I have played a drow character once before and it was no where near a Drizzt clone! It wasn't a ranger, it didn't have a big cat and there were no scimitars on the scene.
May be more immature or less creative players or groups suffer from stereotypes, but I have never encountered any one who has played a drow suffer from Drizzt Syndrome. I think most players shy away from playing a Drizzt Clone because of the well-established stigma.
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Most of my players aren't even familiar with Drizzt (Books as entertainment source is not a concept they have grasped unfortunately, although it makes it easy for me to steal plots from them as a DM =p). That in mind we've only had two Drow.
One a female rogue who would've been played better as a forlorn elf, and my own a male who was outcast for being too soft and went into a Duskblade school. Was fun to play a shy, unassuming character that cringed and hid himself when confronted by the racism, most of the ones I've seen played elsewhere tend to respond with the traditional "I'm a PC, shut up and do what I say" arrogance usually seen in Darths and Droids =p
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So you guys all played nasty evil drow? Really?
Yes Drizzt had friends, but he wasn't a real drow. He turned his back on drow and was hunted by real drow. Drizzt was an emo angst elf with dark skin.
and just curious, seriously here, how many played a drow BEFORE Drizzt came on the scene? Did you play it as evil? Did you play it as good or neutral?
Let me ask you one more thing... how about playing a bearded devil that is good? or if too powerful an imp?
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Let me ask you one more thing... how about playing a bearded devil that is good? or if too powerful an imp?
I've seen good Gnolls, good Orcs (for some reason we see Orcs as an honor-based Klingon like society...), good minotaurs, and good Tieflings as well.
I hate to break it to you, but RA Salvatore did not invent the anti-hero OR the fish out of water.
Gnoll or half-gnoll seems awfully popular among people who want to play the reformed monstrous races.
An imp would be great fun. If you can have fallen angels I don't see why not redeemed devils.
My favorite is the goblin, tho.
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So you guys all played nasty evil drow? Really?
Yes Drizzt had friends, but he wasn't a real drow. He turned his back on drow and was hunted by real drow. Drizzt was an emo angst elf with dark skin.
and just curious, seriously here, how many played a drow BEFORE Drizzt came on the scene? Did you play it as evil? Did you play it as good or neutral?
Let me ask you one more thing... how about playing a bearded devil that is good? or if too powerful an imp?
If we're constructing timelines here then Drizzt predates 'emos': Maybe he was just a goth?
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Gnoll or half-gnoll seems awfully popular among people who want to play the reformed monstrous races.
That's because gnolls are wicked cool. Giant hyena-men are just plain cool, but I wish they were a little more hyena-like in Golarion. In my world, they are highly matriarchal, with puny males whimpering in submission to their dominant female rulers. Hyenas have a very interesting, complex social system and an odd cross between pack and solitary lifestyles that I like to apply to gnolls. In short, gnolls are awesome and 1337.
Plus, they just look f***ing badass.
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So you guys all played nasty evil drow? Really?
Yes Drizzt had friends, but he wasn't a real drow. He turned his back on drow and was hunted by real drow. Drizzt was an emo angst elf with dark skin.
and just curious, seriously here, how many played a drow BEFORE Drizzt came on the scene? Did you play it as evil? Did you play it as good or neutral?
Let me ask you one more thing... how about playing a bearded devil that is good? or if too powerful an imp?
I would love to play an evil drow, but our group usually restricts all alignments to good or neutral. Just because you ran away from home, doesn't mean your a good person.
I never played a drow character before Drizzt came on the scene, because my first introduction to D&D was through the Icewind Dale Trilogy and the Forgotten Realms. I started with 2nd Edition and missed the stuff beforehand.
Again, I would love to play an imp, especially in Korvosa, but I don't think I'd be given the chance. Playing the "familiar" of the party wizard would be great as an imp!
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Let me ask you one more thing... how about playing a bearded devil that is good? or if too powerful an imp?
I've seen good Gnolls, good Orcs (for some reason we see Orcs as an honor-based Klingon like society...), good minotaurs, and good Tieflings as well.
I hate to break it to you, but RA Salvatore did not invent the anti-hero OR the fish out of water.
