Here's something I've never understood: First, there are a lot of leaders of nations that are evil (though generally lawful Evil). Second, that many monsters are both common, humanoid, and Lawful, yet for some reason they get no nation, while, say, the elves (Chaotic)and the halflings (who tend to be thieves)do. How does this make sense? Why wouldn't a hobgoblin have a nation that's every bit as civilized as one belonging to humans or dwarves? Why should kobolds be reduced to wimpy tribes, prone to infighting? After all, Lawful Evil people may/will try to cease power (humans do it all the time)but they won't fight amongst each other for who is get big shiny rock.
Not to mention, why are goblins depicted as total morons in Pathfinder, but still have 10 Int? Just wanted to complain about that while I'm ranting.
some settings do allow for hobgoblin civilizations but its true that its not as prevalent as it should be.... I've been reading the eberron books lately so those examples come to mind first. Darguun is a center of an emerging hobgoblin nation that outsmarted its human counterparts in Breland. In Droam a diverse medley of monsters mix to form a loose nation....powerful inhuman realms are lacking in rpgs but they're out there typically wedged in some forgotten corner behind a shielding mountain range next to some lava fields.
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Here's something I've never understood: First, there are a lot of leaders of nations that are evil (though generally lawful Evil). Second, that many monsters are both common, humanoid, and Lawful, yet for some reason they get no nation, while, say, the elves (Chaotic)and the halflings (who tend to be thieves)do. How does this make sense? Why wouldn't a hobgoblin have a nation that's every bit as civilized as one belonging to humans or dwarves? Why should kobolds be reduced to wimpy tribes, prone to infighting? After all, Lawful Evil people may/will try to cease power (humans do it all the time)but they won't fight amongst each other for who is get big shiny rock.
Not to mention, why are goblins depicted as total morons in Pathfinder, but still have 10 Int? Just wanted to complain about that while I'm ranting.
It's not just Pathfinder that treats goblins as idiots. D&D has traditionally related to the little green guys as a race of simpletons, apparently only because they're physically weak. Many, including myself, found Pathfinder's re-treatment of them, where at least they have personality, to be an improvement. Though truthfully, the Pathfinder depiction seems to indicate goblins should at least be chaotic; and their behavior indicates more of a Wisdom penalty to me than anything else. Of course, the stats don't back this up.
The larger problem is one I've dwelt on before, as well. It's part of the traditional cliche culture which makes my stomach churn when looking over most traditional D&D settings. They make almost no sense. It's not that there is so much a human-centric view, although that definitely exists (but I have no problem with it and think may settings would be better off with only humans, perhaps broken into ethnic groups). There's a Tolkien-centric view. Some people may debate me on that, but can any other explanation so easily address why everything is in the hands of humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings (Tolkien's civilized races) while every other race, no matter how numerous they are as a race or how many other races their are, get nothing? Even gnomes get no lands traditionally, and they're in the PHB. But, they weren't in Tolkien.
I love Tolkien to death. He's one of my personal heroes, and I can't help but get wrapped up in Middle Earth on a regular basis. But what works for one setting does not necessarily work for all. I agree, it's a fallacy and a flaw with a lot of common D&D.
So there's my thoughts on why it exists. What have I done about it? Changed it. One of my long-running projects is to review every culture-bearing race in my setting (the number of which I consciously limit) and revise them so that they actually have a personality and make a bit of sense. (See spoiler below)
The goblin-kin (I hate the term "goblinoid") are one of the major forces of the world, a constant threat to the other races and their lands. Hobgoblins are a race of mercenaries, but also engage in campaigns on their own. It's similar to the traditional D&D image of the orc, swelling in population until they have to spill forth over the other lands to reduce their numbers. Except hobgoblins are disciplined, orderly, and are playing to gain territory and carve lasting states. They are very much like the historical Spartans, since the Spartans are such a perfect model for them.
