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My group will be playing the Council of Thieves AP when it comes out next month (very excited, by the way!) and, given the Cheliax / thieves / urban direction of this AP, I was wondering if maybe James and / or some of the writers could give their thoughts regarding any classes that might be particularly well suited OR particularly ill suited. I'm sure the initial response is, of course, any well balanced party will work but I'm thinking there will be some obvious classes on both sides of the coin.
For instance, with a title like Council of Thieves, I would think Rogues would be VERY well suited, if not critical. In fact, would a party that is maybe more heavily leaning toward Rogue be better or advisable?
On the other side of the coin, I'm wondering if a Paladin in this AP might be a bit of a liability or at least more of a challenge to play, given the Cheliax setting, the implied level of interaction with thieves and other less than savory types etc.
On a similar note, since I read elsewhere that this AP will be more centered in cities and less in the wilderness, maybe Rangers will be more of a challenge to play and have fun with?
As I said, I'd love to hear any thoughts or comments on this from James and the rest of the Paizoans involved in putting this AP together.
Thanks!!!
I thought James's opinion was that a paladin is always a liability.
;-)
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I know you're looking for some thoughts from those involved, but I'd thought I'd throw my 2 cp in.
On a similar note, since I read elsewhere that this AP will be more centered in cities and less in the wilderness, maybe Rangers will be more of a challenge to play and have fun with?
Don't forget about Favored terrain (urban) and Favored enemies (Outsider, lawful). I'm sure there will be a campaign trait that makes Rangers an excellent choice for this AP.
As for Paladins and clerics, who knows? Maybe they are undercover for the church.
I might be running this bad boy too. I already have a guy thinking about a duellist/rogue type of character when I told him where it takes place.
Creative Director
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Characters who get on well in urban environments will feel the most comfortable in this AP (although the adventures do periodically wander out into the nearby woods a few times... never further than a day's travel from Westcrown, though!). Characters who have ranks in Perform (act) will be particularly helpful in the 2nd adventure. Characters who are gung-ho House of Thrune supporters will not have a fun time.
But one thing we strive to do for all APs is to try to make sure that they're fun for EVERY class. Even in a case like Council of Thieves, which is set in a city, we try to make sure that the druids and barbarians have stuff to do. Paladins should work pretty well in the campaign, in fact, presuming that they're not delusional "The House of Thrune and Westcrown's Government is fine, we shouldn't want to change!" paladins or paladins who use their code as a flimsy in-game excuse to be a stick in the mud. There's a lot of interaction with rebels (although not of the freedom fighter kind—the rebels in Council of Thieves the PCs ally with are pretty mellow and non-violent for the MOST part), but the Council of Thieves itself is the bad guy organization of the AP. The PCs aren't trying to join them and become thieves themselves in the adventure path.
Anyway, as usual for our APs, we'll be releasing a Player's Guide for the AP, and it'll go in to great detail about what players should keep in mind when creating their characters.
James, any info on a release date for the aforementioned player's guide? Will it be available before the adventure releases?
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Creative Director
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James, any info on a release date for the aforementioned player's guide? Will it be available before the adventure releases?
It will probably be available about the time the adventure releases at Gen Con. We might get it out a week early... and it probably WON'T be more than a week late.
Best: Rogue, Bard
Worst: Cleric (the first target to get assassinated) :) or Paladin (code of conduct in Cheliax yikes) :)
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she
respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying,
not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those
in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or
chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten
innocents.
Actually, all joking aside, Paladin could very well be the most interesting and most challenging class to play in this AP. You'll probably get killed, but whatever! In the meantime it would be really interesting being a Paladin in Cheliax.
Best: Rogue, Bard
Worst: Cleric (the first target to get assassinated) :) or Paladin (code of conduct in Cheliax yikes) :)Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she
respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying,
not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those
in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or
chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten
innocents.Actually, all joking aside, Paladin could very well be the most interesting and most challenging class to play in this AP. You'll probably get killed, but whatever! In the meantime it would be really interesting being a Paladin in Cheliax.