My group works on the idea that a creature is not evil by nature, that any being if raised differently or away from its society could very well be a good or neutral alignment rather than evil.
Even if a drow grew up in his society, why does he have to be evil? There are non-evil drow in the Second Darkness adventure path is there not? They even live in the capital!
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If we're constructing timelines here then Drizzt predates 'emos': Maybe he was just a goth?So you guys all played nasty evil drow? Really?
Yes Drizzt had friends, but he wasn't a real drow. He turned his back on drow and was hunted by real drow. Drizzt was an emo angst elf with dark skin.
and just curious, seriously here, how many played a drow BEFORE Drizzt came on the scene? Did you play it as evil? Did you play it as good or neutral?
Let me ask you one more thing... how about playing a bearded devil that is good? or if too powerful an imp?
Joy Division was considered to be an emo band. Emos have been around since the early 1980's, though their style was different from those pop-emos of the 2000's.
Drizzt just wanted to be real elf boy!
and just curious, seriously here, how many played a drow BEFORE Drizzt came on the scene? Did you play it as evil? Did you play it as good or neutral?
I recall drow PCs being the "cool" thing to do well before Drizzt came along. Most were the outcast anti-drow lonely good guy cliche (which was well known long before it became a "drow" cliche), but evil was also represented.
I will agree that AFTER Drizzt they nearly all started to be a LOT like Drizzt. But Drizzt really grabbed a gaming standard and built an icon of it, not the other way around.
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I've seen good Gnolls, good Orcs (for some reason we see Orcs as an honor-based Klingon like society...), good minotaurs, and good Tieflings as well.
Back when Orcs were LE (2nd ed), we had very Klingon-inspired Orcs, and the GM, when this was pointed out, said, 'Wait 'till you meet the Romulan Dark Elves...'
Being a big hyena fan, I'd love to play a Gnoll at some point, preferably a Druid with a hyena companion (and, eventually a hyaenodon companion).
Yeah, R.A. Salvatore, tapping that 'sympathetic monster' vein that had already been tapped by Bram Stoker, Mary Shelly, etc. before him. Hardly the newest idea on the block, but still with some appeal.
I'm pretty sure the "Drow as a PC" ball got rolling probably around the time that . . . um . . . Drow were presented as PCs in Unearthed Arcana (1E). Good Drow also got introduced at this point in time, because, well, two of the classes that Drow could take were ranger and cavalier, and at the time, both classes required you to start out as good aligned.
There was even an issue of Dragon around this point in time with a whole bunch of tips on using Drow as PCs, including the ways that a Drow character might end up on the surface and not evil.
That having been said, much like with Elminster and the Seven Sisters, TSR (and WOTC, to a lesser extent) decided, "hey, if its popular, why not put out 4,578 products featuring it?," which tended to skew, for example, how rare a character like Drizzt should be, or how rare the Chosen are, since its hard to feel as if something is "rare" when every other product on the schedule features them.
Oh, and I really did have an NPC Drow that dual wielded falchions in a campaign before Drizzt came around, mainly because it was a racial ability of Drow to be the only race that could do it without taking massive penalties, and I still lament that something that was a Drow trait was morphed into a ranger trait so that it could still be tacked onto Drizzt during edition changes . . .
Spell resistance might still be too good for a +1 LA, you'd have to try it and see.
In published APs, spell resistance is very likely to be a drawback and a massive one. There aren't that many spellcasting threats (and most of them are overleveled, which, in combination with LA, makes SR not effective against them). You will need buffs and, maybe, even healing/status removal in the middle of combat far more often. And SR interferes with them. Drow as-is are barely worth +1 LA in 3.5 (they get extra +2s for key abilities of classes, levels in which you, as a general rule, should never ever sacrifice); their written +2 LA makes them gimped to the point of being completely unplayable. In PF, where all core races are buffed, I can easily see Drow being allowed without any LA at all. I'm not even sure that this will place them on the same level as humans, because, again, SR harms more often than helps unless the campaign is extremely heavy on spellcasting foes, including mook spellcasters.
Almost every drow I have seen played is a Drizzt clone anyway.