Kobolds like tunnels and such, and thus aren't usually a problem for human or elven kingdoms. Dwarves, on the other hand, are always threatened with the loss of their clanholds to such threats (and actually have lost far more than one or two such holds to the little guys).
@Saern: That sounds like the kind of game world I like to dm/play in myself.
It's simply more INTERESTING, besides being more 'believable'.
I like the directions Eberron took D&D with this, mainly with Orcs and the Goblinoids.
Al-Qaeda was a great example of this, in the 2nd Edition ruleset.
In Golarion, I don't really see the Orcish barbarian tribes as "all" that different from the Kellid barbarian tribes. Both seem inclined to use their martial prowess and adaptability to environment to supplement their meager technology/ economy with extracting tribute from trade caravans and the like, not to mention settling power disputes. Not much different than (real world) Human Barbarian "Mongol Hordes". Perhaps being more stereotypically Lawfully inclined, Hobgoblins could be similar to any martial nobility caste like Samurai or Crusader Orders in the real world.
You can SAY Orcs or Hobgoblins or whatever are more towards one extreme, but NOT stopping it there and making them a 2-dimensional cartoon, but rather, allowing for multiple cultural currents, an older holistic culture that was supplanted by a war god, etc, just gives players more ways to intereact with these NPCs than simply butchering them all.
The connection to Tolkien I think is pretty apt, and I think modern players and fantasy fans are ready for a much broader world than he envisioned. Much has been written on his correlations of "darkness" and savagery/evil, akin to the world-view espoused by Europeans as they conquered the rest of the world.
In my campaign, most nations are made up of a mix of different races.
For example, elves, goblins (and hobgoblins and bugbears), trolls, and hags lived in the Gloaming. The native confederacy is made up of goliaths, shifters, and raptorans. One colonial power is made up of aasimar, humans, celestial elves, half-elves, half-drow, gnomes, different, raptorans, halflings, and warforged. Another is also made up of humans, different elves, different halfings, and different aasimar. A gothic-viking culture is made up of humans, dwarves, gnomes, tieflings, and (not necessarily LG) gold dragons.
Thier Name escapes me right now but thier was a unified force of Monsters who had taken over a whole plane of existance (with rivers of green slime as I recall) in Monte Cook's Praeml world (Ptolus) I remember them from the picture of the Mindflayer with the Beholder mount :)
I have often pondered this problem, and I liked the Scro from Spelljammer as an example of what could be done with the orcs if you gave them a little cohesion and smarts as a group.
In my own homebrew there is an arctic continent known as Fimbulia that is home to the orcish race. They are Mongolian-style nomadic, and follow the seasons of the frigid plains, but some enterprising members learned shipcrafting centuries ago and set off in large viking-style raiding fleets to nearby continents. One continent was occupied by a race of non-aggressive elves who hadn't had much contact with other sapients. The orcish vikings now own a third of that continent. Even worse, a group of merchant/mercenary humans came to the elves 'aid' vs. the orcs. They now own another third of the continent.
Meanwhile the seafaring orcs (known as the Seawolves around the oceans of my homebrew) have sailed far and wide, planting colonies in many out-of-the-way places. They are excellent sailors and fighters, and are justly proud of their martial tradition. They have also evolved their culture since their departure from Fimbulia (much as the original vikings morphed into the Normans) and are much more socially dexterous. Orcish (Fimbulian) sailors are a staple in every port city on my homebrew.
Thier Name escapes me right now but thier was a unified force of Monsters who had taken over a whole plane of existance (with rivers of green slime as I recall) in Monte Cook's Praeml world (Ptolus) I remember them from the picture of the Mindflayer with the Beholder mount :)
The Pactlords of the Quaan. They took over a demiplane (the Quaan) as a home base, but they are more like a cell-based terrorist organization than a nation.
In my campaign world the only 'civilization' of surface dwelling humanoids is that of hobgoblins, who I depict as a theocratic nation a la Red Hand of Doom. Orcs, goblins and bugbears are depicted as tribal societies. There is one reason for why these have no cities--one of the first adventures the pcs were in involved raiding and destroying attempts at building towns by goblins, who were then driven into the wilderness.