I gaurantee that the code of conduct won't be as restrictive. It'll allow for moderate Paladins withoit the addendum, don't be a jerk. It only happened once to me, but it happened, and it happens alot. It'll still happen, but at least it won't involve the jerkadin just reading the class description and following the letter, not the word.
At least I reckon so from the staffers posts on the matter. Dr. Jacob's here, and others I'm sure, seem to really hate that kind of paladin, labelling it the most disruptive class in the game.
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Best: Rogue, Bard
Worst: Cleric (the first target to get assassinated) :) or Paladin (code of conduct in Cheliax yikes) :)Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she
respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying,
not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those
in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or
chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten
innocents.Actually, all joking aside, Paladin could very well be the most interesting and most challenging class to play in this AP. You'll probably get killed, but whatever! In the meantime it would be really interesting being a Paladin in Cheliax.
I gaurantee that the code of conduct won't be as restrictive. It'll allow for moderate Paladins withoit the addendum, don't be a jerk. It only happened once to me, but it happened, and it happens alot. It'll still happen, but at least it won't involve the jerkadin just reading the class description and following the letter, not the word.
At least I reckon so from the staffers posts on the matter. Dr. Jacob's here, and others I'm sure, seem to really hate that kind of paladin, labelling it the most disruptive class in the game.
Yes, they've already stated that a Paladin CAN group with a known evil character at least ...
Even playing a "moderate" paladin (how else would you survive in Cheliax, you'd have to turn a blind eye a lot of the time), I still think the class would be interesting to play in this AP. Not interesting as in "how do I not break the code of conduct", but interesting as in interesting to roleplay, make choices, moral dilemas, etc. WITHOUT being disruptive and a pain in the butt. This is a (longish) campaign, no one wants one play with a campaign killer that long.
Anyway, hopefully the AP is a good read, I'm ordering it but I'm not sure when I'll get to DM it between scenarios, Runelords, and Legacy.
Even playing a "moderate" paladin (how else would you survive in Cheliax, you'd have to turn a blind eye a lot of the time), I still think the class would be interesting to play in this AP. Not interesting as in "how do I not break the code of conduct", but interesting as in interesting to roleplay, make choices, moral dilemas, etc. WITHOUT being disruptive and a pain in the butt.
Okay, I agree with that!
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Creative Director
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The thing I'm actually most eager to see happen is folks seeing the Council of Thieves AP and realizing that it's NOT a super evil-all-the-time, mustache-twirling place. Cheliax's leaders are diabolists, and the official state religion is Asmodeus, and that means that the government is indeed evil, but the majority of its civilians are not.
The thing I'm actually most eager to see happen is folks seeing the Council of Thieves AP and realizing that it's NOT a super evil-all-the-time, mustache-twirling place. Cheliax's leaders are diabolists, and the official state religion is Asmodeus, and that means that the government is indeed evil, but the majority of its civilians are not.
We're already used to that... Korvosa was like this to some degree. I haven't started CotCT yet, but I have a group of L/Gs and L/Ns lined up (including a Paladin) who want to see the city improved and the government changed. Should prove all kinds of fun in that AP.
If I were putting together a party for CoT (and who says I won't run it someday?), here are the classes I would recommend:
- a Ranger (an urban variety with good Stealth and investigation skills - maybe even a variant Urban Ranger from the 3.5 SRD)
- a Cleric (of Milani, for maximum rebelliousness and healing support, with the Good, Healing, or Liberation domains)
- a Wizard (specifically an abjurer, for nullifying and protecting against devils, secondary focus of offensive damaging spells)
- a Bard (with high ranks in Perform - act, and some decent enchantment/illusion arcanery to support the Wizard)
And, if I had a party of five, I'd recommend the fifth class to be:
- a Fighter (for extra punching power, maybe even a variant Thug from the 3.5 SRD), or...
- a Rogue (just because of potential double-agent possibilities within the thieves' guild, but make sure he has good melee skills)
But that's just my nickel's worth,
--Neil
Your nickel's worth sounds pretty well thought out to me.