I pity you and your poor D&D experience. I wish you some of the people I played with over the years, because I've seen plenty of drow who have almost nothing in common with Drizzt.
Wanna try something different, plan an ogre, or a kobold or ANYTHING but yet another Drizzt wannabe. Sometimes and NPC race should just be an NPC race. Drow are evil through and through. If you're not playing it as evil through and through you're not playing a drow anyway.
That's racist. It's like saying "if you play a dwarf that is not a sociopathic alcoholic with severe hygiene deficiency,named Stoneaxe Ironfist, you're not playing a dwarf"
So you guys all played nasty evil drow? Really?
Played nasty evil drow. Played good drow. Played neutral drow. Played non-nasty evil drow.
Got a lot of potential.
Yes Drizzt had friends, but he wasn't a real drow. He turned his back on drow and was hunted by real drow. Drizzt was an emo angst elf with dark skin.
That's a load. It's easy to hate something for being a stereotype if you dismiss every non-stereotype occurance out of hand.
and just curious, seriously here, how many played a drow BEFORE Drizzt came on the scene? Did you play it as evil? Did you play it as good or neutral?
I wasn't playing D&D before Drizzt came on the scene. And, as I said above, I played everything. None were really anywhere near Drizzt. There might all have had the same race, one or two had the same alignment, but that's still worlds away from being a clone.
Some were close to Liriel in general outlook, i.e. not really evil, but still coloured by their experiences and education they got from growing up in a big drow city. Those characters, where a benevolent heart clashes with a malevolent upbringing and the cultural standards and values of something very alien to humans, can be a real blast to play.
Let me ask you one more thing... how about playing a bearded devil that is good? or if too powerful an imp?
Of course! There are fallen angels, so redeemed devils are possible, too. It's not for every single character, but every once in a while, something really out there, like this, is tremendous fun.
Perhaps there should be an NPC class that is functionally equivalent to the Humanoid type.
I'd say that's too powerful. It's not meant to be a good alternative to any other classes. It's supposed to be a "better than nothing" part. That means the bare minimum (d6, maybe even d4 as HD; weak BAB, weak Saves; 2+ skill points with no class skills; no weapon proficiencies)
You could allow them their first level normally, so they have some identity, and then fill up "LA levels", though.
I tried on several occassions to play a drow. My first DM hated elves and half-elves. My one elf character lasted 5 minutes of actual game time. Half-elves lasted until they entered town and then they were lynched.
Tell him I said hi, and that he is no longer allowed to run games. You don't let players suffer for your irrational, dumb, precudiced opinions.
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I played a decidedly wicked, spiteful drow wizard in a campaign set in Menzoberranzan in FR, back in the 2e days. The entire party were lesser nobles in a drow house. It was fun, but we were all playing them thoroughly evil. No angst, no emo, no regrets. hehe
On the subjetc of alignment, I kind of like the way alignment was handled in the Ebberron setting. It was taken more on a case by case basis. You could encounter an honorable, even noble orc. Then you could encounter a completely vile copper dragon. Who seemed good or evil depended more on your perspective and how they treated you than on a writeup in the MM.
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These elves retreated to the Darklands as to ensure their own survival and had to resort to some harsh measures. Does this justify them as being whole heartedly evil and deserving of their obsidian skin and white hair and red eyes? Personally I think not because humans resorted to cruel Barbarianism during this time. Anyway I cant view them as the corrupted evil as seen in previous editions of D&D, but a very harsh expansionisic survivalist race
I think their face heel turn towards evil and corruption had less to do with environment, and more to do with rejecting the gods and embracing the worship of demon lords. Had they survived the harshness of the darklands and become cruel, practical and hard-edged, they might be evil by surface standards, but not inherently corrupt (like the duergar). Because they bargained with Demon Lords with such family-friendly portfolios as torture, murder, perversion, lies, etc. they have become tainted and show visible signs of their rejection of the gods and embrace of demon-worship.
(Unlike Lamashtu or Asmodeus worshippers, they aren't even worshipping a Demon Lord (or Archdevil) who is already considered a god. They have turned away from even the one quasi-legitimate Demon Lord to worship!)