I've posted some of this before, but here it goes again.
Orcs: Orcs tend towards CN in my homebrew, with evil tendencies, but not enough to warrant automatic armed hostilities with most other races, save dwarves. Orcs live in mountains, but are not subterranian like in most settings. Since they live on the surface, they do not directly compete for space with the dwarves, though there is some competition for what agricultural land can be found in the mountains. That, racial prejudices, and philosophical differences (dwarves being lawful) keep them bitter enemies which fight on contact more often than not. Nevertheless, orcs are sufficiently proficient with architecture and engineering and other sciences to make their own cities, forge their own objects of metal, and generally conduct themselves without always having to raid their neighbors. Travelers are still advised to stear clear of the warlike people, however.
Dark Elves: I don't use drow. My dark elves essentially look like any other elf, and they live on the surface. They're just cold-hearted, evil bastards. They are still matriarchal, but I've also extended that trait to all elven society. They constantly fight a hidden war with their high elven kindred (which are almost statistically identical, and those two comprise the only kinds of elves in my setting). At the outset of this war many thousands of years ago, the dark elves bred servitor races out of slaves: the goblin-kin. Gnomes yielded goblins, elves yielded hobgoblins, and orcs produced bugbears. Dwarves were resistant to the process and humans hadn't been born yet.
Goblins: Imagine a race of green Gollums, without the schizophrenia or the hacking cough. They are clever, they are tricksy, and they are evil. Goblins tend to incorporate defenses into their lairs; but whereas kobolds make traps which require no operator, the goblins typically employ simple mechanics like levers and wheels to set off the devices they come up with. Goblins do not live in caves, but rather tend to inhabit any delapidated, ruined, or otherwise infrequented buildings they can find.
Bugbears: These are the only cave dwelling primitives in my setting (save troglodytes, but they live so far underground they are rarely encountered). Like orcs, they live in the mountains, typically in small family units in whatever cave they can find. They do exist by raiding. They are generally rabble and, while dangerous to the unwary and inexperienced traveler, constitute no real world or political presence/force.
Gnolls: Woodsmen beware. The gnolls dwell in the forest. They lack the sophistication to take on elves, so they rarely inhabit the same woods as the ancient elven civilizations. Gnolls are chaotic, and as such also tend to fall into tribal arrangements. They tend to take slaves from whatever races they encounter, using them to construct villages reminiscent of the eastern Native Americans. Of course, the gnolls are also universally hated and thus typically can't expand or develop much as a race without getting attacked and smacked down by the other peoples.
Ogres: Ogres are the inbred descendants of an ancient empire of giant-kind which collapsed thousands of years ago. Raiding parties of ogres are found in the low-lands, but the real centers of their power are in the mountains. There, they inhabit the crumbling remains of titanic cities carved out by the giants long ago. The ogres still have the skill to make basic repairs and keep the colossal buildings from absolutely falling apart, and they know how to make frighteningly large and effective arms and armor. The cities they inhabit tend to have terraces for agriculture, as well; but for such large beings in such a dilapidated state, lowland raiding is necessary for sustenance.
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At the outset of this war many thousands of years ago, the dark elves bred servitor races out of slaves: the goblin-kin. Gnomes yielded goblins, elves yielded hobgoblins, and orcs produced bugbears. Dwarves were resistant to the process and humans hadn't been born yet.
That's a neat spin. I also created a tie between Gnomes and Goblins and Elves and Hobgoblins, but hadn't really found a good oppositional race to the Bugbears. In my imagining, Gnomes and Elves are at least partly fey creatures, and represent the 'Seelie' side of the Lands on the Other Side, while Goblins and Hobgoblins are the twisted 'Unseelie' versions of Gnomes and Elves, living in equally baroque and fantastical castles and domains in the Shadow Court, as a distorted mirror image of the elegant and shimmering courts of the High Elves (very 'romantic fantasy' with impossible spires of crystal and all that noise, it's the land of the fey, after all, and who knows how much is real and how much is glamour).