Yeah? I really like the idea of a cleric of Milani in the mix. I've been enthralled with that lesser goddess ever since I included her in a small piece for the River Kingdoms. I think such a PC in CoT could get a lot of mileage. Ditto on the abjurer.
--Neil
Personally I love the idea of a Paladin Hellknight as well. Fitting and reminds me of the early days of Greyhawk and 1st ed.
Paladins are Lawful Good, not Neutral Good. They will sometimes accept that some evil must be allowed for the greater good of all, Law brings more good then Choas does in their minds. So sometimes even evil or bad Laws must be upheld if not doing so means bringing Chaos or Anarchy. That is why they can work sometimes with LE warriors/priests in knighthoods like the Hellnights(or Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom). Clearly they will have limits on what they will tolerate but sometimes for the greater good they may allow things that would surprise you.
Would Marcus Cole from Babylon 5 be consitered a Paladin? He has the honor system down and he fights for the greater good.
Alright! Could be shaping up to be another paladin thread! Poor OP.
Would Marcus Cole from Babylon 5 be consitered a Paladin? He has the honor system down and he fights for the greater good.I thought he was a ranger! :D
<insert joke drumroll>
~Smite Bad Joke Attack~
Hey Marc, I was a little unclear: what pieces were you responsible for in KQ10?
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Hey Marc, I was a little unclear: what pieces were you responsible for in KQ10?
Wow, I just saw this ... sorry I did not reply sooner.
Sorry for the off topic sidebar here (of course, since I started the thread, I guess I get a bit of latitude :)
I did a few of the smaller black and white illustrations. I did the quill in the ink bottle in the letters section, I think one of my swords is in there somewhere, I did the scroll in ... I can't recall the article. I think that's it, although I think there will be more in upcoming issues.
FWIW, I also did the holy symbols in the Zobek Gazeteer.
Thanks for asking :)
Glad to see your stuff getting out there, Marc. Congrats!
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Characters who get on well in urban environments will feel the most comfortable in this AP (although the adventures do periodically wander out into the nearby woods a few times... never further than a day's travel from Westcrown, though!). Characters who have ranks in Perform (act) will be particularly helpful in the 2nd adventure. Characters who are gung-ho House of Thrune supporters will not have a fun time.
so clerics of Iomedae are a go?
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Even playing a "moderate" paladin (how else would you survive in Cheliax, you'd have to turn a blind eye a lot of the time), I still think the class would be interesting to play in this AP. Not interesting as in "how do I not break the code of conduct", but interesting as in interesting to roleplay, make choices, moral dilemas, etc. WITHOUT being disruptive and a pain in the butt. This is a (longish) campaign, no one wants one play with a campaign killer that long.
Anyway, hopefully the AP is a good read, I'm ordering it but I'm not sure when I'll get to DM it between scenarios, Runelords, and Legacy.
you take notes, and continue working toward a change of goverment
you help in silence those who need help and when the time coems you bring justice to the evildoers...that is how it owrked in dragonstar where being evil was legal... acting evil... well that is another issue
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Creative Director
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Characters who get on well in urban environments will feel the most comfortable in this AP (although the adventures do periodically wander out into the nearby woods a few times... never further than a day's travel from Westcrown, though!). Characters who have ranks in Perform (act) will be particularly helpful in the 2nd adventure. Characters who are gung-ho House of Thrune supporters will not have a fun time.so clerics of Iomedae are a go?
Since the second volume in the Council of Thieves AP has a big article about Iomedae, yeah. And since the guy on the cover of the first Council of Thieves AP worships Iomedae, also yeah. Iomedae is a really good choice for a PC to worship in the AP, in fact, since her faith ties in so tightly to Aroden's legacy (and since Aroden was supposed to appear in Westcrown, there's a LOT of Aroden theme stuff in Council of Thieves).
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Since the second volume in the Council of Thieves AP has a big article about Iomedae, yeah. And since the guy on the cover of the first Council of Thieves AP worships Iomedae, also yeah. Iomedae is a really good choice for a PC to worship in the AP, in fact, since her faith ties in so tightly to Aroden's legacy (and since Aroden was supposed to appear in Westcrown, there's a LOT of Aroden theme stuff in Council of Thieves).