What exactly the 'Seelie' counterpart to Bugbears is, remains unknown.
Perhaps there isn't one. Perhaps the Seelie answer to Bugbears was destroyed, or never came to This Side and remain only in the lands of the Ljosalfar.
The Gnomes, Elves and Goblinoids would have lost their Fey type, in the transition, but retain some aspects of their heritage, and have a deep and abiding hatred of one another, remembering ancient feuds that have spanned both worlds and millenia...
Dark Elves, in such a setting, would be replaced by Hobgoblins in many cases, but the existence of demon-worshipping fiend-blooded elven 'tieflings' who seek to regain the innately magical heritage they have lost in their separation from the world of the fey by infusing themselves with the powers of the Abyss, would also blur things. So there could still be 'Drow,' even if 'dark elven' mirror image race would actually be Hobgoblins.
I decided to sever the elf-fey connection in my world as part of my effort to reduce "elf bloat." At the same time, gnomes really needed a more clearly defined place. I took all the tinker elements out of the gnomes, put those with the dwarves where it seems more appropriate, and left the gnomes as the only fey connected race.
Elves did have a mystic origin, however. Rather than just explaining the loss of that supernatural nature to some kind of devolution over generations, I made it a distinct event which is important in elven culture, and requires some explaining.
All the "elder races" were born from elemental spirits. Elves were creatures of the skies, dwarves awoke from the bones of the earth, orcs were born of fire, and tritons were the first aquatic race (the eldest of the gods were the four elementally-linked ones of my homebrew, but the god of fire slew the goddess of water, and the aquatic races of subsequently fractured throughout history into locathah, sahuagin, and merfolk). The gnomes were fey spirits born of the world itself, rather than any element. I'm still working on where halflings come from (generally, my players don't like them, and I don't use them much as a DM, so half the time I'd just a soon remove them from my games).
Each elder race is also associated with a sin (for a reason that's too long to explain here): dwarves with greed, orcs with wrath, and elves with pride (again, the aquatic races typically get left out because they don't interact with the "important," i.e., land-bound, races; and because of their broken history). Because of that hubris, the early elves refused to enter the world and become mortal along with the other races (no, they are not the eldest or the first-born in my setting).
The elves didn't descend into the world until the Nether Lords (illithids, etherguants, and the like) had nearly conquered the Material Plane and threatened to bring war to the sky itself. Then the elves entered the world, did battle with the Nether Lords, defeated them, and cast them back underground. In order to keep them there, the elves had to work a spell so great that they needed to sacrifice their immortality and innate magic in order to cast it. That is why elves are no longer inherently magical. Their tradition of arcane study is unrivaled, however. This led to futher problems. That arcane tradition ultimately came from those defeated Nether Lords. Though all the elves agreed to study that power, some advocated banning certain forms of the magic; others said the race should master it all to replace what they had lost. The two sides came to blows and have never gotten over it. That's the origin of high elves and dark elves. Take a guess as to which side wanted unlimited magic vs. curtailed magic.
So, there's the long story of why gnomes are connected to the fey and elves aren't, yet still have a supernatural origin.
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All the "elder races" were born from elemental spirits. Elves were creatures of the skies,
Neat stuff, and lending itself well to fantasy settings that portray elves as riding giant eagles (greyhawk, the realms) or griffons (dragonlance).
Connecting orcish rage with 'a fire in the belly' is interesting as well, and could lend to something like the Pathfinder Beta notion that a Barbarian could summon up an 'Elemental Rage' that allows them to do some extra fire damage with their physical attacks, as their blood literally begins to boil, and steam pours off of their skin as their eyes and mouth radiate glowing red heat.
For one of my settings, I have the hobgoblins' country as a Stalin U.S.S.R. - crossed with Spartans. Goblins' country pretty standard (i.e. humanish), except it tends to be dirtier, and some of the less valuable lands, being forced out by stronger species. Kobolds have a remote country separated from the rest by impassable mountain ranges.
Bugbears, orcs, gnolls, and lizardfolk tend to be tribal. Bugbears and orcs tend to live in the northern regions, along with tribes of humans and the dwarven country.
Gnolls tend to live in the plains areas and are primarily raiders and bandits, they despise cities and the beings that live in them (have several NE druids leading them usually).
Lizardfolk stay to the warmer and wetter climates, jungles and swamps, and also are very nature oriented, and while they find cities distasteful, they are more likely to get along with beings from them. As long as their lands are respected.
Dark elves rule a forest kingdom (I use standard elves' stats) beside another orc kingdom (forest as well). And both are near a forest ruled over by fey/plant creatures/monstrous humanoids.
Large cities (especially port towns), has all of the races present to one extent or another. Orc labors are useful due to the natural strength. Hobgoblins make good soldiers and guards. Kobolds are master craftsmen. Goblins often are willing to do the menial labor. Dark elves are always doing "charity work" and trying to "uplift" the downtrodden (recruit them into their cults and then for the worthy ones change them into useful servants of the Seamstress. Things like Aranea, Ettercap, chitine, cholodrith, and driders for the special elves.)
Also in this setting, humans and lizardfolk are the "old" races (humans claim to be the oldest, lizardfolk say both were around originally), while the rest are the "young" races.
Saern: that is very interesting world building. I like how your creatures have history apart from just being footnotes or constant pawns for darklords. Of course a lot of that POV comes from Tolkien in which the monsters are actually constructs rather than races.
In my campaign world the concepts for monsters (it being a very humanocentric world) runs to this:
1. Ancient civilizations that are dying or nearly dead: includes elves, yuan-ti/lizardfolk/dragonkin/kobolds (last dying remnants of the Reptilian Empire, ruled by dragonkind long ago). These civilizations have societies made up of wanderers, lonely hermits, cults, secret societies disguised as humans or savages in wilderness areas. Much rumour and superstition exists about them.
2. Savage brutal monsters that replace the 'savages' concept. I have to admit that I blatantly use orcs, hobgoblins, goblins and so on as 'savages' in my game. They have tribal societies, they do awful strange rites, they practice headhunting or some other goshawful barbaric thing and you get experience points for killing them. A good goblin is a dead goblin. The only thing these creatures think cities are good for are for smashing up and looting. Looting equals 'pretty things to dangle or hold as trophies, foodstuff, livestock, weapons and armour.'
3. Things from the ancient world: these are weird but semi-natural monsters that mostly can be found haunting mysterious ruins or lurking in forgotten places of the world; they are more or less like living dinosaurs and are sometimes uniquely intelligent beasts but are more often animals with a possible strange ability.
4. Things that Should Not Be: these are summoned demons lost in the world, alien beings that came through a rift of some kind, etc.
5. Undead: 'nuff said.
Saern: that is very interesting world building. I like how your creatures have history apart from just being footnotes or constant pawns for darklords. Of course a lot of that POV comes from Tolkien in which the monsters are actually constructs rather than races.
In my campaign world the concepts for monsters (it being a very humanocentric world) runs to this:
1. Ancient civilizations that are dying or nearly dead: includes elves, yuan-ti/lizardfolk/dragonkin/kobolds (last dying remnants of the Reptilian Empire, ruled by dragonkind long ago). These civilizations have societies made up of wanderers, lonely hermits, cults, secret societies disguised as humans or savages in wilderness areas. Much rumour and superstition exists about them.
2. Savage brutal monsters that replace the 'savages' concept. I have to admit that I blatantly use orcs, hobgoblins, goblins and so on as 'savages' in my game. They have tribal societies, they do awful strange rites, they practice headhunting or some other goshawful barbaric thing and you get experience points for killing them. A good goblin is a dead goblin. The only thing these creatures think cities are good for are for smashing up and looting. Looting equals 'pretty things to dangle or hold as trophies, foodstuff, livestock, weapons and armour.'