*cue Mr. Burns* excellent... I just now have to force someone to DM it with my books :D
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Looking through the first adventure, I actually think that good characters are, if not an absolute requirement, then almost certainly going to have a much easier time fitting into the AP as written than even neutral, let alone evil, characters will.
That said, however, I can see some really interesting ways you might turn that on its head for a neutral or evil party - I just think it will take a fair amount more work from the GM, and I wouldn't suggest trying to mix moral alignments much unless you're feeling really bold and have some good roleplayers around your table.
Yeah, I've gotta say, Seltiyel seems like a bizarre choice to be one of the iconics for this adventure. Sure, he fits into the setting perfectly, but he derails the plot from the very start. Why would he want to join the rebels--or for that matter, why would the rebels want to recruit him? Contrariwise, paladins are actually an excellent choice for the adventure, as the ideals of the Children of Westcrown are exactly the sort of things Paladins do in a deeply corrupt city.
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Yeah, I've gotta say, Seltiyel seems like a bizarre choice to be one of the iconics for this adventure. Sure, he fits into the setting perfectly, but he derails the plot from the very start. Why would he want to join the rebels
He has actually quite a personal motivation to join (or at least to support) the rebellion. Given his history, I guess that he has not much sympathy for the establishment.
Yeah, I've gotta say, Seltiyel seems like a bizarre choice to be one of the iconics for this adventure. Sure, he fits into the setting perfectly, but he derails the plot from the very start. Why would he want to join the rebelsHe has actually quite a personal motivation to join (or at least to support) the rebellion. Given his history, I guess that he has not much sympathy for the establishment.
Seltyiel although he is lawful evil doesnt mean he's best buddies with everyone lawful evil. According to the alignment write up, he will do whatever he can within the confine of the law. Cheating, backstabbing, and taking out the competition (as long as you dont get caught) are certainly not above him(even tho he is lawful).
Putting on a mask,hood or helm, and trying to mess up what the current government has going on, so he can better his own situation is right up seltyiel's alignment's ally.
as for rebels taking him on, how do they know he's lawful evil? It's not written on his forehead.
Our group has in it a lot of fighting power: A barbaian, A ranger and a Fighter. We also have a wizard/druid.
Come Part 2 a player will be adding a monk who is taking some non class skills (bluff, disguise, disable device) to cover the fact there is no rogue.
We've had rogues in our past two AP's and honestly, we're tired of rogues. We also want to see if we can actually find/remove traps and open doors without one. Which was one of the reasons the trapfinding rules were changed.
So the roguish monk (with no levels ofrogue should be interesting.
Playerswereall built with 25 point limit and the dang monk still couldnt come out with a decent charisma!
We found at least in the first parts of the module (still havent fought the bastards yet) We needed as much fighting capacity as we could get! Plenty of sword swinging todo.
In fact more than twice, if wedidnt have the barbarian, we would have had TPKs all around.
Fighting Hellknights almost was a TPK and we went after Whitechin the goblin king and that was darn near a TPK.
Oh one more thing, The monk is taking acting, we figured for the sixfold trial comming up SOMEONE should have some acting ability (with a 10 CHR? ewwww)
A cleric of Caiden Cailean (sp?), ready to set up an underground railroad for slaves would be a great PC for this game, IMO.
Duelling is going to be an important part of giving it that Venetian feeling, so a Duellist is very apropriate. Anybody have any Dueling Codes they've used before? What are the rules for poring arms in
Urban Ranger is excellent as well. Makes for a good spy/agent for a noble house.
The only class I cant see being all that great to play in this AP is the Druid. Flimsy reason for the druid to be here in the players guide too. :)
Everything else works well enough though Rangers should go Urban and Paladins are a tightrope walk to play. In the guide they mention that imprisoned paladins cant do much good, I agree and its worth mentioning again. Reminds me of Paladins in Sigil.