Okay, see, that doesn't add up. All these races sound Chaotic Evil, not Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil.
Not flames, but a minor correction. Melkor/Morogth created his perversions out of pre-existing stock; i.e., he captured elves and ents and bred them into orcs and trolls. So, elves were still the oldest. Tolkien was pretty adamant about them maintaining that status. The problem arises when other milieus decide to do the same, with the same insistency, for no good reason.
As an aside, I thought that the orcs in the movies were being bred as well, though in some unnatural way; rather than being crafted like a machine. Just my impression.
Returning to the general topic at hand (or rather what the conversation as evolved into), I tend to dislike including real-world biological explanations for the origins of races; i.e., evolution. Though the subject fascinates me (I'm pursuing a minor in Biology), I prefer my fantasy more, well, fantastic. That's a guiding principle in my world design and how I go about coming up with racial identities and histories. Thus you get things like the elves descending from the stars and choosing to give up their powers; and the other races being born from elements before that and also "awakening" to mortal life in the world. Though I prefer a low-magic world, when it comes to origin myths, I ask "Why let science explain it when you can use magic?"
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New Xorg in the Mystara setting.
I was working on that one on the vaults of pandius.
Established by Wizards to 'civilize' orcs by providing them with homes and jobs (in a massive granite quarry). The Government is Lawful-Neutral despite the Orcs. There are steet fights but but the Ogre Citywatch Keep it in line. They get Paid to quarry stone and deliver their stone to the Traders Market at the GuildTower where they are bought. Orcs Stealing from hard working Orcs wind up dead.
Appart from that its a company town and they get their homes for free (magebuilt Stone).
Sorry for any confusion--what I meant was more or less what Saern said. One of the issues about orcs in Tolkien for example is that there don't seem to be any females.
Anyway there's no reason why savage cultures can't be lawful; they just aren't necessarily city builders. For reasons largely like Saern's I prefer to keep things simple.
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Anyway there's no reason why savage cultures can't be lawful; they just aren't necessarily city builders. For reasons largely like Saern's I prefer to keep things simple.
Indeed, tribal cultures are usually more taboo-laden and tradition-bound (and have much harsher penalties for lawbreaking!) than the largest 'civilized' societies.
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Anyway there's no reason why savage cultures can't be lawful; they just aren't necessarily city builders. For reasons largely like Saern's I prefer to keep things simple.Indeed, tribal cultures are usually more taboo-laden and tradition-bound (and have much harsher penalties for lawbreaking!) than the largest 'civilized' societies.
I always thought Goblins with their Scrounge culture were ideal for a primitive mining civlization.
THE OBSIDIAN SCROUNGERS OF KARA DAG
They scrounge for obsidian in the ashcone of a dormant volcano and trade obsidian to a nearby (5o miles away) neolitihic human community in trade for Food and Woolcloth.
Celeborn and Galadriel are both alive and well, so they have no children.
But they once did.
Anyway there's no reason why savage cultures can't be lawful; they just aren't necessarily city builders. For reasons largely like Saern's I prefer to keep things simple.Indeed, tribal cultures are usually more taboo-laden and tradition-bound (and have much harsher penalties for lawbreaking!) than the largest 'civilized' societies.
I always thought Goblins with their Scrounge culture were ideal for a primitive mining civlization.
THE OBSIDIAN SCROUNGERS OF KARA DAG
They scrounge for obsidian in the ashcone of a dormant volcano and trade obsidian to a nearby (5o miles away) neolitihic human community in trade for Food and Woolcloth.
That mining idea is neat, I like it.
Yeah, I do depict the 'savages' of my campaign world as lawful; they do in a way honour treaties and have their own laws.
Rezdave: you make a good point about Tolkien and females--we're talking after all about a writer who seems to only feature women as very minor characters.
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I love the idea of monstrous humanoids having nations, especially hobgoblins. But I don't think giving them "a hobgoblin nation" goes far enough, because then that whole nation is just pretty much the same two-dimensional hobgoblin=warriors image as always, just on a larger scale. IMO, to really get it right, you'd need multiple hobgoblin nations. Actually, for me, this is true of any non-human race. You have a dozen human nations, why only one dwarven homeland, or one elven homeland? Then all dwarves, elves, hobgoblins, whatever are pretty much the same. That's one of the reasons why the elves in Dragonlance worked so well - there were at least 3 different elven nations, each with a very different character.
Anyone ever read David Eddings' Belgariad? There were these bad human nations called the Angaraks in the east. First you met the Murgos - dark warrior types. Then the Thulls - superstitious farmers. And finally, once you really dislike them all, you get to the Nandraks who are just out for money and hate the other Angaraks too! I see that as a great model for a couple of hobgoblin nations. Somebody mentioned Stalinist Russia for hobgoblins. I've also heard of Nazi Germany (or Prussia). Why not both? Why haven't they conquered the world? Because they are locked in battle with each other!
In my mind, hobgoblins favor divine magic over arcane and might be a good source for some of the steam-tech and gunpowder I'd like to see in a home campaign. That made me think of Iron Kingdoms, specifically the Protectorate of Menoth. But then I thought, why not make all of the Iron Kingdoms hobgoblins! Stick them on the other side of the world from the human-centric continent and you've got a great bunch of enemies/rivals/temporary allies who are starting to come across the ocean looking to trade, found colonies, introduce new religions and technologies, and generally stir things up.
Why haven't they conquered the world? Because they are locked in battle with each other!
Thanks! I think I'll apply this to my own setting. I've already got three dwarven homelands and four elven kingdoms (two high elven, two dark elven). Worried about detailing these cultures and other human kingdoms, I'd kind of left the hobgoblins on the back-burner and homogenous. They control one empire, but it extends from a high desert plateau to low coastal lands; so I think I'll just split the culture along those lines while still leaving the single empire (which is larger than any other kingdom in the region).
[nerd ramble]
Since we're veering into Tolkien more and more, and it's one of my favorite subjects, I'll chime in again. One of the reasons Tolkien may not have written much about females is that he was trying to capture a modernize version of Anglo-Saxon literature; which, as anyone who has read Beowulf knows, is extremely male-centric. Tolkien also had a large group of close male friends, fellow professors: the Inklings. All pretty common knowledge.
The female characters he did write about were strong. Eowyn defies her father, yearns for a different life than she has in Rohan, rides to war, and eventually avenges her fallen father and fulfills the prophecy leading to the Witch-King of Angmar's destruction. Celeborn is pretty back-seat to Galadriel when it comes to leading Lorien, since Galadriel is from over the sea and has one of the three rings while Celeborn, a Sindarin elf if I recall properly, is not so mighty. And of course there is Luthien, one of the two central characters in the story closest to Tolkien's heart and the literary representation of his own wife; Luthien, who casts a spell powerful enough to make the original Dark Lord fall asleep (in D&D terms, I'd say his lust got the better of him and he kinda-sorta willing failed his saving throw). So yes, there are women, and they tend to be strong women.
It's not really a defense of Tolkien, just a deeper explanation. The sparsity of women and of romantic interaction in his books has always been one of the major criticisms against him. He made other consessions to the Anglo-Saxons literary style in order to write a more engaging and modern novel; he could have made another here, but he didn't. I actually applaud the movies for their development of the story of Aragorn and Arwen; it was there in the footnotes of the trilogy all along, and I'm glad Peter Jackson decided to bring it out and make it a larger plot element.
[/nerd ramble]
Actually why Arwen had a much bigger part, especially in the first movie showing up instead of Glorfindel was because Jackson didn't want to introduce another character just for that part. He thought the audience would be confused by why this character was showing up and then disappearing.
- Elrond's wife Arwens mother not making an appearance
In 2509, Arwen's mother Celebrian (Daughter of galadriel)was captured by Orcs in the Redhorn Gate and was tormented and wounded. Although she was rescued by her sons and healed in body by her husband, Celebrian remained troubled by terrible memories and she chose to leave Middle-earth the next year. Thats why she is not mentioned much in the book.
Celeborn did not have a ring it was Galadriel but she did not give it up - She was also of a more noble Noldor (D&D Grey Elf)family. At the end of the war of the ring Galadriel chose to return to the undying leaving poor old Celeborn to look after the last of the elves of Lorien.
Cirdan gave Narya - his Ring of Power - to Gandalf, for he perceived that the Wizard would need it. As Lord of the Grey Havens, Cirdan oversaw the departure of the Elves across the Sea to the Undying Lands, and it is said that he remained in Middle-earth until the Last Ship set sail.
As for prominent/powerful (not only physically) female characters there is:
Lobelia Sackville-Baggins: Saruman, the traitorous Wizard, came to the Shire in September of 3019 and seized power from Lotho. Lobelia threatened some of the Chief's Men with her umbrella when they came to put up sheds at Bag End. She was arrested and imprisoned in the Lockholes.
Goldberry: The river kings daughter - she was the embodiment of a powerful nature spirit. The Hobbits loved her she was not remote like the female elves.
There was Shelob and the great granddaughter of the Ungolant.
There are others but I have already started to rant (pet peeve about people complaining that there were no (not enough) prominent strong female characters in LoTR).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Interesting ideas all around.
Hobgoblins: My Hobgoblins are mongols. Lawful evil still but marauders and riders as well as foot soldiers. They don't have an empire because, well, they're nomadic and they do have infighting problems. Every so often you have a Gengis Khan type rise up. Hobgoblin is a human term, and a good way to get throat punched is to compare hobgoblins and goblins.
Orcs: Orcs wish they were that good. Orcs are primitive despoilers for the most part, take land, use it up, move on. 'advanced orcs' are ones that have moved from hunter/gatherer/pillager to agrarian. They still raid outside their land, and have no qualms about despoiling someone else's land. Half orcs actually come from the 'advanced' orcs and are the result of trade and some hoenst trading, not just the raid-em-and-rape-em mentality.
Goblins: Influenced by Paizo Goblins, mine are like vermin, ADD twisted backwards gnomish engineeering vermin.
Drow: I've really considered having the drow being the first elves, created by the 'great old ones' who some escaped and devolved into surface elves. I've also thought of using the dark elves of the scarred lands. No corruption, no fallen elves, that's just the way their gods created them. I also have an Elistraee analouge just because I don't like a race that is irredeemable.
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Drow: I've really considered having the drow being the first elves, created by the 'great old ones' who some escaped and devolved into surface elves. I've also thought of using the dark elves of the scarred lands. No corruption, no fallen elves, that's just the way their gods created them. I also have an Elistraee analouge just because I don't like a race that is irredeemable.
Interesting idea there, and the idea that 'dark' elves have innate magical powers and stuff might come from having a purer bloodline than that of the surface elves. Perhaps, in a nod to Golarion Gnomes and 'the bleaching,' the deep elves who stuck to the 'old ways' scornfully refer to the surface elves as the bleached ones, considering them to be little more than pale shadows of the true elven bloodlines, faded in coloration to match the thinning of their ancient blood, and the equally ancient power of that blood.
Perhaps the surface elves are already, to the drow, 'half-elves,' due to their thin blood (which may not have thinned from interbreeding with other races, no matter what the drow scornfully say, but do to leaving behind 'the old ways' and 'the old gods'), while the people that the surface elves call half-elves are, to drow sensibilities, mongrel humans with a smattering of elven blood, no more, and certainly not 'half' anything. (Just as tieflings are nowhere near 'half' fiendish in parentage or dragontouched kobolds are nowhere near half-dragons.)
